You realise how many schools are named after the founding fathers
Yeah, but I'm talking about the Confederates. I think the founding fathers are different because they created a system that was flawed but ended up living up to its manifest of everyone being equal, whereas the confederates tried to create an inherently unequal system. George Washington had slaves, but he had the redeeming qualities of wanted a fairer system for the world, which eventually extended to all, whereas as Robert E Lee fought for keeping slavery.
It's like how Churchill was against Indian independence and Hitler wanted an empire in Europe; the former was still a great man even though he had his flaws whereas the latter was a total monster
The founding fathers created a system where all men were created equal except non whites because they were not men in their eyes. Slavery was banned in Britain in 1772 so the founding fathers were indeed fighting to keep their slaves and so they would have to pay tax on their slave plantations.George Washington was a harsh slave master. Winston Churchill never owned slaves.I just laugh at the hypocrisy of it but not to worry the founding fathers will be next on the chopping block when they run out of confederate monuments.
Still slave owners.
Still not what those monuments celebrate.
The celebrate the lives of slave owners. Some celebrate the lives of those that committed genocide.
I mean yeah the guys were racist (and sexist and classist) assholes, but asking that a country not celebrate its founders achievements because of their racism is a bit unrealistic. Honestly im not super against not celebrating them, I just don't think statues of the founders and such are comparable to statues of confederate soldiers.
Most confederate soldiers were poor men and conscripts. How about statues of union soldiers and generals who committed genocide in the west on the scale of the holocaust.
Burning all books that even mention the confederacy maybe
That is just retarded. But not surprised coming from the left.
Now they are trying to blow up the statues
I seem that.
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Exactly. Monuments don't exist ONLY to glorify whatever the subject of the monument is. They're also there to remind us of things that have happened in the past, or people who have come before us, so we can either repeat what they did or avoid repeating it. And a lot of the bullfuck going on right now about monuments is due to ignorance and crybabying. It's just whiny little twats that want something, ANYTHING, to cry about, and who live such pathetic lives that the only way they can feel important is by smashing things and attacking people. Just like their heroes, ISIS.I wonder if they'll try to remove monuments to the blacks that fought for the Confederacy?
The only way to stop extremist in all forms is to ignore it as much as possible until it hits the line of being criminal. The more press that extremists get, the more powerful their cause becomes
That's one way to do it. Cracking heads is another.The best though, I think, is turning them into a joke. It's damned hard to be scared/intimidated/whatever of something or someone if you're laughing at them.The US used to know this. That's why you see German and Japanese soldiers in cartoons during WWII as being portrayed as clowns. Watch the Donald Duck cartoon where he has a nightmare that he's a Nazi for a good example of this. Or the Daffy Duck cartoon "Destroy the Scrap Pile". There are a lot of other examples, too. If a creative-type were to make a cartoon, comic, TV show, whatever, showing antifa as the joke-ass clowns that they are, it would go a long way toward ending them. That won't happen, unfortunately, because the entertainment industry mostly agrees with them.And so the violence, whining, and stupidity will continue.
So slavery and rascism is acceptable now? Slavery was part of the Egyptian economy so yes built by slaves
You have to realize how ridicoulous your argument is when you are suggesting that because slaves existed therefore everything was built by slaves. Are you that invested in winning an argument that you are willing to debase yourself intellectually?A lot of work has been done to determine how the pyramids were built. It wasn't built by slaves. That fact isn't even necessary for your argument to be correct. Why are you so insistent on defending such a dumb position? It makes you look stupid.
@Map4Territory who fed the workers, who carried the stones?
Who feed the workers? The government. Who carried the stones? The very same workers who got well paid. Stop getting history lessons from Disney movies.
The state of Egypt was propped up by slavery, without slavery the pharohs would not have had the money to build their great tombs.
Not really. Slavery was a fairly minor component of the ancient Egyptian empire. The most important part was their farmers and craftsmen who were citizens. Slaves in ancient Egypt was something you had as assistants around the house and such things instead of the systematic slave labor associated with for example USA.
Lol don't kid yourself people were slaves to the pharohs. That's typical revisionist history trying to say that slavery in the us was worse than anywhere else in history.
Oh please. Dont make this about you. Why do Americans always have to be so defensive about everything? Are you so afraid of your own history? If it makes you feel better there has been plenty of examples of worse uses of slaves in history then America although they are very much on the worst side.
What about Swedish slavery in sure that was pretty bad?
I mean.. not really. The vikings did have a bunch of slaves but they were more of a serf then an actual slave as you think of them and it was abolished in 1335. Also again they were not used in a systematic way like in USA.
Lol so killing a person's family and carrying them off is a different kind of slavery lol
Well America should be fairly familiar with that kind of slavery but no.. Slavery comes after the whole kidnapping part and besides, Sweden did not really have any slaves in the first place because it was mostly Denmark and Norway that did the rape and pillage England thing. Sweden mostly just traded around the world.
So help me out if I'm wrong here, but your argument is essentially as follows:Everyone is equally guilty of something that could be described as slavery, so you can't criticize one person or one monument without criticizing all of them. Thus everyone is forced into a false choice of either admitting slavery wasn't that shameful or that nothing anywhere can be commemorated? That's a terrible argument that you are nakedly using not because you believe it, but rather because it allows you to criticize people you dislike. Your argument relies on a pretty open and ambiguous definition of slavery that attempts to ignore any shades of variance in people and practice. It's word games, intellectually dishonest sophistry. Why are you so hesitant to just say The Confederacy were evil, slave holding traitors who were shitty soldiers and we should all be ashamed of sharing a history with them? That's a very easy feel good thing to say, why do you want to be on the other side?
@Map4Territory mm hmm. Sweden the most powerful of the three didn't take back any Slavs in the east.The Swedish slave trade mainly occurred in the early history of Sweden when the trade of thralls (Old Norse: þræll) was one of the pillars of the Norse economy. During the raids, the Vikings often captured and enslaved militarily weaker peoples they encountered, but took the most slaves in raids of the British Isles and Slavs in Eastern Europe. This practice lasted in the 6th through 11th centuries until formally abolished in 1335. A smaller trade of African slaves happened during the 17th and 18th centuries, around the time Swedish overseas colonies were established in North America (1638) and in Africa (1650). It remained legal until 1813.
@Map4Territory If you go back and look then my argument is firstly that slaves did not build the pyramids and that the confederate monuments least offensive part was that they portrayed slavery. In fact I did not even mention slavery in my original comment because the purpose of the confederate monuments were to suppress minorities, not to remember the confederates.Besides, while the government owned land in USA is vast it has no place for traitors.
"Statens institut för rasbiologi "Been looking into racism and slavery I Sweden wow just wow
Yepp things were a bit crazy back then. To start with I think the Danish were actually the ones who Hitler took the idea of scientific racial differences AKA superior race nonsense but the Danish were just concerned that if they were indeed superior they should be aware of that so they could better assist the lesser races in their society >_<;Very different motivations indeed.
@Soteris I was responding to the asker. You are making reasonable arguments attempting to place things in an accurate historical context. The asker is attempting to equivocate multiple events based on things being vaguely related to the word slavery in order to defend The Confederacy. If he actually made an argument defending them I would respect it. I don't even think the monuments should be taken down. But I disagree in making sophist arguments designed solely to attack another side. He could have made the case that the same arguments used against Lee could also be used against Washington. But instead he is including other examples of 'slavery' in an attempt to excuse the actions of the South. The motivation for which I don't entirely understand.
I can't believe the Swedish government was sterilizing sammi women up to 1970. Are you still racist towards them?
@Map4Territory actually I'm not I just think if our morality is removing monuments of racism then why stop with confederates
Not really. Most people dont even remember they exist since they live on their own lands and the government is frantically trying to preserve their culture. If anything Swedes are quite proud of the Sami people.
But if you support the founding fathers and federal government your supporting racism and genocide. Let's not forget all men were created equal except those working on the founding fathers plantations
Um, York is a city in Yorkshire, England; isn't New York named after that?
@goaded the city of York was involved in slavery
The city was founded in 71 AD, so I'm sure it has been, more than once.They stopped selling their own people into slavery in the 7th Century. Apart from that, I can't see anything that indicates the York was any more associated with slavery than the rest of the country. Maybe I missed something?
@goaded the slave trade silly. It was a stopping point for slave ships
Are you sure? The east coast of Britain isn't really on the way between Africa and anywhere.Maybe the non-slave corner of the triangular trading scheme from Europe to Africa (goods for barter) to America (slaves) and back (sugar, molasses, tobacco)?
@goaded before Liverpool became a major port
I'm still not seeing it, sorry. Liverpool sent out its first slave ship in 1699, and York is about 30 miles inland, up the river Ouse, from Kingston upon Hull (and, as I said, on the wrong side of the country). Could you be confused by a Duke of York being involved in the slave trade?
You mean like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson?
@SuccessfulHornDog yeah they were technically traitors and slave owning rascists
Yeah, but they won.
Ohhh, are those the new rules? let me write those down and tell everyone I know
@SuccessfulHornDog It's not like the beat the British Empire or anything, but they did win the freedom for your country, and I'd have thought your country would appreciate that.Apart from anything else, I thought your country didn't celebrate losers?
So it's ok to be a traitor, a racist, a slave owner and or a participant in genocide as long as you win? These are hard things to justify
Considering almost every "important" person at the time was a racist slave owner, I suppose they didn't stand out. What's the genocide part?
Straight after the civil war the same union soldiers that defeated the confederates went West and slaughtered the native American. Union general Grant was the president that started this.
Did we skip a century? Was a memorial to Grant in any of the pictures you posted?Are they memorialising his actions during the genocide, or just in the civil war?How many of them are there?
Theodore Roosevelt: ‘The Only Good Indians Are the Dead Indians’Roosevelt: 'I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are the dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every 10 are'
Are you *trying* to point out that your country keeps electing shitty racist people to represent them?
Just that nearly every statue and monument should be removed
Is the United States the only place that bigotry is immoral? Or are you so racist that other countries and their struggles are not important to you?#entitled
@SadDude37 lol once again you missed the point compleatly lol.
No I hit the nail on the head. Stop being so superior about the USA. It's one country in the community of the world. As long as people like you preach one thing and act in a hypocritical way we will continue to have these struggles. Is your mind so closed that you can't allow others with differing views to express their opinions without being shamed? Or is it okay to bully as long as you are doing it to people you don't deem as moralistic as you?
@SadDude37 wow you are mentally deficient. No need to waste my time with your confused delusion.
No need to be personal. Mental deficiency isn't an accurate statement obviously, you have been shut down by my rehashing of your statements. If you think that other monuments aren't as important because they aren't traitorous to the US then what I've said is accurate.
@SadDude37 re-read my statements (which were to somebody else; by the way, no need to interject your idiocy). Now if you are even slightly intelligent you should see that your comments do not address my statement but rather a imagined one. Furthermore I asked you to stop wasting my time and yet you continue to comment on somebody else's observation in responce to yet another persons question. Yes, I think mentally deficient pretty much covers it.
I'm inserting an opinion, which I am thoroughly inclined to do. If you weren't looking to "trigger" people, I never would have replied on this thread.Maybe your original statements weren't coherent, after all communication is an effective dispersal of ideas from one to another. If what you put out there isn't what you meant to telegraph, the failure doesn't lie with me, but with you.Finally, you have the option to block me if you don't want to read my comments, take the easy way out and shut down
@SadDude37 you really have comprehension problems.
I think that the issues are with how you presented your point. If what I gleaned from your 3 sentences wasn't accurate, I am glad to hear what you really meant
@SadDude37 I don't give a fuck. Hey retard how long does it take you to figure out I wasn't talking to you?
Triggered yet? You say you aren't talking to me, yet you keep responding, and less and less intelligently
Well, once again, your personal remarks don't raise the intelligence bar that you seem to be so desperate to do.Thank you for explaining yourself, as I had thought the issue with the statues was purely about racism and not about being a traitor to your country. That is the way that all the major news networks are framing it.If you read the original question, you can see that I responded to the original train of thought. It was your choice to hijack his question and try to be a smartass while doing it. He didn't ask about traitors, but about slave owners and race issues. If you don't see the relevance of how other countries play into the original question, then that isn't anything I can fix.
On a personal note back to you, don't be an asshat and people won't treat you like one. As I said before, the simple fact you attempted to trigger him is what made me reply.Your opinions are poorly communicated and no one is to blame for that but you. And stop sounding so insecure by resorting to name calling because you don't have a coherent argument
@SadDude37 I was pointing out to the asker (note: not you) why certain statues are being taken down and others not. Now since this question is framed in a way that misses the point why selective statues are being removed and furthermore is suggesting another reason entirely to obviously cloud the issue into nonsensical right wing rhetoric, my responce is apt. Oh and just because you miss the point does not mean a statement is irrelevant.
The United States is the only country where being a traitor is worse than being a slave owner. Technically the founding fathers were traitors