Would a good man actually stop being good when it doesn't get him dates?

Now, whenever I hear the question "Where have all the good men gone?" Some men answer it with "they've always been there but they changed to get your attention because you never noticed them. Nice Guys finish last."

Those answers confused me. Maybe this is just my opinion, but I thought what made a good man good is that he was a kind gentleman even if he didn't get wanted or got what he deserved. I thought ACTUAL good men wouldn't prioritize trivial things like sex or dating that highly to the point he'd change his personality for it. isn't that a pick up artist?

IRRELEVANT STUFF:

Now, from my experience, even though I'm only a teenager, I've dated a few nice guys and my mom married one (he's my dad). In fact, I knew a few homely average nice guys that get cute girlfriends.

  • No, he wasn't good to begin with
    85% (17)61% (14)72% (31)Vote
  • Yes, that's how things work
    15% (3)39% (9)28% (12)Vote
And you are? I'm a GirlI'm a Guy

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Most Helpful Guy

  • A good man would be good for the sake of being good. It takes a lot of strength to do so though. We live in a world that rewards bad people, many people get away with cheating, and bad guys generally do get the girl before anyone else does.

    While it's tough to keep doing the right thing at the cost of your own romantic happiness, if you're a good, strong man, your morality will always be your highest priority.

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What Guys Said 18

  • There's a misconception here. Many people think there are only 2 types of guys: Good Guys and Bad Guys, but really, there are three types, with the third type being the Nice Guy.

    Girls are attracted to both Bad Guys and Good Guys, but NOT to Nice Guys, and the problem is that a ton of Nice Guys THINK they are Good Guys, and can't figure out why they always lose with women. They get hurt, angry, and frustrated, and some DO become Bad Guys as a result. Others are just resentful and angry.

    So, what's the difference between a Good Guy and a Nice Guy? Mostly, it's confidence.

    A Nice Guy will lack confidence, especially with women, and so he'll try to make up for that by being "extra nice". Girls tell him that they like guys who are nice to them, so he figures he'll be SUPER nice, and she can't help but like that, right? So he'll treat her like a princess even before they've really talked, and if he gets a date, he'll go way over the top, often trying to impress her with fancy dates or romantic gestures (flowers, poems, jewelry). He'll want her to be happy, so he lets her make all the decisions, not realizing that SHE DOESN'T WANT TO, and that all of his niceness is just putting her on a pedestal and moving way too fast and making her uncomfortable. She wants to be treated like a PERSON, not like a porcelain doll or a demigod, and she wants her man to be a MAN, and take the lead, make the decisions, and be her equal (and, occasionally, in some areas, her superior).

    A Good Guy will be confident and ambitious, and he'll KNOW he has value, so he isn't going to bend over backwards and be a doormat, or always be overcompensating for his insecurity by being "overly nice". He'll be able to be direct, but in a respectful way. He'll lead and take charge, but he'll keep the girl's interests in mind.

    Nice Guys *DO* finish last, but people need to learn the difference between being a Good Guy and a Nice Guy. So many guys are completely in denial about which they are, and so they don't know how to change in a positive way, and girls are often not very helpful when they don't understand the difference either. A Nice Guy will often ask a girl "don't you want a guy who treats you nice, who does things for you, etc.?" and of course the girl says "yes, I'd love that!" What she DOESN'T tell him is that she ALSO needs her guy to be a confident leader and NOT a doormat, and explain the difference. Too often, she only reinforces his incorrect ideas and behavior, leading him to even more frustration.

    Nice Guys need to learn how to become Good Guys, but first they have to learn that the two are very different, despite sharing some common elements, and admit that they are actually Nice Guys, and not the Good Guys they think they are.

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    • Hit the nail on the head.

    • To add: Nice guys do nice things for girls for them. For example a "Nice Guy' will give a girl flowers because he thinks (believes) he will get something in return for it. Whereas a "Good Guy' will give a girl flowers simply because he believes it's something she would like. A major difference between the two is that "Nice Guys" believe they are entitled to more than gratitude for good deeds.

    • Yes, but also, Good Guys don't do nice things for the girl out of desperation like Nice Guys do, so Good Guys don't over-do it, making them seem much more genuine. The Nice Guy overdoes it, and comes across as clingy, needy, creepy, and desperate. That will push a girl away quickly.

  • If they get hurt enough it can turn them into a nasty person. Picture trying over and over again to get a good guy only to find out that you keep bumping into jerks. You then call your friend and she tells you about another girl who keeps going for a jerk that treats her like trash but she loves him so very much. When a guy wants something, he typically uses what works to go for it. So he sees how a lot of girls are hung up on jerks and decides to be a jerk thinking it's going to get him a girl.

    Plus a lot of guys just turn into jerks because of how nasty some girls treat them in general. The sad part is the more of a jerk they become, the more effort they were probably putting into the girls they wanted and the more hurt they were when things didn't work out. It wouldn't necessarily be one girl that caused them to become a jerk(although possible) but a combination of efforts overtime that caused them not to have enough which really sucks when a good girl does come along and is stuck dealing with a jerk.

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    • "Picture trying over and over again to get a good guy only to find out that you keep bumping into jerks."

      I can't because:

      1. I find dating to be trivial and not a necessity.

      2. The guys that ask me out are always nice

      "You then call your friend and she tells you about another girl who keeps going for a jerk that treats her like trash but she loves him so very much. "

      Ever thought that girl was stupid or has self-esteem issues? Or that guy has more of what she wants in a guy?

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    • Ironically a lot of girls do think that about guys. I see it all the time in girls' dating profiles.

    • That's not ironic! That's sexism.

  • I understand what you're saying but I think you're muddying the issue a bit. Everyone wants to be wanted and loved. To many, those are not trivial things. When bad things happen to good people they get frustrated. If you do the same thing over and over and get the same crummy results, something needs to be changed. Unfortunately, many guys choose to change the wrong thing because they don't know any better. They cast off their nice persona in favour of something more selfish and egotistical. Partly because they hear it works and partly out of frustration and it's a way of venting. Now, does this mean they were only being nice to get into the girls' pants? Maybe, maybe not. We mustn't generalize since people are far more complex than that. It's most likely that these guys want to be nice and want girlfriends/sex/dates/etc. Often these guys are just too nice though. As in they offer the girls too much attention, wait on them hand-and-foot, and are afraid to make them mad. Essentially they're walking doormats. These guys just need to scale their attention/niceness back a bit instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They also need tougher personalities while still retaining their overall nice nature. Unfortunately, no one tells these guys this.

    Good people make mistakes and do stupid things from time-to-time. It doesn't mean that they're no longer good people. Just frustrated and confused people. To expect a young adult to be so resolute that he cast away what's arguably the very essence of being human, just so he can remain in line with someone's arbitrary definition of what 'good' means might be asking too much of 90% of the male population.

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    • "just so he can remain in line with someone's arbitrary definition of what 'good' means might be asking too much of 90% of the male population."

      WHAT?! If the guy isn't a good man and can't be, WHY would he pretend to be one?! Trust me, women like a man who's honest with himself than one who lies to himself (which comes off as arrogance).

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    • I re-read your answer twice. I admire the complexity and depth you placed into your answer.

    • No "Good Man" has ever been a walking doormat. Maybe pathetic men who tried to use kindness as a means have. The difference lies in the fact that a "Good Man" takes care of himself and the whelp is by definition neglecting himself. There is no good to come from that behavior.

      It is true that the young get frustrated when their techniques do not work but as usual the young fail to understand why and what constitutes what is and is not. Being a "Good Man" is not about behavior. Never was.

  • A good man would not give up being good when it doesn't benefit him. A selfish, deceptive or self-deceived man will stop acting good (not the same as being good!) when the actions no longer benefit him.

    As you point out, those who claim that they were once good and then changed because no one dates them (note they blame girls for their own lack goodness!) are indeed selfish. It means they were only acting that way for the benefit it brought.

    This is part of a broader philosophical issue regarding what it means to be good. In a truly just world, people would benefit from their goodness. Honest, caring, ugly guys would attract the interest of good women. Overweight, unpopular girls with loving hearts would attract the interest of good men. The good would prosper and the dishonest would not. We know that this isn't the way of the world. If we are to be truly good, we must do so even if it makes are life harder rather than easier.

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  • That's how things work.

    Sexual desire is only about as trivial as hunger - it is the people who fail to recognize this fact that is broken, not the other way around.

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    • That defeats the purpose of p*rn. I thought p*rn was invented because you couldn't get the real thing. I'm not "broken", I've been a lot happier than these Nice Guys down on their luck.

    • I wouldn't say you're broken either. You're way too young to fully understand your own sexuality, let alone the human sexuality in general. I'm just trying to warn you against the bullsh*t that's out there.

      Unfortunately, it looks as though you've already been sold on it.

    • BTW... I've answered this question in a LOT more detail here: link

  • id never change my attitude to get dates. Good guys should never go bad.

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  • Your question is a complex one because a good man can act bad in order to get the dates and then let his good nature show or never be good in the first place and revert to his bad nature.

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    • I hate how women who got hurt in the past blow the guy off the first second they look at him and say he's fake.. I'm sorry I've always been good to change would feel very awkward and I could not do that.

  • A good man will stop acting good if he gets his heart broken enough times over it. I don't think the amount of dates he gets relate.

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  • IF he was truly good he'd stay good no matter what.

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  • A good man would not give up being good when it doesn't benefit him

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  • Nice guys don't finish last. The dating dichotomy isn't between nice guys and jerks, its between good looking guys and ugly guys. If Brad Pitt walked around being really nice to everyone do you really think he would get rejected by most women?

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  • QA - I don't think you realize the vast depth of the question you are asking! You are really to young to even begin to be able to discuss a thing like this intelligently! You have no frame of reference to have any understanding at all of what it is for a man to see his own goodness and caring repeatedly renders him unwanted by the opposite sex! You cannot fathom the horror of seeing your life ruined because women almost always take a man's kindness for unattractive weakness!

    Don't fool yourself! History is filled with good men who changed and became evil! Women are constantly rewarding men who are "bad" or even outright EVIL! Why do you think there are so many men opting to become some kind of bad boy, jerk, asshole or douche bag character? Please get it through your head! If a man's genuine goodness is repeatedly punished and NEVER rewarded, that goodness can most certainly disappear!

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  • Companionship isn't a desire, it is a need. There are lots of good people that do bad things to get what they need. If you are a good person, it doesn't mean you wouldn't steal food in order to keep from dying. If a guy is really lonely he will start to change how he treats women to get the companionship that he needs.

    Men get a lot of really bad advice about how to treat girls. Much of this advice turns women off, as it is commonly mistaken for weakness or desperation when used in the real world. Because the man starts to do so bad with women the guy actually does end up desperate because of all the bad advice. Being a jerk is often mistaken as confidence by women. Men notice that women go after those jerks so guys modify their approach.

    For years I was afraid that it was impossible to be a good guy and get a girl. There were times that I actually cried because I didn't want to have to mistreat the girl I liked in order to get her to like me back, but felt there was no other way. Eventually I decided I couldn't handle the pain of being alone anymore and decided to become one of those jerks. Luckily while researching how to manipulate and control women I accidentally came across some good advice that has allowed me to remain a good man and still get a girl.

    Don't underestimate the pain of loneliness. It can make people do things they never wanted to do.

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    • Wait... I thought that was the reason people have friends and family, to combat loneliness and have companionship.

    • There are different kinds of companionship that people need in order to combat loneliness. Besides lot of people can't rely on their families to combat loneliness, as they have horrible families. Sometimes families can get in the way of having friends uprooting the child and moving forcing the kid to start all over at a new school, or by being so controlling that they never have time to make friends and never develop the skills needed to make friends.

  • Yes.

    That's simply how it is. You go out there, be a respectful and caring guy who consciously doesn't want to "objectify" or "just use a girl for sex" and once you find out that girls are far more taken by guys they explicitly describe as a**holes, you learn very quickly that try to be good to girls gets you nowhere.

    Most guys learn quickly, and we're logical. You get your heart broken with the lesson, "She'd rather pine for her ex who plainly just used her for sex rather than be with you" and you adapt quickly.

    When it comes to dating, "Why has the way of the wicked prospered? Why are all those who deal in treachery at ease?"

    They get no good reply other than, "well, wait until girls turn 27 or so, then they'll want to date you" and that's not a real reply. No guy who has any sense of self-esteem is going to take being told, "Girls want to have fun while they're in their hot primes, once they are older and are doing hooking up with guys, they'll stop friendzoning you."

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    • If you don't believe me--here. link Among adults ages 30-50, why do over three times as many men as women say they don't want to marry? They learn about women, and they get burned out. The truth is ugly. Women will say they want a sweet boyfriend, but the reality is they're more charmed by the guys who no-show them on dates, who neg them, etc.

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    • Probably the men who found "The One".

    • If most men are going to prove sexist women right, so be it. I know there still good men who above that BS.

  • A classic example of holding men to a higher standard than women. You say that if a man is actually a good man he will always be a gentleman (which of course means treating a woman like she's a goddess) and if he ever stops, even if he believes that the way he acts is detrimental to his happiness, he isn't a good man. You expect him to sacrifice his lifelong happiness just to meet your standards. Meanwhile women are brought up to do whatever they feel is necessary to achieve their own happiness. Society does not burden them with concepts of duty, or obligation, and the decisions they make and the way they act is entirely selfish in nature. Not because women are inherently bad people, but because that is how our culture teaches them to behave.

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    • "(which of course means treating a woman like she's a goddess)"

      WTF?! No, why do gentlemen JUST have to treat women with respect (not like a goddess, where the F did you get that from?!)?! Why can't they treat men with respect too?

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    • never really existed? I'm certain that if you were asked this question out of the context of this disagreement you would see that idea for what it really is. Nonsense. Thus, I stand by my statement that you apply different standards to men then to women. You don't believe in equal standards, which means you don't believe in equality, which means you are bigot. And that's really all there is to say about this entire one-sided debate. Your bigotry causes you to hold men to absurd standards.

    • "You continue to feel that you have some sort of authority over how men should act,"

      Did you not know when I put in boyfriend/girlfriend, I was talking hetrosexual nice guys/girls (tm) or do you not know how to read? Something tells me it's the latter.

  • By definition, a good man is a good man. If he stops behaving well when it doesn't benefit him then he is, by definition, NOT a good man.

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  • Eventually. If a guy keeps getting passed over for other types of guys, he's going to get ornery about it. Who can blame them? I certainly am not going to put him down like girls do, because they have good reason to be upset about it.

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  • I disagree with the prevalent morality of our culture. I don't think that someone who sacrifices his or her own interests for other people is a good person, whether he or she's doing it sincerely or insincerely.

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What Girls Said 3

  • Actual good guys stay good to a girl no matter whether or not she wants to go out with him. It's expected that a guy might tone it down on the compliments and attention after a girl says no, but if he starts being rude to her after rejecting her, then he was never a good guy.

    Self-described "nice guys" are the worst. If a guy thinks he's entitled to a girl's romantic or sexual affection because he was nice to her, he should probably just crawl into a hole and die. And bury himself so nobody has to bother with it. You should be nice to people because they are people and it's common courtesy, not because you want to bone them.

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    • LMFAO! Omg, I was reading that in a Minnie Mouse voice the entire time. Omg, I love your picture and your username. They compliment each other.

    • Thanks! If people are going to read my posts in Minnie's voice, I should probably cut down on the swearing.

  • Eh, I guess. But it's usually pretend nice guys that show their true colors later so I went with A

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  • EXACTLY. you have more insight on this than many grown men have.

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