A well thought out answer. I am for legalization, with not so nearly involved a perspective. I don't really use it myself, but I say go ahead and let the people do as they like. If It becomes a problem, we'll find solutions.
@zeitgeist057 Thanks for your kind compliment.As to your point, "what the heck, there is no tomorrow." In effect, you propose a great big giant social experiment, with human lives as the guinea pigs and the blythe assumption that if - more likely when - problems arise the society will merely snap its' fingers and - PRESTO! - problem solved.Probably not. Imperfect beings are not apt to act perfectly. More to the point, not every problem has a solution. Some problems are just difficulties that must be managed as best they can be. Solutions being either outrightly ephemeral and elusive or as apt to cause as many problems as they solve.There is a "jump into the pool and see what happens" flippancy in your thinking that does not conduce to either prudence or good judgment - and all in the name of mere self-indulgence. I am not sure that is the foundation for a good society - and therefore for those who live in it, not least the young and the vulnerable.
We are already part of a giant experiment, (aka life on Earth) and we don’t have much control over the outcome, or even each other. People are indulging in much more damaging behaviors than recreational drug use, if any attention and focus of our resources is to be made, my vote goes towards more pressing matters such as human trafficking or environmental preservation.
I misspoke saying “we’ll find a solution”, I meant more that whatever happens we’ll just cross the bridges (or not) as we come to them.
But you are absolutely right my view is shortsighted and has already admitted, not nearly as well thought out as yours
@zeitgeist057 You are using cliches as a substitute for thought. Society, as indeed, life on earth, develops organically. (Which is not to say predictably as that is not given to imperfect beings.)That said, it is one thing to adapt as necessity requires. Quite another to consciously choose a course of action the consequences of which cannot reasonably be foreseen, and for little better motive than self-indulgence. The point of life to point us toward reason and virtue, not recklessness and self-absorption.That all said, if you can see that you are being shortsighted, are you not then, for yourself and those you know, obliged to think more deeply and carefully? The internal logic of moral nihilism as apt to lead to pot smoking as the gas chambers if left to themselves unchecked by the requirements of reason, prudence, temperance and forethought.
P. S. Appropos of my last point, I also offer another quote from Edmund Burke whom I cited above:“Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites. ... Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without. It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters.”
What do you think about the comparison to Prohibition, that people do it anyway, it finances criminal behavior, etc? Or are you against the legalization of alcohol as well?
@zeitgeist057 Imperfect people will act imperfectly and alcohol was far too deeply woven into the culture, going back to even religious observance, to neatly disentangle it from law. Where the law aggresses too heavily against human habit, habit is apt to prevail.This NOT being an inherently good thing, but a mere fact of life. Alcohol then presenting problems to be managed as best they can be.However, you can take that too far. Segregated lunch counters were once accepted as "just the way things are." Take that rationale to its' logical conclusion and you end up with Jim Crow.However, in an interactive process, societal attitudes began to change in certain quarters and the law was then changed both to immediate effect AND to leverage a change in social attitudes. Thus today segregated lunch counters would provoke outrage where once they produced a shrug.The question pertaining to legalizing marijuana then, is it beneficial and do its consequences invite as many or more problems than it solves? Are those consequences predictable and manageable, and if not, is the more prudent course to maintain the restrictions and thereby reinforce a social ethos of disapproval?Put me in the latter category. You ask about alcohol. Given its' costs in blood and treasure then, the obvious question is, "Why does society want another alcohol?"
As for clichés, “one in the hand is worth two in the bush”: that’s a cliché, but if you’re willing to take on the argument that “two in the bush” is better, I’m happy to listen to you reasoning.One thing you said a few times now is that it’s “for mere self indulgence”. Is self indulgence something to be avoided?I don’t necessarily agree that recognizing my shortsightedness means I am then obligated to think more deeply about the subject. To use another cliché, “the best laid plans of mice and men often go astray.” that is to say, we can cognate all day long, take action on something we thought was brilliant, and end up with a disaster. Not to say we should just go willy-nilly every which way on everything, but again, I don’t really think legalization of marijuana is such a big deal that we’re going to throw society into another dark age.
@zeitgeist057 In terms of self-indulgence, it depends upon the cost. I buy and read books and that is a self-indulgence. If I drink to excess and then drive, that too is self-indulgence, but apt to end in a very different outcome.When we deal in law and society then, the price gets higher. Humans can raise to great heights - or sink to incredible depths of depravity. The latter as likely to occur more often and the price to be paid by society.See also my Burke quote above.As to yourself, that is up to you. If you feel no moral obligation to be more than you are, then by all means remain shortsighted. However, as society usually does, the individual usually pays the price of his shortsightedness.The logic of your argument is that to be no more than what you are is sufficient. This differing you from the beasts of the field how, exactly?As regards your point about marijuana, you have made your viewpoint known so I, having answered the question above, will not attempt to persuade you further. Here again, the judgment of it being "no being deal" is being made by someone who starts by saying he knows that he is shortsighted and living in the moment.That not being a very promising start to making your case.
Looks like a super bots opinion, lol
@lokeshdh00 Thanks for your kind compliment.
Please provide evidence that Marijuana requires you to expand government beurocracy and the court system.So you agree that alcohol and tobacco should be illegal? Personally I want to see guns gone too, alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, guns, they're all just dangers on our societies, especially when they are in the house where they can be accessed by kids, I grew up in a rural area where kids often got ahold of their parents guns, I heard many stories about accidental shootings, plus legal guns requires a bigger government and courtsystem. If we ban guns, alcohol, and tobacco, we can create a safe country and also reduce the size of our government.
@devilman666 How else would you regulate marijuana's consumption and assure that it is sold only to those 18 to 21. That it is monitored for quality control. That violations of its' usage are charged and addressed in a court of law?These things require a large regulatory and legal apparatus. Indeed, look at alcohol. Just the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms - 5,101 employees, including 2,630 special agents and 842 industry operations investigators. The agency's 2020 enacted budget was $1.274 billion. Please note, this does NOT include the costs involved in a jury trial and so on.Please also note the large regulatory apparatus just to keep standard consumer products such as things as simple as beef or children's toys safe. There is a whole area of law that deals in these issues.The bottom line is that civilization is expensive and the more you expand the range of things that government must monitor and regulate, the higher the cost and the more dependent upon the state you become. The problem with Americans being that they fail to realize that freedom is not simply letting go the reigns, but it is structuring society in such a way as to prevent liberty from becoming mere chaos.As the 18th century British statesman and political philosopher put it, "To make a government requires no great prudence. Settle the seat of power, teach obedience, and the work is done. To give freedom is still more easy. It is not necessary to guide; it only requires to let go the rein. But to form a free government; that is, to temper together these opposite elements of liberty and restraint in one work, requires much thought, deep reflection, a sagacious, powerful, and combining mind.”
I dunno if I would call that much of an expansion of government and especially not expansion of the court system. Yes you need people to regulate it but you're blowing it way out of proportion. I already made the point that even if we take away alcohol, guns, and tobacco, the government won't shrink much.1.3 billon dollars is chump change to the government of the United States, not only that, it makes a net profit from taxing the sales of these products. You're acting like they're spending hundreds of billions of dollars on nothing, they are spending a relatively small amount of money of regulating something that literally pays for itself.Civilization is expensive, without our supply lines we would crumble. We are so powerful yet so fragile. That said, you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.As for your tangent about americans failing to realize that freedom is not simply letting go of the reigns, I have no idea what you meant. Sounds like ideological babble to me.I agree that liberty and restraint need to be balanced, we need freedom but also we need safety from criminals. I agree with the quote, that does not mean I agree with you. Please tell me how legalizing weed fundamentally damages or endangers either our freedom or restraint? Short answer, it doesn't, it just adds a few more employees into near useless branches of the government to regulate things. It's good for jobs, the economy, and the government, and it doesn't increase government power in any way, as you tried to imply earlier.
Also as for the court thing specifically, I didn't touch on that, but I can do so quickly. It is a stupid argument, the courts already deal with a lot of problems to do with marijuana possession, if anything the statistics from other countries and states that have done this say that court cases tied to marijuana go down after legalization.
So just for reference, in 2019 tobacco alone generated 12.46 billion dollars of revenue.www.statista.com/.../You're making a mountain out of a molehill.
And by the way that is just for the tax, that is 12.46 billion dollars straight to the government, that more than pays for all 3 of them and gives a small profit on top, and I repeat that those numbers are only for tobacco, alcohol and gun sales generate billions in revenue as well, and I can get those numbers for you if you are interested.
@devilman666 Yup, we generate huge tax revenues off of alcohol and tobacco - and plenty of corpses to boot. It begging the question if it is a good society that looks on indifferently as people commit acts harmful to themselves and to those around them.To be clear it is NOT my central argument against legalization that it will cause an expansion of the state and the costs of same. Rather, that is part of my argument, the core of my argument being rooted in Aristotle's first questions of politics - "How ought we to live? What kind of a people do we wish to be?"As I noted, we shape our laws and then our laws shape us. Once upon a time segregated lunch counters generated a shrug of the shoulders. Then a slowly gestating ethos resulted in changed laws that reinforced the changing ethos in a virtuous cycle. Such that the late conservative columnist Joseph Sobran wrote in the 1980s that he would get up and leave the room rather than listen to the kinds of things that were routinely said about blacks at his grandfather's table when Sobran was a boy.Put bluntly, your willingness to tolerate an expansion of the regulatory and taxing powers of the state sits inconsistently with your demand that freedom be expanded to allow for the legalization of marijuana and the collateral damage it may cause. (In reference to that, see also this article from the Washington Post - /www. washingtonpost. com/national/potent-pot-vulnerable-teens-trigger-concerns-in-first-states-to-legalize-marijuana/2019/06/15/52df638a-8c9a-11e9-8f69-a2795fca3343_story. html)There is a pitiless abstractness and disrespect for life in your quasi-libertarian arguments. Thus did I open with the quote from Burke above.
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republicans are for states rights look to alaska just depends on place all partys made money incarcerating weed smokers
Republican states hate weed? Then explain Alaska, Montana, South Dakota, Mississippi, etc
I said "pretty harmless". If you can show how it's more dangerous than alcohol or tobacco, I'm sure the experts would love to hear about it.
ever read about a father killing his wife in front of his kids over a cigarette? a son killing a mother or a father over cigarette? people committing over a cigarette?
@Sabretooth If you can show how it's more dangerous than alcohol or tobacco, I'm sure the experts would love to hear about it.
nah im always growing my own or buying dealer fuck the government they the ones that made money putting people in prison for weed now they want make money on it.
if it was legal it would become harder kids get it there dont need be laws about its usage besides dont drive on it. its not as harmful as alcohol but people retarted and smoke all the time because u can without dieing like alcohol i dont see that as addiction i see that as your own fault if its weed im high 1-4 days a week but i dont get high during work and i get everything done. it should have same laws as alcohol or cigarettes.
Sorry but I have a bit of difficulty understanding you so I hope I understand and answer you well enough in this reply.Actually, I do support legalizing marijuana if you understood what I said. My only reservation is that governments, historically, don't or can't properly implement their guidelines and laws. I hope you understood that. You said that there shouldn't be laws especially on its usage? But you see and in fact, you have even mentioned that there are "retarded" (a term i dont agree with) people who smoke all the time which means it IS addictive and which also means we do need guidelines and laws for it. You might not be addicted to it (yet) so it is easy for you to judge those who abused it but people react differently to different substances. Some people may simply have a lower tolerance to it. Also, if it is so easy to buy and get marijuana because we dont have proper and implemented laws for it, then kids, pregnant women etc could be vulnerable to it. But this might be a miscommunication so I will define it for you. By "laws and guidelines" I do not mean that we should ban it. As you have said even alcohols and cigarettes have laws which prohibits its selling and usage to minors so we should study and create laws for marijuana too. Furthermore, you said that alcohols and cigarettes appear more dangerous than marijuana but that is only because there is a huge lack on the risks of marijiuana up to this date. We haven't fully understood the long term risk of marijuana so you can't simply say that it is safe when we don't even fully comprehend it. Thanks for your opinion though.
Government weed isn’t even necessary it’s cheaper from plugs anyway and growing your own is fun so nobody cares if government regulates it. I’m saying it’s not addictive I’ve went years high everyday you can stop easily but people who lazy don’t. it takes no will power to stop. Cigarettes are far more harmful to life you leave school and take breaks from work to smoke I’ve been addicted to cigarettes never to weed. I think it should follow cigarette type regulations not like alcohol regulations.
Lol I care. In fact, mothers and fathers care, children care, schools care, churches care, many people care if the government regulates it or not. Just because you, as a user, doesn't care, doesn't mean that everbody else should just fuck off and not give a fuck. It doesn't work that way because we all live in the same place. Especially when your actions affect us then that means we would fucking care. And, your careless attitude to it is proving my point why we should have laws and guidelines for it. Again, as you seem to have missed my whole point, I am all FOR legalizing marijuana NOT just for clinical reasons BUT we should have governing laws to it such as who can buy it, who can sell it, who can produce it, where should we buy and sell and produce it, how much can a person buy, how much it would be, where can you smoke, penalties or punishments to its abuse and illegal markets, etc.You've been high everyday? seems to me that you sound addicted but are in denial but ok. Being able to stop doesn't mean you are not addicted, it just means you have a better control and willpower than most. If you aren't addicted to it then i dare you to suddenly stop it entirely for 2 years. Let's see if you dont get withdrawals. Ofc if you aren't addicted to it, I'm sure you can just not use it for the rest of your life so why waste your money to it everyday when it isn't even a need.
Also, as i have said we dont fully understand how weed affects the human body especially in the long term. Just because you aren't feeling anything, doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. Also, tell that to the many children whose lives were destroyed by their drug abusing parents. Tell that to spouses who were abused and had to leave their partner who is a drug abuser, to kids addicted to it at such a young age. Correlation does not imply causation but we can't deny the fact that drug abuse and misuse increase exponentially the risk of problems like out of school youth, broken family, domestic violence, poverty, etc. Also, what about the people around should you smoke in public places if the government does not regulate it huh? Stop being stupidly selfish and wake up. You're just not helping your cause with that "it's safe i dont care" attitude. You're screaming irresponsible user to me and you're giving a bad impression for other users too. Also, why am I even talking to someone who has "israelisevil" username.
I smoke weed everyday and weed is not something that causes abuse it makes you nervous to do things the opposite effect of alcohol. Growing up kids abused by parents there parents were alcoholics or on heroin. Parents that smoked weed were just oblivious to whats going on and if anything to leniant on it. WEED isn't A HARD DRUG it doesn't cause broken familys and kids drop out school. I havnt had 24 hours without weed in 10 years im 25 i work sober im sober when i drive but i use it every night befor bed and some mornings i got good relationship job too it doesn't effect those things. Weed is more like cigarettes the only harm it causes is harm to your lungs.I think israel is evil cause they stole my friends land in settlements from west bank and sent him to extremist filled gaza where there's no water no electricity and you have to pay hamas smuggle in medical care.
not really, i'd argue it can be just as dangerous as Alcohol- cigarettes? far more but in a different way-never heard of a person destroying their families, committing suicide, falling into a dangerous psychosis over a cigarette... have over weed, though.
not even close.
Not nearly as bad or alcohol or tobacco. Goddamn smokers and drunks
fuck legalization gunna make weed 200 an ounce and gunna make you have be 21 get it. Idc about your judgements thats your opinions but if you drink alcohol you shouldn't complain about something like weed the only danger is you dont die from getting high all the time but you would die if you drank all the time so there's not death as deturent to use it 24/7.
well, damn, these pot heads getting all fired up :D :D
yah same could be said about alcohol and cigarettes i wouldn't buy legal weed anyway too pricey. plus im 17 so if it was legal i couldnt buy weed anymore cause they go by alcohol laws when legallized not cigarette laws
@israelisevil 😂 My father drinks alcohol, I am 19 but never tasted it. And never will. There was a quote by one of the wisest men in India That-You don't have to burn yourself to understand Fire Burns by swamp vivakanand
By SWAMI VIVAKANAND *