Groups like the proud boys arose when groups like antifa were given free reign to terrorise people they didn't like.
So too the Freikorps and the Rotfrontkämpferbund. You are simply repeating the mistakes of the past.
The biggest mistakes of the past are pacifism and appeasement.
That, forgive me, is cliche. It is not appeasement to ask that government take responsibility for maintaining law and order. Should it fail to do so, democratic societies have mechanisms of accountability - not least the ballot box - to right the error.Yours is mob rule tarted up in the language of righteous indignation and it is - as I say - a path other societies have taken to a ruinous end. To repeat, "Where there is no law, but every man does what is right in his own eyes, there is the least of real liberty."
That is the problem in a lot of places. Look at Berkley the mayor was part of antifa, it's the same in other places where a very liberal leaning democrat leader is in charge, the police are told to stand down and antifa kicks the crap out of ordinary people they consider to be Nazis.
If those communities are unhappy with what they are getting, they have various means of redress, as I noted. (The courts. The ballot box, etc.)Your path leads to no good end, and as I stress to you has its ugly antecedents in history. Forget Germany circa 1930, which tends to be loaded. Look at Italy circa 1922. Look at the Cultural Revolution. In the United States, look at the KKK and the SLA.Ordered liberty, in your formulation, is an oxymoron. Cast aside the rule of law and you will not have justice or freedom. Only chaos.
I again pacifism and appeasement gives groups like Marxist, KKK, Nazis and the rest power to do what they want. Take the KKK, it was only when black people stood up to them that they disappeared.
This is the fallacy of the false alternative. That the ONLY response to such groups is other groups that employ the same methods and tactics. Indeed, the only thing such methods are likely to produce is more of the same. (By the way, where did you get the idea that the KKK has disappeared?) The absence of disinterested institutions of law will not result in stability.To the contrary, as history has demonstrated over and over, the absence of such institutions will only cause people to seek those who can offer tranquility and stability, and freedom take the hindmost.Again, you seem to be utterly unfamiliar with the antecedents in history of the path you advocate. Brute force untethered from law will not lead to tranquility - let alone to freedom - only to more brutality. About what you are getting.You may have read, what was the Blackshirt's response to the Arditi del Popolo? Castor oil in strong doses.
Time and again history has shown that appeasement and pacifism means getting trampled on.
You are using the term appeasement in an improper context. It is one thing to fail to confront Hitler over the Sudetenland, quite another to tear down the institutions of a democratic society as you would do.Your theory seems to be to burn the village down in order to save it. You appear to be misreading the lessons of history. No democratic society can survive absent the rule of law - and you will search the annals of history in vain to find a case where one has.The relations between states are governed by the law of the jungle. Relations within states cannot be so governed. Take authority away from the institutions of democratic government and you will not get democratic government. Rather you will get its opposite.
Appeasement does not just extend to foreign goverments failure to confront the Nazis but to the German people themselves.
You are definitely misreading the lessons of Germany. The problem was not a society appeasing noxious social forces. Rather it was a society that had been ripped up, root and branch. Whose habits of social relations had completely broken down - most especially because the institutions of the society had lost legitimacy in the eyes of its citizens.Burke foresaw this in the French Revolution and the story has been repeated again and again. You are vastly oversimplifying a complex social phenomenon, largely to give yourself a sense of catharsis.Ask yourself this: When one side or the other realizes that it can attain its goals through force and without recourse to law and democratic debate, what makes you think that they will stop content with that outcome? What do we know of human nature that supports your thesis?
Democratic government is far more difficult that you seem to assume - and its social prerequisites far harder to nurture and sustain.To quote Burke: "To make a government requires no great prudence. Settle the seat of power; teach obedience; and the work is done. To give freedom is still more easy. It is not necessary to guide; it only requires to let go the rein. But to form a free government; that is, to temper together these opposite elements of liberty and restraint in one consistent work, requires much thought, deep reflection, a sagacious, powerful, and combining mind."
PS - no one EVER has the right to shut down the roads/interstates by standing in the way. ALL should be immediately arrested.
That was the dumbest thing I've ever seen. A white guy yelling at another white guy and calling him a "whitey" First it is racist to attack someone only for their race which they can't control and second that idiot was white himself. What an idiot. Humans like that don't really need to occupy this planet. They are too dumb to exist.
Did you read about the Unite the Right people's "free speech" the night before the rally? You want to stand in an area and talk, that's OK, if you want to surround and intimidate people, that's not.en.wikipedia.org/.../2017_Unite_The_Right_RallyHow do you have a brawl with people who are linking arms?
Yeah. What can you do if you drive through them you dent your car, if you stop they scratch up your paint work, break your mirrors and smash your lights.
And that has happened to you, has it?
@goaded actually it has happened to me.
@goaded these nasty losers are always at this.
I don't believe you.You're pretending, now, that there are roving gangs of Antifa prowling the country attacking cars for no reason. (Which country are you in, by the way? I ask because you start commenting at 3:30 in the morning, assuming you're on the east coast.)
That last part was for WhitePanther88, I don't believe either of you, though.Show me some convictions, like I showed the convictions of the Nazi and the KKK member at Charlottesville. It's not hard to do, if it's true.
@goaded Yvette felerica got convicted.Antifa wears masks to avoid conviction.Here they are attacking a liberal.www.google.co.uk/.../...ht_an_american_flag_to.amp
Good morning. "Yvette felerica" doesn't appear to exist. Try a link.
"During last weekend's Neo-Nazi rally... Man holding a Neo-Nazi flag... "I thought Antifa were attacking innocent people who were minding their own business? Not situations like this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwk6r8TJD2UHey, you pretended AntiFa had damaged *your* car. Why was that, then?
@goaded they did damage my car, they caved my hood in and scratch my paintwork when I hit one.
What's with the racist video?
Yeah, I thought you were lying. The violent little woman was at a rally where the other side stabbed 7 people, by the way. And I can't find any reference to her being convicted of anything.
@goaded there's plenty on her and yeah she's being charged with a few things assault and inciting riots, I think she lost her job too.https://youtu.be/WYZmdZFwbkM6 antifa got stabbed after they stabbed a guy and attacked the rally.
@goaded Can you guys stop commenting here.
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Thats not what happens
So you're denying that proudboys instigate violence?
Yes antifa instigate it, they've been instigating it from the begining. It's only in the last year that they've been stood up too.
I agree antifa is a hate group.
It certainly is
Ordinary citizens you mean ordinary people living their lives? There are no Nazis or facists for antifa to fight that's their biggest problem so they brand everybody else as Nazis.
Which country are you in at the moment?Christopher Cantwell, who paid his Charlottesville $25,000 bail with funds donated by supporters on the white supremacist/neo-Nazi crowdfunding web sites Hatreon and GoyFundMe, moved from libertarian anarchist to white-supremacist ideas, to the point that in 2017 he introduced a weekly "What Would Hitler Do?" segment by "Hadding," a frequent caller to the show who also runs a Holocaust-denying site called National-Socialist Worldview."Then there was a "KKK Imperial Wizard", Richard Wilson Preston, who got sentenced to 4 years for shooting at Charlottesville protesters, www.nbc29.com/.../richard-wilson-preston-court-08-21-2018Those are just two of the guys who got convicted, so far.
That's two guys in a country with 325.7 million.
That's two of the alt-right at the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally of, what?, a few thousand.Here's five more from the same event: Heather Hoyer's murderer, James Alex Fields Jr., "had previously espoused neo-Nazi and white supremacist beliefs". Four members of "Rise Above Movement", have been charged with violating the federal rioting statute and conspiring to violate it.But "There are no Nazis or facists", right?
I count 13 people in that picture. Only 1 Nazi and zero KKK.How about the Bernie Sanders guy who shot up the baseball field.en.m.wikipedia.org/.../2017_Congressional_baseball_shootingyvette felarca who got arrested for assault and fired from her job as a kindergarten teacher.How about the milo riot at Berkeley in which antifa, the black block and baam assaulted students including a Syrian on the vmbasis that he looked like a Nazi before moving into downtown Berkley and trashing local buisnesses?How about antifa realising the names and addresses of federal employees?Or how about antifa attacking a 74 year old man's car last week when he became confused and afraid?https://pjmedia.com/trending/__trashed-13/Or how about antifa harrassing a 9/11 victim for wearing an American flag t-sgirt telling her that her husband can rot in hell?How about the Liberal activist assaulted by Antifa members in Portland for carfyi g a us flag?
Assaulting their political opponents, denying their opponents a platform, rioting against free speech, destroying buisnesses, assaulting police, assaulting journalists, threatening politicians and government employees now what organisation does that sound like?
That sounds like an Anti-Fascist organisation.The shooter, was he surrounded by hundreds of people who agreed with him?Who was it shot someone at the UW Milo event? Milo pretended it was someone from the other side, just like you're pretending AntiFa would exist in a vaccuum.You said there were "no Nazis or facists", I gave you examples that prove you wrong.
If the shoe fits...And have you personally interviewed everyone there to see who agrees with who?The Elizabeth Hokoana court case is still going as far as I know but it looks like the Hokoana went to see Milo speak and meet others like themselves when they were attacked by a group of masked antifa members and Elizabeth Hokoana who is licensed to carry a concealed weapon defended herself and her husband but it's in the courts hands.Antifa was doing this shit well before trump even ran for president, groups like the proud boys really only formed after conservatives and republicans were being assaulted at republican and trump events.Actually you gaveno examples of Nazis or facists. Nazis were the national socialist workers party in Germany which hasn't existed since 1945 as for facists they haven't been around since the 70s or 80s and that was in Spain and Italy.
Now we're pretending that the people supporting white supremacy, blaming the Jews for everything and in some cases even flying the flag and calling themselves Nazis... are not Nazis? It's shorthand, deal with it."During the investigation, police uncovered a Facebook conversation Marc Hokoana had with a friend before the event, in which Marc stated, "I can't wait for tomorrow, I'm going to the Milo event and if the snowflakes get out of hand I'm just going to wade through their ranks and start cracking skulls."..."When his friend asked if he was going to carry a gun, Marc said no but added his wife would.""Police also cited snippets of audio captured shortly before the shooting, previously reported by Kelsey Hamlin for Seattle Weekly, in which Marc can be heard telling Elizabeth, "don't shoot anyone" and "they have to start this"."www.seattleweekly.com/.../
Lol just because one guy calls himself a Nazi doesn't make it so.Marc Hokoana didn't shoot anyone and simply stated that if attacked like he was he would defend himself and that his wife would be armed to protect herself which it looks a lot like she needed to, the guy shot didn't want to press charges I assume it's because he tried to attack Elizabeth Hokoana when shot but we will see after it goes to court.Don't shoot anyone is sound advice to his wife and legally speaking your better to let a perpetrator start something first.
You ever listen to antifa talking about the Jews, sure they used to smash up Jewish buisnesses on wallstreet
You really should try reality for a while, it might make a change.1. No True Scotsman fallacy.2. You can assume all you like, but the truth is that the victim wanted a reconciliation process, in the vain hopes that people who went hoping to "have to" shoot someone learn that the protesters are people, too.3. No, go on, lie to me how anti-Semitic Antifa is.
They try to disguise it as criticism of Israel.Those people went to a milo event and were confronted violent masks thugs
That's rubbish, you can hate Israeli policies and still not be anti-Semitic, even by an Israeli minister's definition."Natan Sharansky, former Soviet dissident and Israeli Minister, suggested a three-part test to distinguish legitimate criticism of Israel from anti-Semitic attacks. Sharansky's tests that identify a criticism as anti-Semitic are: Demonization - when Israeli actions are blown so far out of proportion that the account paints Israel as the embodiment of all evil. Double Standards - when Israel is criticized soundly for an action or policy that any other government would be viewed as justified in doing, like protecting its citizens from terrorism. Delegitimization: a denial of Israel's right to exist or the right of the Jewish people to live securely in a homeland."They were met by people shouting at them, and they made them angry by the husband pepper-spraying them, and so the wife shot one. Like I said, they went hoping to "have to" shoot someone.
Yep anti-israeli is just another form of antisemitism, they think Jews are in control of all the money.It's still an on going court case, but it looks like a case of self defence.
No, being anti-the Israeli government's policies is not anti-Semitic, it doesn't match even one of those three criteria.The Hoksanas don't look like they were acting in self defence, at all.From the other opinion, where we've been asked to stop commenting; "6 antifa got stabbed after they stabbed a guy and attacked the rally. " According to the head of the Fa's...From what I can see, Yvette's back at work. www.dailycal.org/.../ And I don't see any reports of her ever being convicted of anything, just told to pay her opponent's legal costs in a civil court.
That story felerica is from Nov 2016. As far as I can see she's likely to be fired when convicted. Seems to be a blackout on the story. But at the end of the day she is on video inciting riots, assaulting a guy and inciting others. I think paying the legal fees is from a frivolous law suit where she got a restraining order against some leader of berkley conservatives, but like she says by any means necessary.The Hoksanas defenitley look like they were just defending themselves from masked assailants first the guy used mace but when the attacker didn't back off the woman shot one of them.
Well that would work if their orders weren't to stand down, wouldn't it?
@ThisAndThat exactly like at the Berkley milo riot.
Gay homophobes? So homophobia is only done by the lgbtq community. Good to know
Depends some gay people Are transphobic otherwise being gay has nothing to do with nasty right wing Christian Americans.
@BesrkirAstrid other than the fact that a lot of them are in the closet about being gay. There’s nothing wrong with being gay tho
So your saying there no problem with being gay yet some people feel the need to hide it? LGBTQ+ isn't the problem never has been bnever Will be.
@BesrkirAstrid true but i just wish they would stop being racist and just be gay together it would be way more hot lmao
They aren't thats just right wing yet agian spreading miss-imfomation and fear morngering.I wish right wing would stop being nasty, sexest, raciest and homophic and wish straights and cis people learn to stop hating everything that isn't them but hey ho i guess that is just some people i guess hatful wast of human life.
@BesrkirAstrid if most homophobes are in the closet surely that means that homophobia is a homosexual problem not a hetrosexual problem?Yes I agree that homosexuals can be transphobic by refusing to date transexuals simply because they were born the opposite gender but then transexuals can be homophobic for demanding homosexuals date a transexual born of the opposite gender. Who has the higher victim status homosexuals or transexuals in this matter?
Homophic belives make sure that gay people stat in the closet for fear of riddelcule Even more so om the US today. There is no trans person i know that is homophic or wants a gay man simply becuase they like men that like woman (trans woman Are real woman) in my life time at the moment trans people Are under scrunty were gay people once were. I'd say that it's more a straight guy problem as they Are the ones that feel the need to be homophic and put someone else down becuase that is what an abusive person does :)
@BesrkirAstrid see your discriminating against trans folks by assuming they can't be homophobic and basically human.Only people with homosexual tendencies are homophobic because they can't accept themselves and can't accept it in others that's why most homophobia comes from homosexuals who are still in the closet.
At least we all agree white nationalists need to stop the ignorance and violence and instead give in to their homosexual desires
You mean the lgbtq community where most homophobia comes from.
Ok im assuming you are either a chatbot or someone who doesn't speak English because nothing you are saying makes any sense. Bye now
Hello most homophobes are homophobic because of their repressed homosexuality therefore even though they are still in the closet they are part of the lgbtq community.
HEllo chat bot why dont you repeat that again. Lmao. Yes, i agree with you that proud boys are a group of gay white men who secretly harbor homoerotic feelings towards one another. Because they are scared to come and and be openly gay with one another they live in repressed fear, which they direct as racism. If they give in and have homosexual relations with one another the world will be a better place
So your saying the proud boys are part of the lgbtq?
@whitepanther88 No am not and that tactic you just tryied to pull is classic behavour off a abusive person er call it transferal, your trying to use a term that discribes a person that hates gays "homophic" and using itnon a memeber of LGBT (in this case that is me) to Try and make others fit a decription of a said hateful person to justicfy such hateful thinking that you have, i can say all day until am Blue in the face that am AS a memeber off LGBT am not homophic how can i be? I live the life and know all too well whiw IT feels but you won't accpcet this do you try (as all right wing abusive people do) transfer all your thoughts and feeling on others so they get hate for your words.
@BesrkirAstrid just look at all the rapes in prision by homophobic prisioners
@whitepanther88 that being Said your trying to strip me of my hunantiy and blaming people like me for being hate ful to our own commutiy in an atemped to discridet us the same way se discreidt those that are homophic. Ine reason why i know your saying is wrong is why would someone like me say homophic slurs to another memeber when they Are also a homosexual or trans? If some was transphobic to me then that is their problem becuase they can't be in the same Room as me simple becuase i own a penis were i have rights to go were i want but they take that away by being transphobic and dead nameing me or by calling me male and using the wrong pronced just to Try and upset me som it not my problem and your the only person that is discrimmating by using nonse and having no logic behind what you are saying form reasons i pointer out.
@BesrkirAstrid people like you are not special and can be mean and hateful to people of your own kind just as any one else can. I sense your a tad bit hetrophobic
@whitepanther maybe i am after all cis right wing men Are all hateful so maybe am not a hetrophob but a right wing cis white manphob see i can make up words too :).
@BesrkirAstrid manphob applies
@whitepanter88 typical form someone like you, picking at my words tiwisting them to fit your agender so very lame.
Police clearly aren't doing their job.
Then what is needed is to improve the work of the police force, not to have some neonazi white supremacist teenager gang roam the streets doing mob law. Luckily we don't live in the movie "A Clockwork Orange".I agree that the training of cops in the US lacks in many respects. But that's something that can be changed.
Local democrat mayors often have the police stand down giving antifa free reign to do what they want.
I suspect you are referring to the incident that happened in New York. Look, I don't agree with what those antifa guys did, throwing a bottle at the other guys. I very strongly believe that violence is against core progressive values. So I don't condone that. But let's also keep it real. These proud boys fucking beat the other two guys half to death. I mean, we don't know what happened to them but the surveillance tape sure looks scary. They might be disabled for the rest of their life for all we know. That's not normal behavior, that's psychotic. If they were mature people, they would have simply walked away, maybe called them some four-letter words. Maybe a bit of pushing around would have also been acceptable, though I personally think that is immature. But what's certainly not normal is for 15 guys to jump on 2 guys, beat them to the ground and keep kicking/beating them while they're already lying on the pavement. That's messed up.
And this is the general problem I see... everyone talks about antifa and how violent they are but no one looks at these right-extremists. Antifa has committed violence but mostly against THINGS (cars, breaking windows etc.). And when they do violence against people, it's something minor like throwing a bottle.The Proud Boys and other white supremacists on the other hand openly embrace physical violence and even murdering people. The leader of the Proud Boys has spoken about how people should be choked and even shot in the head!Most Americans think the extremists on the left commit the bulk of the violence, however, the complete opposite is true. When you look at FBI data from the past 15 years, right-extremists commit about 3 times as many murders as islamist terrorists and about 4-5 times as many as left-extremists.And finally, one more difference is that the Proud Boys also attack innocent bystanders simply for being transgender or something like that.
Terrorising those that terrorise others.
You're a fool.
*Their own brand of terror*Their hands are far from clean
Actually no, the media tried to do a smear campaign against them of course (just like they refused to even report on Antifa attacks for years and even now pretend like they are not a violent terrorist group) but then video evidence showed that antifa has started the fights (just as they have in every single other encounter).
It's just another excuse for the Right to escalate violence. Just like usual.
Antifa is a movement, not an organization. You can no more disband it than you can disband feminism or Christianity.
@taleswapper not disbanded just banned.
Same problem. You can't ban a movement, either.
@taleswapper actually you can, ISIS is banned for instance
ISIS isn't banned, though. Certain behaviors are banned, but not ISIS specifically.
@taleswapper it's a movement
But still not banned.
Law enforcment has refused to step in, in many of these cases. In fact in berkley they stated people where not allowed to carry pepper spray or any kind of defensive weapon so the people didn't then Antifa marched in and attacked people and the cops stood by and did nothing (people video taped it and even asked the cops why they where not trying to stop it and they where told that they would have to ask the people up top).
I hate self appointed cops
And when they don't?
It means there's no legal reason.
Citizens getting the crap kicked out of them by a violent mob is no legal reason?
Cops enough in the US
Obviously not if they are not doing their job.
Do you want a police state?
I want a police force that serves and protects, not one stood down by liberal politicians while innocent people are being assaulted.
Cops at your service, to chase colored people away from you?
Using the term colored isn't PC and borderline racist not to mention many cops are non-white.
Also assuming that non-white are criminals is pretty racist of you.
People like you assume that. I don't.
No you made your racist point pretty clear.
We're you a teenager in the 1980s?https://youtu.be/hd-zNYtB2ls
I we’re not, but many of them were dorks in the 80’s and never got over it.
Anti facist facists.
I also think you're a Russian bot.
His sleep patterns seem to match mine very closely, last posts were 9h and less than 1h ago, and I just got up in Europe. Unless he's on the east coast and gets up at 3 in the morning...
@goaded They have people everywhere.
There was one message 5 hours ago, in the middle of the night.He could just be a right-wing troll, possibly from South Africa or somewhere. He claims to be American, though. Maybe he's just on holiday, checking out all those no-go areas in Europe.
@goaded or I could be Russian bot, Russia is behind everything lol
Are you American? In America?
@goaded I am.
At this point I don't believe a word you say.
Your mom does.
No she doesn't.