Should America implement universal healthcare?

[Anonymous]

Study after study shows that it will be cheaper and better for people. America is practically the only developed country in the world that doesn't have it.

But the republicans have convinced their base that anything like universal healthcare is communism and will lead to the downfall of America and blah blah blah.

They prefer the idea that you can go bankrupt just so long as a corporate entity gets rich.

UHC will save everyone money. Studies have shown this. The examples of other countries have shown this.

The usual lies that are told against it : It's too expensive, we can't afford it, it will lead to death panels and huge waiting times, and "I prefer my current insurance".

All of which are bullshit arguments.

[Drunkfrank]

Yes, absolutely, medicare for all would life a weight off of so many people's shoulders and works in many places across the world. This idea that anything remotely helpful is some commie plot is pathetic.

[nightdrot]

Voted No, but ironically not because I am opposed in principle. The problem is that Americans have a bad habit of defining the question in starkly moral black & white terms instead of in an objective cost/benefit analysis. This tends to polarize the debate and replaces fear mongering and a shrill tone for a weighing and balancing of the trade-offs and how those trades relate to American values and preferences.

The current American system has a lot to say for it. It tends to be highly innovative. Wait times are close to non-existent. The system is designed to appeal to a wide range of needs and individual preferences as to what kinds of care an individual may wish to access and so on.

The downside is that it is wildly expensive. It tends to be very wasteful. The aforementioned accessibility is attained, in part, by treating the uninsured and unemployed using emergency room care, thereby further driving up costs and also meaning that for the low income, treatment comes too late.

A universal health care system is "free" at the point of contact. It actually tends to be less expensive because in health care, there really is no such thing as an informed consumer and therefore a real free market does not exist. Therefore, in the American system, there is no limit to demand other than what doctors examining patients say, in effect, that demand says that it is.

However, a universal system is not very innovative. Because health care workers are paid by an artificial government set standard, there are doctor and nurse shortages. This causes long wait times and sometimes scandals like that at mid-Staffordshire in the UK. Treatments are often determined by bureaucrats - see the Charlie Gard case. Taxes to pay for it tend to be high.

In the latter point, the paradox is that the whole system tends to widen, over the long run, the gap between rich and poor to the rich. The richest demographic being the elderly, the poorest the young. As health care is more used by the elderly, a universal health care system takes taxes from the working poor and gives them to the retired rich. This only partially offset by higher taxes on the wealthy.

Finally, questions of long term viability come into play in both systems as demographic patterns come into play. As the population ages, the workforce shrinks and the number of taxpayers paying into the system declines relative to beneficiaries taking resources out. This why Medicare in the United States has $43 trillion in unfunded liabilities - three times the size of the GDP.

So this then summarizes the trade-offs. These issues, costs and benefits need to be weighed against American cultural values and competing interests. It is an ongoing process that changes and will change as American culture changes and as circumstances, both short and long term, change.

The problem is that each side takes this as a moral absolute when it is really cost/benefit analysis and trade-off. In most "socialized medical systems" the costs are hidden and paid through taxes, rationing and waiting lists. Also you tend to get bureaucrats making life and death decisions - see also the Charlie Gard case. (You also tend to lose many of the technological innovations that come in a more free market system.) In an American context, historically, that has not gone down very well.

Some problems don't have solutions. Rather they are just difficulties that you have to manage as best you can. Health care is one of those. That said, the one thing that is assured is that health care will never be free. The real argument is over how it will be paid for.

[OlderAndWiser]

"Health care is a human right." Why is it a basic human right that requires that your neighbor to pay for your healthcare? Why isn't each individual responsible for their own health care?

[PhilEvans]

I think a lot of the problem is that Americans who can afford health insurance think that they'll pay more in a universal healthcare system, and think it's unfair that they should pay for poor people to not have to pay.

The US healthcare system at present is stupidly expensive. Most stats here are going to derive from here https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/876d99c3-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/876d99c3-en

Collectively, people in the US are spending $10,000 per person on healthcare. That's mostly coming from employer-based healthcare schemes for the middle-class and above. Canada has healthcare as good as the US, but it costs $5000 per person and EVERYONE gets healthcare. Now those figures aren't per insured person, or expenditure per patient - those are figures per head of population.

Let me put that another way. Everyone in the US who currently pays health insurance could pay half that money in tax instead. You'd receive the same quality healthcare as now, so most of you would save hundreds of dollars per month. And everyone would get healthcare for that money.

Why can countries with universal healthcare do so much for so little money? They don't have insurance companies taking an enormous cut of the expenditure. The drug companies and insurance companies have pulled an enormous scam on the US public. They're pulling billions of dollars in excess profits.

Lets look at an example with a common drug, the epipen. Most people who suffer from epileptic seizures should carry one, and they only have a shelf-life of a few months so need replacing even if you don't have a seizure. In the US, they "cost" $650 for a two pack. In reality, the insurer claims that they're paying that which justifies your enormous insurance premium if you have epilepsy. Instead, they're paying maybe half that at most to the drug company, and the rest is profit. In the UK, the NHS buys the exact same epipens, but pays the drug company $60 each for them. The cost to the patient is an admin fee of about $10 (that's the same for any medication regardless of cost), the rest is covered by tax. The drug company obviously don't declare how much it costs to make them, but you can safely assume they're still making a profit. So if it costs $30 to make and package them yet ends up with an insurance claim for $325 does that seem like good value?

A surgical example - I needed surgery a few years ago, a laparoscopic cholecystectomy. That's a $15000 operation once you include the consultations before, the checkups afterwards etc. Total cost to me? $10 for the course of painkillers for my recovery period.

I'm relatively well off, so I pay about $30,000 in income tax each year. Of that, 19% goes to fund the NHS, so I pay about $6,000 a year to provide healthcare for me and those less fortunate.

[abc3643]

Of course, it should. And, eventually, it will.

Why? The power of monopsony - when you have a single buyer of medical services (the Federal Government) - you have considerable power in setting prices. Furthermore, since the Federal Government is a non-profit, it doesn't need to set those prices significantly high.

Also, the Federal Government can subsidize the purchasing of advanced medical equipment and bolster medical care in rural areas (such as large swaths of red states) via this method; it would be somewhat analogous to the Rural Electrification Act of 1936 in which the Federal Government subsidized the creation of the electric grid in remote rural areas so these people could get electricity. They couldn't before that because companies could not justify the costs to deliver electric service to these few remote customers. Well, right now, rural America is getting fucked regarding medical services. These are the people who should want nationalized health care and yet they are the ones voting against it because the current HMO industry doesn't want to be put out of existence so they will use whatever propaganda they can to dissuade that.

Also, the Federal Government would be able to sway the drug companies toward making more useful drugs - drugs that are not commercially viable for drug companies to investigate. Yet, not only would such drugs be needed and useful, but the research involved would help toward making new classes of drugs.

There are oceans of reasons why, if the US went to nationalized or single-payer health system, things would be so much better. For one thing, people will live longer not having to stress about paying their medical bills.

[winterfox10]

I think we should. We have to start by gutting the insurance and pharma industry. The rates those people charge for their "services" is appalling. Basically the only reason it would cost so damn much to implement universal care in the US right now is because the people who control how money moves in healthcare charge the maximum of what they know they will be allowed to charge. It has nothing to do with what the service is worth, it's all about the frequency of the service, how the cost is being subsidized, etc..

So if you go up to a hospital and you need emergency care, the hospital has different billing options for different methods of payment. When they know you have insurance, you get billed an obscene amount, because the insurance company has dictated payment ranges to the hospitals of what they are willing to pay for different services. The government, corporations, and other regulatory bodies work the same way.

As soon as the hospital finds out that you aren't insured, that care bill plummets. It's not quite low enough to be what the service was actually worth, but it's a lot closer.

[invalid1]

I voted yes. Why?
I am not American, but I understand very well why this country couldn't achieve universal health care, it is the fear of a massive government. Now to be honest. This right wing fear is justified, but it can be addressed easily if the other side cared about public health more than anything else. Sincerely. Because yes other major countries are better than Americans in this aspect in the other side Americans enjoy something dear to them since the revolution the world is deprived from, that is freedom.
So I think if there was real genuine care about the health care human right from both sides, anything can be regulated, any concerns can be addressed.

[Chriscunning]

I think it depends on how the government and people function.

In South Africa for example your chances of recovering at home are greater.

Just read / look: https://www.ecr.co.za/news/news/health-dep-launches-probe-wentworth-hospital-after-shocking-video-emerges/ Video has been removed. A woman screaming that she can't breath and needs help. No one is there. There are rats in the hallways eating blood and faeces from dirty linen. One guy tweeted he hadn't been feed for 48 hours to the health minister.
You then get private hospitals for wealthier people and you cannot even compare. It is world class health systems.
So to answer your question, it all really depends.

[007kingifrit]

no, it would raise wait times, lower quality of care, and cause capitol flight among doctors as they leave for other professions. plus it would raise our taxes big time

universal social programs require a constant supply of more young people than old to keep funding them because young people pay more in taxes and use less tax dollars. so you always need more young people, and more, and more. its a ponzi scheme and its doomed to fail.

within the next 10-15 years the EU, UK, Canada, etc etc will all lose their socialized medicine; don't jump on a system that is mathematically unsustainable

[allaboutyou2]

No, I don't think that America should implement universal health care.
When we try to service 330 million people with the same healthcare system the quality will go way down, service and waiting time will be higher and taxes will have to go way up to cover the mediocre coverage.
There is not one thing that the government can do efficiently, I sure don't need them screwing up healthcare as well as everything else.
I was born and raised in England and far prefer the healthcare I receive here in America than I recieved in England.

[Anonymous]

Other countries don't have "universal healthcare". They have a "pubic option".
It's a basic care for emergencies and whatnot. They're always supplemented by a private sector. So when Bernie says healthcare is human right and says he wants to remove all private healthcare, that sucks. That's a *bad* idea.

Also it's not a human right because you're not entitled to someone else's labour, that's slavery. Rights are things that you can do which you can't be prevented from doing: You can speak, you can move, you can have a weapon. The only healthcare that is a right is the healthcare you provide for yourself. If you want to provide healthcare for yourself then I think that would be human right to do that.

[Anonymous]

Yes, but there needs to be some changes to the system.

1. Close the borders, and don't just let the entire world in.
2. There needs to be a mechanism to deal with hypochondriacs that will go to the doctor for the sniffles.
3. Trial lawyers need to stay out of suing doctors and hospitals for accidents. If you want this for free, then roll the dice.
4. The money that employers used to pay their employees for their healthcare, will now just be added to their paychecks. If they choose to, they can use the money to add some type of supplemental healthcare plan, above and beyond the government plan.
5. There needs to be a sin tax added to booze, smokes, pot & crap foods. That money will be funneled into the "free" healthcare system.

This is just my opinion, and I offered it for your question. I'm not going to debate my opinion, because it's a complete waste of time.

[WindAtMyBack]

Absolutely positively not.

People seriously need to quit expecting others to be their slaves. Because that's exactly what it is when you want something "for free".

It's very simple. If you want something, you work to pay for it yourself.

It's completely irrelevant what other countries do. It's completely irrelevant whether anyone thinks it's a right. A right does not mean somebody else has to pay for it.

[masonderek6994]

Healthcare isn't a human right. It's a service and you can't expect medical personnel to donate their services. They deserve to be compensated fully. It's called supply and demand. If you don't like the way American Healthcare is then move to a country with Healthcare more to your liking. A right is a freedom and Healthcare isn't a freedom. by the way Medicare for all is something people think they want but i guarantee that 85% wouldn't like it once implemented. Medicare sucks and you have to fight to get things covered then they're only covered at 75-80%.

[Anpu23]

My health insurance is the majority of my withholdings. If my taxes went up, but if my health insurance went away I'd save money. As long as the coverage was reasonable I would be good. From my Canadian friends, none have issues with their doctors or health care. Same with my British friends. Only people I know who travel for medical to the US is are quite wealthy and ate looking for preferential treatment.

[Minerate]

In theory, yes, it sounds like a good idea. But in practice, with how badly our government is with existing programs (Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans, etc), I really have a pessimistic attitude that this will be what people really want.

The track record the government has just isn't reassuring for them to try even more with a much larger population of people.

[Anonymous]

No it's a terrible system and it's not free you pay very high taxes it's funny looking at your map just go with anyone who has government running the health care ads for universal health care. In truth they pay very high taxes for worst care to the point where many people with money in those countries either come to America or pay for private clinics you need to get government out of it not more government

[MountAverage]

Of course. And only a minority of Americans are selfish assholes who don't want it, the majority of us have been in favor of it for a very long time now. It's time to join the rest of the developed world.
If healthcare isn't a basic human right, then there is no point to any other human right.

[VanillaSalt]

Not my job to pay for everyone else’s healthcare. Go to er and they HAVE to take you. Also while everyone else has such amazing universal healthcare (sarcasm) America has more innovation in medicine because of how we do things which the world benefits from.

[Kurαȷ]

Every country should implement universal healthcare.
The problem is that people are huge idiots and they don't even understand what universal healthcare is.

Example- certain older and dumber users in this comment section.

[WesBrewer]

They shouldn't because I don't want more tax increase, and just like syndrome says "when everyone [has healthcare], then nobody will [have healthcare]" just like in Canada, since everyone shares healthcare they have to wait on long waitlists to get treatment for relatively urgent things. It may sound nice to have free/universal healthcare, but really, it isn't.

[Snakeyes7]

I would love to see this in place but I don't know how we can make it work economically. Unless I am wrong we would need unlimited time, funds, resources, doctors and hospitals. Otherwise people are going to be on waiting lists which is a common complaint people have in Canada where it might take someone three months to get treatment.

[menina]

You're absolutely right. It's sad to see people dying just because they don't have money to save their lives. It's also ridiculous.
I don't understand why Americans are so against universal healthcare, in my opinion it would benefit everybody.

[penneva581]

Yes, I think it'd be kinda beneficial. Ofc there'd be down sides but if it helps people why not? There's been several instances where my family probably couldn't have afforded healthcare at all but since Canada has free healthcare we were good to go

[Nalix]

No service, or anything requiring the labor of others should be a human right. Healthcare definitely needs reform in the US, but insurance drives the prices up and won't let anyone offer a lower price. If doctors could offer lower prices, some would, and all the prices would go down. The entire industry is vastly over-regulated and making it "universal" would only further reduce choice and increase the price.

[NorthwestRider]

It is working very well in the European countries so yeah we should have it. The European countries are whooping our ass

[Anonymous]

America is the only "first world" country without universal health care. Yes, yes you should implement it if you don't want the whole world laughing about you.

[Massageman]

Whenever the government takes over and wants to help "fix" something, you just KNOW that- at the very least- something is going to get ruined. Proven it time and time again.

[Anonymous]

I am healthy and fit and young but I was born into high pollution areas with severe asthma. If I were born in the united states I would have probably died before I graduated high school lmao. I am SO glad that I live in the REAL first world.

[Anonymous]

Problem is it could be forever until you can get seen by a doctor and I mean forever because how many people are there for something and it doesn’t allow growth, there are plenty of negative side effects.

[Lunatic1]

We should, but the problem is that the healthcare industry has been privatized. It is not "financially feasible" to provide universal health care and thus our chances are slim.

[michael1469]

Since healthcare is such a major cost to small businesses, it wouod make becoming an entrepreneure easier. We have looked at insurance for our employees for the last 4 years, it would cost half of what we make. But i would be willing to pay 10k for all of my employees to be covered.

Having healthly employees is good for business too.

[Anonymous]

Americans are too fat and too lazy I'm down for catastrophic healthcare like accidents or trauma or something. But healthcare for medical problems that are self-inflicted should not be covered by the government.

[Rangers]

Absolutely not, https://youtu.be/9M0xPn07T8w

[Shah11]

I thought America is the super power
And here citizens of the super power bagging for healthcare 😂

[OddBeMe]

No, but a public option would help, like usps keeps FedEx from overcharging.

[msc545]

Yes. The fact that we don't have it is a complete disgrace.

[Anonymous]

Wait--what was Obamacare? That's still around, right? So if you don't get your health insurance from an employer, you get it through Obamacare. So what's the problem?

[undercover4ever]

Yes most developed nations have it. The United States is one of richest countries in the world there's no way they can't find the money to pay for this.

[Anonymous]

Not a Medicare for all type system you need insurance companies and the other reason is how come it's not free and not Universal China at least we have something Universal here so screw China let's make it Universal and free like I Swiss or Australian system

[crmoore]

Quite frankly, I don't know. I'm not content with our health care system, but there are some arguments as to why it is better, at least for our current progression throughout society.

[Anonymous]

At the very least we should tone the price down a little... A lot of these places and companies are open just for the sake of money, and nothing akin to actually helping people.

[OfDeath]

As an outsider looking in, the rest of the world find the American health system bizarre and frankly inhumane. Yes you should have universal healthcare. A simply levy on everyone's tax return is all it takes.

[Anonymous]

Absolutely. Health insurance should be run through the government paid for national insurance contributions.

[DWornock]

I have no objection to making health insurance available to anyone that is willing to pay for because that is free enterprise. However, I'm opposed to making it mandatory because that is slavery.

[najekim]

Although I don't subscribe to a socialist type government, this is one area I where I could see as more beneficial than what we currently have.

[Kabluie]

Remember when Obama said "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor?" with Obamacare. Yeah that turned out real well

[Twalli]

Medicare works well and it's government run. Medicaid was designed to be an imperfect short term stopgap before we got universal healthcare. Tha was under LBJ.

[Anonymous]

tbh, i'm not a fan. It's taken me 2 months to be able just to get a dentist appointment with it.

[legalboxers]

every other country has it but the red hat mafia is against it

[joeldalton]

We need a free market system. Not this hybrid BS we have now.

[Just_Me89]

Yes. They have it here in Australia and it's wonderful. People shouldn't die just because they can't afford treatment.

[Lookingforthetruth]

You have 3 attributes to health care but can only pick 2 below. Which would you want?

1. Accessibility
2. Affordable
3. Quality

[Deathraider]

Yes. I don’t think that people should have to give an arm and a leg in order to get medical attention.

[RingOfFire]

A large chunk of the world lives in poverty too. That doesn't make it desirable.

[Lιʅʅყ]

Yes but it won't ever happen

[JackofSpades]

I don't want to pay for it and it would be hypocritical to want someone else to.

So no.

[psychoticanimallover]

Africa, Middle East and USA have a lot in common.

[Anonymous]

You got the money but americans dont have the healt care right it is very stupid

[derick01]

No. This is America. Not some bs 3rd world country or lousy Europe.

[FlyGirl95]

Healthcare is a right — not a privilege!