The question has an unavoidable definition problem. "Free"
@stuntbrain That is true - but the problem remains. Call it free. Call it "socialized medicine." Call it "national health care system," call it what you will, the reality remains. Nothing is without its costs and it is a trade-off. A weighing and balancing of costs and benefits that each society decides, more or less unconsciously - though sometimes more deliberately so, according to its cultural context.
You've perfectly explained the point I'm trying to make. We can call it this or name it that but words impart a subtle bias in exactly the same way detailed cost benefit analysis is abandoned, contextually nuanced grey areas are quickly disregarded in favor of oversimplified black and white inaccuracies
@stuntbrain Well, we certainly don't disagree and said as much in my initial answer.That said, we should be careful not to chalk it up to a question of self-deceiving verbiage. This is deeply rooted in the culture. See also the national debt - the numerical expression of the nation's habit of living beyond its' means, with all that suggest about the moral consistency and intellectual honesty about the culture.We are agreed, though. My point being merely to add that the deceptive language is a symptom and not a cause.
Having free health care takes away incentives for someone to become a doctor as there would be strict rules for what doctors can charge for services under a free system. All the doctors not worth their salt would be working in socialized clinics and hospitals. If private practice will still be allowed that is where all the good doctors are. Just like with Medicare, a lot of doctors won't accept it because they don't pay much.
@Daniela1982 Yes, that is why what you find in the UK system is a shortage of doctors and nurses. The government set standard of pay is a discouragement to people pursuing medical degrees. Mixed systems are a bit more complicated, but as you can see in the USA they tend to raise costs because the demand for doctors is torn between public and private. Government has, at least in theory, unlimited resources, so this forces up prices, wages and fees in the private sector. This, in turn, forces the government, if it wishes to retain doctors and nurses, etc. to spend more than they otherwise might or lose them to the private sector. This then another reason why prices tend to be high.In a 100% public system, you get shortages, rationing and wait times. In a mixed system you get soaring prices and inefficiencies. In a purely private system, those who can't pay don't get treated. Thus it is an ongoing balancing act. As I concluded, a problem that does not have a solution but rather must be managed as best it can be in light of the public's priorities and preferences as expressed over time.
Its not cultural its masochistic! Not only do the majority of Americans love paying high taxes and high insurance payments but they also love paying high medical bills!! AND THESE IDIOTS DEFEND IT!! like wth? Wtf? Just how retarded are you mister American? So yea there you have it americans love to be raped up the butt! But hey thats patriotism for you! 🤦🏻♂️
Yep, they very much need to jump a few centuries lol
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I don’t really know about America or Canada but here in the UK NHS healthcare is far better regulated that private care, providing patients with more quality fare, albeit waiting times are often longer now too.
Insurers cover a certain % of the bill. Lowest being usually 60% .So a 6k hospital bill (about how much it costs to have a baby vaginally) would still cost the person over $2000...
2k that would be better spent on stuff for new baby.That must be a big find for some young families.Gives family planning a whole new meaning
No I was right the first time my brain is doubting itself
Yeah like myself at 17 having a $15000 hospital bill and my insurance paid 60% ... I was living paycheck to paycheck
Ouch that stings, here it’s free. Yes like me I can pay out of my salary for BUPA but that is also free at point of use.
@Smashingdoozy updates, just where is the fun in reading updates, that assumes a level of thinking and intelligence 😂😂
I see many (doctors and nurses) fight for fair wages (and rightly so!) but many still don’t want to work private because they believe in treating everyone who needs it, not just those that can afford it. Plus many I know hated private companies because they weren’t as well regulated with as high standards.
To your update, that’s why I say “universal” healthcare. I agree, it is obvious it’s paid for by taxes. It’s like saying public schooling K-12 is free. It’s common sense. 🤤
I read the updates and I still dont want free health care. Because its not free and I dont want to pay for others health care though higher taxes
Would you rather not be able to afford going to the doctor?
I don't want to deal with careless doctor they do nothing but me in pain for it. I would paid if I can better health care. The pros and cons.
How much would you be willing to pay? $300-$600 per doctor appointment?
It not in dollor.. is in ponds.. j would get a. sevier that I will paid each month.. depends on how much the doctor so going to cost and that up £100,200. .
£218-436 is the average doctor appointment cost, do you think that is reasonable/acceptable? Also, an ambulance costs £327 if you have health insurance, £727 if you dont have insurance. These are the USA medical costs converted into pounds.
So if you break an arm, and get rushed to hospital by an ambulance to have it fixed, how much do you pay?
I've never been admitted to a hospital as an adult, so I don't have first hand knowledge. But what I researched, going to the polyclinic costs around 40€. If one needs surgery, it's about 135€. But I do think going by an ambulance costs extra. For a broken arm most people would get a taxi, not call for an ambulance.
In USA it costs $2500 on average for getting a cast on a broken arm, not for surgery, just for the cast. If you got surgery it would be even more. 135 eur is about $160 usd, so it's over 10x cheaper in Finland than in USA. Just a checkup at the clinic is $300-$600 usd, not $50 USD like it is in Finland. In USA, if you have insurance, an ambulance ride costs an average of $450 dollars (after the insurance pays it's half), in Finland its 9.25 eur or $11 USD.
How it works in Holland is that we have mandatory health insurance. You pay about 100 a month and if we get into anything we have an "own risk" of about 150 that we pay before insurance chips in, but that's per year.So, I break my leg, I pay 150 "own risk", the rest is paid by insurance. Month later I do it again, insurance pays everything, etc. This could include overnight stay, ambulance, medicine, etc.
That's reasonable though, deductibles in USA is ridiculous, you typically have to pay a couple thousand dollars before you insurance will do anything. In fact the average deductible for an individual in 2020 was $4364, meaning you have to pay that before insurance does anything, till then you're paying for basically nothing with your health insurance plan. After that, the insurance pays part of the costs, depending on your plan. For example some plans will split the costs 50/50 with the consumer, some will split it 70/30, it depends on the plan you get, who you get it from, and how much it costs you per month. Oh, and if you go to the wrong hospital then your insurance pays nothing and you get stuck with the full bill.
4364 vs 150 is quite a bid difference and it's full coverage in Holland not partial.
Now you know why many Americans would ignore problems with their physical health instead of going to the doctor. Medical debt is one of the most common forms of debt in the USA, infact medical debt accounts for about two-thirds of all bankruptcies in the USA.
Or, let the government use the huge clout of millions of customers to negotiate better prices.
“Or”, huh? If you wish for absolutism, why not just eliminate the middleman and have government dictate the rules entirely and dissolve private insurance and medicine. Problem solved.
That's the British approach. The German approach is independent insurers, doctors and hospitals, just with decent regulation.
“Being constantly sick, coughing, disabled or struck with chronic diseases is for the poor or the losers but not for me.”Pretty fucking insensitive thing to say here.
@Still-alive And I proudly stand by it. If someone is fine with their unresolved medical conditions and blames everybody else but themselves until they collapse to the ground whilst calling the medics "healthcare scammers", then in my opinion they pretty much deserve what they have coming at them. To me it's part of the natural selection process - even if natural selection initially did not favor me.
So if you’re poor and stuck with outrageously expensive medical bills that will bankrupt you for life? Oh well they’re just losers in your eyes huh? 🤔
@Still-alive I was dirt poor and suffered like 10 years long with those medical conditions. And I worked to get those. The poor find excuses. Those like me find ways. Even if it takes 10 years. And the losers don't even try.
“I struggled hard and it sucked fit a long time therefore it should be hard and suck for you as well.”
“I suffered so you should suffer too”
@Still-alive Yeah, you're not quoting me, so not sure what your point is.
That’s your basics argument you suffered badly therefore everyone else should suffer too.
Tax the rich more.
HOW? They pay for the Lobbyists in congress, and they pay the "Campaign Donations" to ensure that they are not taxed. They say, that they create jobs, and with higher taxes, there will be fewer jobs, and more unemployment! Lazy Joe might try to change that, and make them pay more, but it will fail, LIKE IT ALWAYS FAILS, and the Middle Class, the WORKING people get FCKED again!
So you think it's fair that someone earning 1 million + a year gets taxed the same as someone earning 150k?
No, NOT AT ALL!! But it is REALITY! They have the 'loopholes' and the 'write-offs'! I am ALL FOR THE RICH PAYING MORE, but it just isn't reality!!I don't earn 150K in 5 years!! If you are, I wish you the best! I get paid less than teachers, and I might literally save lives, in my job!!
I'm saying tax the rich... Taxing them more would help significantly. If your work pays for your healthcare then you would actually get paid more if healthcare was paid through taxes. You would get paid your full worth.
People have been saying "Tax the Rich" for 200 years, and it hasn't happened!! Why? Because they are rich, and they pay to make the rules to make them richer!! During the Pandemic, the Richest BILLIONAIRES, just got RICHER!! Bezos, Zuckerberg, Musk, all of them!!www.cbsnews.com/.../
What country are you from
@mk200195 "Gvmt hospitals are not anywhere near to the standards expected of a hosp"? I don't know how someone can make such an ignorant and baseless statement. Do you know how many people in India still live under bpl? Government hospitals are the only way out for them, and for others who can't afford the charges of a private hosp. I've seen neurologists at private hospitals charging a fortune because the patient had an ingrown nail or a tremor induced by anxiety. Govt hospitals are doing yeoman's service for the poor and downtrodden, the doctors and staff there are qualified as per guidelines laid down by the government, treatment standards are also closely monitored by the gvmt, but the disadvantages are due to the heavy rush of patients as India is a very populous country. So, ofcourse the limited resources are stretched to the utmost. Just because they're stretched and stressed to the point of breaking does not in anyway decrease their contribution to the people. You are doing disservice to all the staff in government hospitals who work day and night without huge pay packets by stating that they're "nowhere near to the standards expected of a hospital".
@mk200195You should read my previous response. The answer you want is there. And your last para shows your ignorance on the subject that you're pretending to be an expert at. It's not surprising, you definitely do not know a thing about poverty or infact I wonder if you know what bpl is. "Rather than asking everything for free one should think of affordable services for everyone", and that's exactly what gvmt hospitals are all about.I'm not being selfish, I'm being realistic by taking in account of the condition of the people who are bpl and others who are economically backward... Perhaps you should try to stop being tone deaf. And lmao, you infact do not even know how gvmt doctors and staff gets paid😅😅🤦🏻
@mk200195Lol, what do you know? Your tonedeaf statement screams ignorance. Rather than lecturing people and talking utter non sense, be realistic and practical.
Yup, gutter mentality is exactly the description that you should be placing in your resume.
Lol, at least I'm not a boomer like you and since I don't lie, yeah , right now I'm studying and will be employed after my graduation. Thanks for your concern!
Lmao, okay. Since it's not offensive, why would you say we are doomed 😅
If you pay insurance you are paying for other people's health care
Not really. You pay according to your risk. Insurance is not a giveaway program.
"People need to stop expecting others to be their damn slaves. Slavery is outlawed, but apparently a lot of people want to bring it back under the name "free stuff"."well i guess we should just privatize or disband police and fire fighters too
@Still-alive It's not really the same, because that's a group benefit, not an individual benefit. Although personally I think the criminals should pay for the police. They should pay for locks on my doors. They are the one causing that expense, so they should pay for it.
Where does the insurer get the money to pay for your treatments?
"It's not really the same, because that's a group benefit, not an individual benefit. Although personally I think the criminals should pay for the police. They should pay for locks on my doors. They are the one causing that expense, so they should pay for it. "yes really by your logic they are slaves. none of what you said here disproves that.
"Where does the insurer get the money to pay for your treatments? "You pay for it. Which is what I've been saying all along. If you want it, then pay for it.
@Still-alive No, because criminals should be liable for the expense. It's their expense, not yours.As for fires, there is no such thing as an isolated fire. It can't be separated because an uncontrolled fire affects everyone.It's about a group benefits vs an individual benefit. If you lived in an isolated area, then you would have an argument for not paying for fire and police. Because then it becomes more of an individual benefit.
"It's about a group benefits vs an individual benefit"still doesn't disprove your logic. Slaves had to perform group tasks too back in the day after all.
@Still-alive It wasn't THEIR benefit for the most part. If some portion of what they did benefitted them, it's the same with expecting people to pay for someone else's health care. Just because some portion benefited themselves, doesn't mean they are not still slaves.
Your money pays for other people. You don't pay $5 then get $5 back do you? No you pay a set amount then when you need money you get a % deducted from your bill.
ok how about this then suppose a school bus crashes and every kid and adult on the bus is severely injured. It is now a group benefit for doctors to save them all. And lets say healthcare is free and taxes pay for all medical bills here. still slavery?
@Still-alive Yes. Just because they were all on the same bus is irrelevant."Your money pays for other people. You don't pay $5 then get $5 back do you? No you pay a set amount then when you need money you get a % deducted from your bill."You are still paying for your own insurance. You are not pay for health expenses. You are paying for insurance. You are paying for your own insurance. And you are doing in voluntarily. It's not FREE. You have to pay for it.
"Yes. Just because they were all on the same bus is irrelevant."but you just said that its not slavery if its a group benefit. Is a school bus full of children.. our future... not a group benefit? thats still slavery to you somehow?your logic is severely flawed.
@Still-alive You are the one with flawed logic. A bus full of children and their insurance are two entirely different things. If I ride a public transport bus, it doesn't mean I should be forced to pay for the insurance of everyone else on the bus. Just because we might all happen to be on the same bus when it gets in a wreck doesn't change that.
"bus full of children and their insurance are two entirely different things"so in that case that means we should privatize the police and have to pay private "police insurance" so they respond to burglaries and such in time.
@Still-alive We're going in circles now, so I'm done.
right, having moronic logic is pretty confusing huh?
@Still-alive Fuck off. We are going in circles and I said we are done. That means do NOT keep posting mother fucker.
my my so angry. im sorry you can't back up your arguments very well
@Still-alive OK you don't know when to shut the hell up. You're blocked mother fucker.
I'd rather pay insurance and not need it, than get free healthcare and need it, you make a good point though,,,
"Can't believe that I actually have to specify that by free I mean government funded and paid by taxes. Common sense people."No, common sense is that government doesn't "fund" shit.Every penny the government spends was taken from someone and usually against their will. The only thing the government does well is spend money that doesn't belong to them. And anyone who supports that is a freeloading leech.
Apparently we have a some thieves in our midst. Hence the down votes.Now that I have explained it, they have no excuse. They want to intentionally steal from other people. These people cannot be trusted.
I bet you complain when the streets are filled with trash and trees in the community have roots overgrowing.
What does that have to do with anything?
I knew you'd dislike because you've got a fancy dress nurse outfit 🤪
Yeah that wasn't me
I get my healthcare free in the UK, but I'd prefer a nurse to get paid a salary they deserve.
It's the same... Except instead of multiple insurances getting rich off of people's unused money the government just taxes us for healthcare
I guess? Perhaps there's a 3rd solution though.
Agreed. Our taxes are crazy high and yes health care is free but slow as molasses.
So true 👍
the problem with private health care is it becomes a profit making exercise and yanks are so far down the line with it that they believe they wouldn't be able to afford the small amount of tax we have to pay here in the uk
@wankiam So true, went to the US through work had to take out medical insurance luckily work took care of the premium of over £300 and that was only to cover a fortnight the insured sum was £1 million which covered everything including medi-vac to the UK if needed I have found out since that if you have US medical insurance, any treatment that you need can be refused by call center operators for the insurance companies who have no medical training they go by what the computer system tells them to accept or refuse. Thank god it hasn't got that bad in the UK!
and hopefully we never will get that bad
Fair but medicine does use the Caduceus even if it isn't correct
You aren’t wrong.
Duh. Yes. The sooner you realize it's like that and has always been an integral part of keeping a country balanced, AND yes it's also a part of the human experience. The trick is finding the joy in just knowing your helping your fellow countrymen wherever/whomever they may be. Taking care of someone however small–even if you don't them—really provides a sense of authentic joy that you can't buy with them taxes...
Any the innovation that comes from free market healthcare? What About the low wait times and the guarantee for life saving medicine not based off government?
Better than having medical bankruptcies, anything that can make medical care affordable is good.
Use your common sense
Same in other European countries. We pay taxes, that's true, but the fees are small compared to what we get in return. If you want, you can get an unlimited number of MRIs a year, which is something unheard of in the US.
common sense is a logical fallacy.
How does that work? The doctors work for free? The nurses? The utilities and building construction are free? All the equipment is free? Sounds magical.
I pay approximately 28% income tax, so it's not free but the tax covers education, Healthcare retierment plans, roads and a bunch of other stuff.
Oh so you just want other people to pay for your healthcare. At least be honest about it.
That's one way of seeing it. or you could say that i, as a healthy person is paying for the education and Healthcare for the people who isn't as lucky as me, it's called doing your part for the greater good
From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs
@joeldalton What do you think healthcare insurance is?
Soo, how mutch tax do you pay Joel?
@joeldalton he's trying to call you guys communists/socialists with that sneaky line of his
@joeldalton you pay tax to the government who them divide up the spoils.If for some reason such as due to redundancy you lose your job, then you don’t pay tax and it’s free still.Yes everyone gets paid, yes new kit etc.Yes people can go private via BUPA but even then don’t pay from their own cash other than what comes direct from wage.
because American big pharma are used to massive profits
Looks like some worthless piece of shit leftist downvoted me, how cute.. no balls to comment either.
The majority are also more than happy to.
Yep and then more than happy to enjoy americas cancer treatment as we are the best in the world at cancer survival and treatment...
You would be surprised how many people I have heard say that the government pays their welfare and not the working peoples tax money.One woman said that Obama paid her welfare!You know what assume mean?