Been down voted by an Incel I'm guessing 😆
I think that guy was sick and your guy was a jerk. But please don't assume all incels are male. Afterall, the first incel was a woman, who coined the term!
I think most incels are damaged people. The kid who got made fun of the most at your school is most likely to be an incel. Being rejected by your peers does serious damage to you and makes finding love almost impossible.I know because I lived that life. Lucky for me, I’m really attractive and girls literally pursued me for sex despite my awful Social skills and absurdly bad social anxiety. But I feel your average incels pain.Does this change how you feel about it at all? Incels do become angry, but can’t you understand why?
I know NONE of you would believe that I was one,(WHAT? SAY IT AIN'T SO!!!)but I think I was one. We just didn't have back then the fancy-shmancy name of incel.
@Kaazsz I was bullied really bad at school because I liked to play soccer. The guys in my soccer class used to do all kinds of mean shit to me whenever the teachers back was turned. They would do their best to cause me physical harm, they even accused me of being a lesbian. I was the girl that no guy wanted, the ugly one with big glasses, frizzy hair, freckles, zits and braces. I left school and turned my life around and 20 years later I went to the highschool reunion just to show them that they did not defeat me. People should stop feeling sorry for themselves and find a way to improve their own attitudes towards life and stop blaming people who have had nothing to do with their past.
@Guardian45, did you make not getting laid some kind of stupid badge of honor? Do you create an identity over not getting laid? THAT is an incel.
I agree. Many of them are for sure!
I second this!
Dude, with that attitude, you are going to be fine. Just keep finding ways to be around positive influences. Never cut yourself off from the people who care about you. And always strive to put more folks into your tribe.
Been where you are with the same attitude. I am not there anymore. Keep it up you are on the right track.
You're right. You only have one round trip in this world. Self awareness is key and you have it. You sound very common sense oriented! One day you will succeed because I did and If I can do it.. . shit.. anybody can! Thanks for the comment!
Back in the day I would have to use an encyclopedia at the library to find something new to learn about something. Today we have google. Anybody can find the information they need if they are really looking to change their situation. So yeah you are correct sir.
Yes, but it's not the same as having someone you respect explain things to you, and it's certainly not the same as actually observing that kind of confidence from men (especially a father figure) growing up.And some people just have trouble learning things from YouTube and Wikipedia. That might be strange to you and me (I learn things from online sources everyday), but some people need human interaction and arguments to learn.Still, at the end of the day, most incels have their own behavior and attitude to blame for their situation. And they COULD change their situation, by changing their behavior and attitude, but most aren't interested in even trying.
True. There will always be one offs where people can't learn via internet, etc etc but for the majority is what I am focused on.
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Oh I already know that I will be down voted because I speak logic and truth that they don't agree with.Not my problem.
SCREW YOU! I'm UPvoting you! HA!
Good comment! There are many things that make you difficult to date. I am 5'6 ... that makes it difficult because women like taller men. But like you... I developed my other skills so that wouldn't even come into play. So you are right... we all have to work with the hand we have been dealt. Problem is.. taking action and making change is hard but giving up is a much easier pill to swallow.
So why are you an Incel? Is there any hope? If there was a program out there that would help would you take it?
Did you even bother putting some effort on reading?
I read it all.
I think it was a interesting point made that we all take personal responsibility for the things we can when it comes to improving one's self; it's nothing special for us to pat ourselves on the back for. It's like a child eating and growing.
@coachTanthony what about understanding the notion of focusing systemic or collective problems on individuals?
I am more than happy to have a conversation but I asked you two questions. Answering questions with a question isn't polite!
The point of the question is that yours make no sense or might be disnonestly pretending to ignore what I said in my paragraph. It's not polite either to ignore what other people say and ask them redundant questions.
Ok thanks for the comments!
There are something that you can't control. I agree. Also even if you improve the ones that you can there is no garantee that you will get lucky. So that is a reason to not try? You look ate the finish line and since it's too far away you don't even run?I have been there you know? I know what it is like and I know how much it hurts. But I tried to change with everything that I had. Because I wanted what I didn't have. I believe that if you improve on the things you can control then YES you will get what you want. It's not win anobel prize it's just finding a girl. It's in the range of what it's possible to get with some will power!
@ThisIsMyOpinion You can try flying all you want while ignoring the consequences of falling down, same way you can trip over a rock over and over while deluding yourself that you're entitled for the rock to change places so you won't trip the next time.
No but you can move the rock away from your path to make sure you won't fall.
@ThisIsMyOpinion You can't as an individual, genius, that's the point. Educate yourself to understand whyhttps://justpaste.it/2msmg
Yes you can! I did! So anyone can
@ThisIsMyOpinion You don't even understand that others aren't a copy of yours, all the less you'll get the point of the conditions that influence your life. Anecdotal evidence won't make up for a reality that affects plenty of people as a group.
No they are not. But you really think that most of them even tried to change their situation? Like actually tried or just accepted it? The second option it's so much easier.
@ThisIsMyOpinion Are you really that clueless, insulting and condescending to believe they didn't actually try? Now that's your own fault, just like the rich telling the poor they're poor because they're lazy and they want it, only to justify themselves not paying more taxes or helping their situation.
That is what I believe in yes.
@ThisIsMyOpinion It's not others people's fault you're this irresponsible and deluded, then
I find it interesting that the only ones thus far to thumb me down are men and didn’t bother saying anything against my statement. I think I struck a cord with some incels.
Although I agree with your general point, that people should act instead of whining, I can also see why guys disliked your comment.First of all, incels don't hate women. They're "involuntary" as the name says. In other words, people in a situation that makes them unattractive, that they have no control over. You're mixing them up with MGTOWs.Saying that it's an incels own fault, is like telling an ugly girl that her looks are her fault, or telling someone with asthma that it's his own fault that he has trouble breathing.
Incels are people who believe they are undatable, not women haters
@Andrew0478. What are "MGTOWs"? Your A makes more sense to me.
Well said 👌Self-improvement is a trait that many people lack, sadlu
@Guardian45, "MGTOW" are "men going their own way". Losers who have decided to build their identities around how much they hate women.
and i honestly think it's really shitty of those who have voted yes especially women. Incels are not those asshole guys that you're imagining, whom you end up in bed with. incels are actually nice people who just don't seem cool to you. and if some dumb chick is going to reply that i'm an incel myself and have been turned down by girls and blah blah and that's why i'm writing this then keep your opinion to yourself
I am not trying to be an asshole here or go against you. But I voted yes.When I was like 16 I saw everyone around me getting girls, but not me. I was a practical person so what is the logical conclusion? Is the entire world wrong? Or just me? Everyone else has it so if I don't I am the problem. So I just said to myself "Ok I suck! Now what can I do to change that?". It takes a lot of strength to accept that you are just inept. And even moe to try to change it. But after I changed my wardrobe, started to workout and read a lot more and well here I am a solid 8/10 about to get married.I know how much it hurts. No one needs to tell me I know! I felt it! Feeling bad and hating yourself it hurts. I am not advocating that all incels are this or that. If I could I would give my hand to all of them and say "I did it and you can too!". So yes I think they are to blame, for not trying to improve themselves.
@ThisIsMyOpinion dude! human beings are complicated creatures and you don't need to tell me this. i can get girls. i'm just saying we shouldn't judge those that we don't understand. i didn't blame women for not sleeping with incels i just said it's wrong to say it's their fault. as you can see i didn't give any reasons for the problems that these people have mainly because i, myself don't understand them. seeing that so many people easily judge a group of people who haven't harmed anyone gets me mad.
@ThisIsMyOpinion what you did worked for you and i'm happy it did. but how can we give all those people the same advice. surely people are different and have different problems. but again i see those people everyday who are mistreated by others and ostracized. it's a little ignorant to blame them for not being all cool, confident and sociable
Different problems different solutions. But there are always solutions. The problem that incels have is getting girls right? That is what defines them. So it't not something transcendant. It can be done if the things that need to change are adressed. I think the vast majority of incels doesn't even try.I have felt what they do in my skin so I can talk about this. Of course there is going to be that one person that because of many factors really doesn't have much hope. But those are a minority compared to the ones that just don't try.
Found the incel
Wrong, totally wrong, brimming over with wrongitudinal wrongness!I know you're wrong because I have had plenty of self-despair and totally screwed social development. Never been without romantic and sexual partnership for more than a couple months, If I'm bothering to look. It's really not all that hard. You can be awkward as fuck and miserable as Eeyore, and there are women who think it's sweet and adorable--if you aren't an asshole about being awkward and miserable.
I’ve read the same thing.
Same here. I know it's anecdotal, but I've also noticed that myself with a lot of folks in my generation. I don't know.
Romantic Sexual... whatever! I am not going to debate single words. I think everyone gets the gist of the question.
So you think the two terms are interchangeable? For me it does depend which one you mean. It is their fault for lack of sexIt is a much different thing to say it's their fault for lack of romance.
Okay dude.. no worries! Thanks for the comment!
The way incels react to their problems**
But past those extremes, I think most are cases of self-defeat. They either don't put in the effort to be all that they can be, have standards that are too high, or let bitterness get the best of them.
Using your logic, everything is a product of society. Feminazis, the KKK, "Black" Israelites, serial killers, etc.The point is that they are the only ones who have the power to change their story. No matter how they were raised or socialized. No one possesses a time machine and can go back and change their origins. We can only work with what we have in the "now".And it seems that telling an incel, he has the power to change his life, is the worst news they could ever receive. I don't get it.
@RolandCuthbert Those things you listed do have society as a contributing factor so...I don't think they are the only one who can change their story. But isn't that just the most convient line for people who just don't care?They have a responsibility to want to change themselves and be responsible in that way. We all have that responsiblity and that's what I said. But that doesn't mean we exist independant of the world and our environment. What we have in the "now" is also young men and boys who could go down this road if we just don't give a fuck about them. I don't consider a 5yo boy to be responsible for himself but at his life experience could lead him to being an incel. People around him can foster behaviour in men, women and children ssuch that moving forward we can influence society in ways we see as postive. That goes for all things not just preventing people from being sexless and unhappy. So yes, socialization matters. For the ones in the situation at present, yes they have a responsibility to want take control of their life, but it's bullshit to just say society has no contribution as I've explained.It's good to encourage them, but that's not what people do, is it? It's "encouragement" in the form of abuse at best. It's not "hey, here's some advice and I'll help you," it's "you're just angry, bitter, pathetic." It's "Fuck you loser, you're on your own." People tend not to treat other people suffering with different problems in the same way. Them having a responsibility to themselves doesn't mean we shouldn't help, esspecially when other people can be excused from responsibility from their shortcomings and recieve more help. Imagine telling women or black people to fend for themselves with a problem they face. People flip their shit -- and if it was women you talked about what might they call you once that shit has flipped? Incel, perhaps? Now isn't that interesting.
"I don't think they are the only one who can change their story. But isn't that just the most convient line for people who just don't care?"Right so tell me who can change their story? Can I? President Trump? Nelson Mandela? Who can come into an incel's life and change their story?" I don't consider a 5yo boy to be responsible for himself but at his life experience could lead him to being an incel."It is like talking to a brick wall. No one should be mistreating a five year old boy. But a 25 year -old man has to accept he is the only one who can take these steps to change his life. "Imagine telling women or black people to fend for themselves with a problem they face. "And in this forum, that happens every single day, multiple times a day and I wholeheartedly agree with it. I am not a feminist. I believe that women have to figure out how to organize and advocate for their own issues. I am a "Black" man, and I believe that "Black" people have to figure out how to organize and advocate for their issues.And on and on. . . . defined groups have to figure out their own issues. And I don't see how this should be any different for an incel. Ban together with other incels, figure out how to give each other confidence, self-esteem, acceptance, and find happiness.I don't get it.You don't seem like the type that gives sympathy to anyone else. Why on earth should someone give you something you are incapable of giving?
@RolandCuthbert "Right so tell me who can change their story? Can I? President Trump? Nelson Mandela? Who can come into an incel's life and change their story?"Individuals or society in general. Literally just think of something you think they should change and then help them to make that change. Believing that there's no possible way to help them is obviously going to make it hard to find ways to help them. It should be obvious that it's not the right attitude to take. You could also not get on the lets-shit-on-incels bandwagon and encourage others to do the same, is *that* beyond possibility? Not at all. I think it's there's plenty of things that could be done, but we're so determined to disregard them that we reject any possibility of anyone helping them but themselves."No one should be mistreating a five year old boy."And yet people who were once 5yo boys became incels. Something happened, saying it's just up to them to fix themselves and them ignoring the issue doesn't help identify the details of the problem or potential solutions."But a 25 year -old man has to accept he is the only one who can take these steps to change his life."Not quite. He has to want to change and be willing to move in that direction. But for society to just wash it's hands of him is just laziness at best. He shouldn't be lazy about it, but neither should we. We have all sorts of charities and social programs for people who face all sorts of issues. There's campaigns for changing attitudes about things or to raise awareness about problems and the complexities that go into it. But when it comes to incels, they receive a unique ostracism and disparagement, obviously that's not helpful.
"And in this forum, that happens every single day, multiple times a day and I wholeheartedly agree with it."I share the position, but it's not popular is it?I think we can help men just as we can help women and black people, but they --all of them-- do need the intial williness to adapt to their environment and should have the williness to help those who want things to change and examine the issue sensibly to find a more fundamental solution, not to just fix the people who could just be symptoms of grander underlying problems.Man, I'm really abusing this character limit.
"Ban together with other incels"This is another cop out to my mind. Whenever it's men's issue being talked about I hear that they have to support each other rather than anyone else, why? They're the ones in that problem, that doesn't imply they are qualified to get themselves out of it. Why can't we just help people as necessary? Why is that so crazy? We're all trying to live together we should be using our strengths to account for the weaknesses of others so our society prospers. Part of the weakness of the incels situation is that support from others in the same position isn't very valuable -- and that's generally a thing among men, they support to be more effective from women and less effective from men. It's just addressing the reality of the situation that men need more socialization than women, because men more often find themselves on the fringes in many ways. Women need help in different ways. What I don't get is why groups have to help themselves instead of everyone helping each other as well as themselves. Incels aren't going to find "confidence, self-esteem, acceptance, and find happiness" from other incels, that's part of the problem. What they need is to connect with all the aspects of culture and society that they have gone without -- we literally define them by one of those aspects that they have gone without, that's what marks their difference. If we find a way prevent that difference from occurring then there would be no more incels, that seems like a good thing. The question is how, and not contributing is not helpful. I would demand people have to focus their attention on certain things, they do have their own lives to tend to, but to excuse ourselves with the determination that no help can possibly occur is wrong.
"You don't seem like the type that gives sympathy to anyone else."I'm not sure if the "you" here is figurative or literal so I'm just going to let that slide."Why on earth should someone give you something you are incapable of giving?"I know that might sound profound, but have you actually thought about it?We can imagine that I offer something you are incapable of, you offer something I'm incapable of, we help each other. Was that so crazy?Or what if I just offer something to you because it's good for you? --because I can't afford to? --because I want to help? -- because I want my society to be a good one? I've done a couple years of volunteer work at an animal shelter, did they offer me things in return? I've made regular donations to a charity that helps put kids in struggling families through school, I'm literally giving them what they are incapble of giving me, is that a problem? I would argue that what we actually get back is in 10 years time we have fewer addicts, homeless people, etc along with just more happy, wholesome people -- and that's the world I want to live in.So I don't agree with your last statement and you're going to have a very difficult time convincing me that the principle of charity is bad.
Uhm, I don't even know what to say to this. Help them find/make a change? You don't even want to hear that you are the only one who can make these changes. So how can anyone help? Again, you are the only one who can change the way you dress. You are the only one who can join a meetup group to learn how to socialize better. You are the only one who can reach out and try to make friends with other incels. No one can do this for you. I can only tell you to do it over and over again.This world is cruel. And I don't know why you pretend to be innocent in the cruelty that is out there. "And yet people who were once 5yo boys. . ."Uhm, I am pretty certain that most in society are pretty sure many issues originate from childhood. I am not sure what you are claiming here. Everyone is onboard that children should not be mistreated. But the world does not contort itself simply because you had a rough childhood. Ask anyone."Not quite. He has to want to change and be willing. . ."How is that "not quite"? There is nothing I can do for you or for anyone who is not willing to try. And thing is, I owe you the same thing you owe me. Which is nothing. I am talking to you because I am willing to listen and to try to help.You have get it through your head. No one owes you a thing. Not even this conversation.And when people make an effort to talk to you and try to understand you, it is they who went above and beyond for you. But you still haven't done that for yourself.
"I share the position, but it's not popular is it?I think we can help men just as we can help women and black people, but they --all of them-- do need the intial williness to adapt to their environment and should have the williness to help those who want things to change and examine the issue sensibly to find a more fundamental solution, not to just fix the people who could just be symptoms of grander underlying problems.Man, I'm really abusing this character limit. "I have no idea what you are talking about here. Who has helped me? Did you do something for me?
"This is another cop out to my mind. . ."You are not talking about help. You are talking about co-dependence. And I will not justify your feelings of worthlessness, low self-esteem and low-confidence. You are obviously intelligent. And I will acknowledge that intellect and tell you you can figure this out. I will not sit around patting an incel on the back telling him he is right to feel bad and sorry for himself. That is insane.And this is why defined groups have to speak out for themselves. Womens' suffrage. Did men know that women wanted the right to vote before women voiced that opinion? Of course not. Men can't define what women's issues are or should be. Women have to define that. Only women understand women. Another example; birth control.I thought that women wanted birth control because of sexual freedom and the whole issue of abortion rights. I had no idea that birth control is used for so many other things. This became frighteningly clear to me when my ex almost died because of constant bleeding from an irregular period. She had to take birth control medication to regulate her cycle. It scared me to death.How in the world am I suppoosed to understand issues of birth control.Dude, I don't have a period!Defined groups have their own unique experiences. And if you can't voice your own opinion on your own experience, maybe it isn't all that important to you.
Yeah, this makes no sense in the context of your issue. So are you saying people should give incels money? They should take care of them? Clothe them?What in the world are you talking about?There will always be poor people, homeless people, etc. And there will always be charities dedicated to helping those people. You are not saying anything that shows anyone why incels are supposed to be special. Or any different than anyone else.If you want to setup an incel charity, if that will feed you, then do that. Maybe you can have discussion groups where incels can come and talk about their issues. But I have a strong feeling you don't want that. You want someone else do to that. Someone who is not an incel. . . therefore someone who really can't care about the issue like you.And I am telling you, that isn't even remotely logical.
@RolandCuthbert Wow what I miss! Geeez Louise! That was an interesting conversation.
Yeah, I think we have talked to this guy before.
@RolandCuthbert It's amazing how detailed they are. If they just put that kind of detail in themselves... wow.. watch out.. right?
@RolandCuthbert "You don't even want to hear that you are the only one who can make these changes."I said multiple times people have a responsibility to take care of themseslves, but saying it's *only* on them when it's obviously not is just a cop out."So how can anyone help?"If you can't answer that, then you're not trying. Use your imagination. Social programs, promote changes in cultural attitudes on personal and societal levels (in themselves and others before and after they find themselves in that situation), address the issues that lead to the situation. Not wanting to help is okay, we aren't obliged to help with every single problem in the world, but being adamant that there's no way to help is a good way for help not to happen. It's a touch defeatist."This world is cruel."Yes, that's why I try to do right by others."Everyone is onboard that children should not be mistreated"So then what's the issue with trying to address problems they might be facing?"There is nothing I can do for you or for anyone who is not willing to try."How many times do I need to say that of course people need to try. The same applies to you. You're not offering help, as far as you're concerned they're on their own."I owe you the same thing you owe me."I don't only do things when I feel they are "owed."I owe you nothing, yet I'm not obligated to only give you nothing."I am willing to listen and to try to help."Yet all you seem to say is that it's all on them. There's more to this than just those in this position right now, there's the issues they faced that led them to where they are and the attitudes around them. It's all interconnected."No one owes you a thing."Never said anyone was owed.
"when people make an effort to talk to you and try to understand you, it is they who went above and beyond for you."That's not what people do though is it? That's what I'm suggesting people do. It's what I do for some people I see who are isolated and socially anxious because I've been through that and come out the other side. But when it comes to incels, for the most part people's attitudes are overwhelmingly negative."Who has helped me? Did you do something for me?"Not me directly. Maybe indirectly, maybe not. But what about parents, teachers, role models, friends, postive reinforcement from the culture? You do not exist in a vacuum. But that's not the point, the point is the principle of helping people. You're not obliged to, but it's also still a good thing."co-dependence"Humans are co-dependent animals. There's nothing wrong with cooperation. We shouldn't foster weakness in individuals, but neither should we neglect the social fabric and the ability of a group to be greater than its parts.
"I will not sit around patting an incel on the back telling him he is right to feel bad and sorry for himself."You shouldn't, but let’s be clear, it's entirely understandable that people in shitty frustrating situations feel angry.About a year ago, a girl I had been friends with for a year asked me to be in a relationship with her. We obviously liked each other so naturally I said yes. Shortly after she decides that her parents would disapprove of us, so she breaks it off over text and I never see or hear from her again. Now you could say I bear some responsibility by walking into that by saying yes to her, and I can even accept that modicum of responsibility. But the point is that the situation obviously sucked something fierce and it's entirely understandable that I felt angry and sad -- and anyone trying to help me though that should have been understanding of that reality. Whether an incel is right or not to feel angry is not the question, it's whether they get trapped in it. Yes, people in bad situations of all sorts must try to adapt, but that doesn't mean it's unreasonable to feel shitty in shitty situations. What I'm saying is that it's equally insane to dismiss them because they displayed negative emotions."Women’s suffrage."Most men never had suffrage either and at the time the number of women for it were a minority. There were certainly arguments by women for an against it but ultimately it was attitudes surrounding WWII that made universal suffrage happen. I'd rather not get too deep into that, but basically, I reject your assessment of that.
But as for birth control. Your example shows it happening to someone you cared about, obviously it has some relevance to you. As far as I know I'm not sterile, so I'm capable of being a father. I must live in society with others who want to be parents. So, it's affecting all of us. In a strictly scientific perspective, I can assess what kinds of effects it has on the people taking it, mass drug use obviously needs a bit of examination. There’re some negative effects regarding the pill that seem to have effects on wider society, like how the hormonal changes influence genetic preference. Birth control is not an issue that only women get to have an opinion on."Defined groups have their own unique experiences."The intensity of the experience might be unique, but we are creatures capable of empathy and abstract thought. And then there's context to content with, e. g if people are much more receptive to some groups over others then that effects what problem they can have addressed. People often fall into narratives rather than actually make the effort to understand what's going on with these groups. We should be trying to figure it all out, not just taking their word for it or just dismissing it altogether.
"So are you saying people should give incels money?"No, just handing them cash from strangers probably wouldn't help them which is the case for basically anyone. I'm saying help boys in school, young men in workplaces or tertiary education, have positive role models, don't shit on people who have found themselves in a shitty situation. Maybe if you personally knew one and wanted to help them you could give them money, but I think it would come in the context of something like "hey, I'll pay for your gym membership if you come and work out with me" (because honestly how can you go wrong by getting fit?) I think there's quite a few things people could do if they actually wanted to help and put their mind to it. Probably the least they could do is try to give it a rest with the whole negative attitude toward them."there will always be charities dedicated to helping those people.You are not saying anything that shows anyone why incels are supposed to be special. Or any different than anyone else."They aren't that different, that's my point. Yet people feel comfortable being uniquely disparaging toward them.I also don't agree there will *always* be such people, but even if we accept their will always be such people, we still help them. They are also often symptoms of larger societal issues worth understanding. Like prevalence of homelessness could be a commentary on the failings within social services or how we treat our mentally ill.
"incel charity"I already said I don't think incels all getting together really does anything. I like ways of helping that can be more broad. Like Men's Sheds, these sound like a decent place for men to find support, but even in the Men's Shed's own website they recognise that there's a need for it because it can't be found elsewhere -- and I don't think that's just a given we need to accept -- but it is what it is. It's a place where men can seek guidance and mateship, chat about issues and learn skills from experienced guys. My only issue is that it's very traditional, you're not going to find many guys that identify with the incel in my opinion, but I also don't expect them to be super judgmental either so it's not ideal for the incel, but it could be positive. Basically, we can be more imaginative that "give money to incels.""I think we have talked to this guy before."Oh, we've had words on several occasions. But I've seen recently there are anons posting in a similar format and I've mistaken their posts as my own so hopefully that keeps me from being too recognizable. ;)
This is a textbook illogical statement. Let's say you are right. Somehow, I have some responsibility to you because you are an incel. That it is partly my fault that you are the way you are. What law can force me to act on this responsibility using whatever directives you have set for how the world is supposed to help incels?There is none.That is basic simple fact. You are in a hole. And you keep saying the people around the edges above you have a responsibility to pull you out. Everyone reading this thread, knows there is nothing to compel people to help other than their own willingness to. And if you are going to rely on that, then it is you who have empowered other people to decide if you will live, die, be happy or be a failure. I am sorry. But I would rather control my own destiny. Even if I failed.The rest of this post is actually frightening. You are telling me to use my imagination in helping you. It is me who has to sit at home and figure out how to make your life better. That is actually terrifying."but being adamant that there's no way to help is a good way for help not to happen."I am going to repeat this again. I will capitalize this until you acknowledge it. IF YOU WILL NOT HELP YOURSELF, THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE CAN HELP YOU. And they are not obligated in any way to help you. They will do so because they are good people. And it is terrifying to witness a man, a grown man, who wants the sympathy he cannot extend to others. "So then what's the issue with trying to address problems they might be facing?"People do that every day. They adopt children. They work in child services. They donate and contribute to causes. And some of those people are socially awkward. Some are men who are not good with women. Some are women who have issues attracting men. But they don't at home feeling sorry for themselves or worse, claim that their issues are someone else's responsibility.
"How many times do I need to say that of course people need to try. The same applies to you. You're not offering help, as far as you're concerned they're on their own."And sir, I mean this from the heart. This is not an insult. You need to see counseling. You have an issue with perception. I am helping you now. I have created posts in this forum, talking about how shy guys can do better in the dating. Coach Anthony is here. And he gives free dating advice. And you have ignored it. You can't even figure out the type of help you need. This when no one on this planet owes you a thing. Yet, you are telling me I am refusing to help.Wow!That is beyond entitlement. "Never said anyone was owed."You just spent an entire post telling me how much the world owes incels.
Like I said, something is very wrong here. I have told you several times that INCELS HAVE TO DEFINE THEIR ISSUES AND CREATE SPACES, GROUPS ETC. DEDCIATED TO ADDRESSING THOSE ISSUES. Please acknowledge that.So here you are telling me exactly what I told you. That an incel former or current would be a much better person to set up an organization or group where incels can come talk about their issues, gain confidence, etc. So you talk to other incels and counsel them. Er. . . right. I have told you this. "Not me directly. Maybe indirectly, maybe not. . ."So you have your answer. Everyone who is not an incel is helping you indirectly. If you think you answer is good enough for me, then it has to be good enough for you. Unless you think you or incels are somehow more special than others.That is not cooperation. That is pity. And I would not like to be pitied. I would rather have respect. Co-dependence is a psychological term. "excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction"That is not cooperation. That is a sickness.
You shouldn't, but let’s be clear, it's entirely understandable that people in shitty frustrating situations feel angry."But it is not understandable to claim society has to fix their problems or even has a responsibility to.""About a year ago, a girl I had been friends with for a year asked me to be in a relationship with her."You are not describing incels. You are describing what all of us have gone through. All of us have been let down, some of us cheated on, lied to in relationships. And all of us get depressed or angry.You are saying incels have the right to stay in that place and "society" has to figure out how to get them out of there."Most men never had suffrage either and at the time the number of women"You can reject it but it is true. And it is not even remotely logical to claim otherwise.Who understands issues incels face better than an incel?Again to claim otherwise, is not rational.
You have an issue with perception. You perceive me saying one thing when I am saying something totally different.DO YOU HAVE A MENUSTRAL CYCLE?That is the simple basic point.And you did not read that post. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BIRTH CONTROL. Go back read my post and please respond to my point.As for the second part of your post, you are not being logical. How do I understand incels if incels won't even talk about what their issues are? No one should make the effort to understand you, if you do not possess the courage to talk about what is going on with you. That's why I say it is up to an incel like yourself, to create a space where incels can talk, gain confidence and find a way to a better social life.
I am glad you acknowledged that. As for you say about boys in school, sir, we need positive role models for all boys. But something is definitely off about your perceptions. Life will always be hard. People will always shit on you. People will always treat you shitty. And if you are going to give up on life because of that, just lock yourself in your house and never come out again.As for your post, you just seem to ramble. Paying for a gym membership? What in the world?Again, incels can work out and get in shape. They can go jogging. They can form groups of incels to go jogging with. Its like you want to do everything you can to avoid helping yourself."They aren't that different, that's my point."That is not your point. Your point is that they get special criticism. That people go out of their way. Your point is that they are the most hated creatures on the planet. Your point is that they are treated worse than the Jews in WWII. Their suffering is worse than the American Indian genocide. Their suffering is worse than the Christians in the Roman Empire. They suffer worse than the Japanese in Hiroshima. Your point is that the pain these men suffer is worse than all the sufferings all the other groups in the history of mankind. And that "we" have a responsibility to fix "them".That's your point.Because if they were just like everyone else, you would acknowledge they have to fix their issues like everyone else.
Right, that's your real point. Inels can't fix their own issues. That's always your point. And if you can't define your own issues, figure out what needs to be done to help alleviate these issues, then there isn't one thing anyone can do for you.I think the biggest way to help an incel like you. Is to help other incels who are willing to try. Because maybe the jealousy will spark initiative in you.I know we have had words before. And I find it interesting that you remain anonymous. When you find the courage to come out of that shell, you will see the world is not such a bad place.
@coachTanthony " It's amazing how detailed they are. If they just put that kind of detail in themselves... wow.. watch out.. right? "That's the thing. This one is intelligent. Exceptionally so. But he lives in a delusion.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgnM1KY4y0Y
@RolandCuthbert I get it. Most who don't take action... talk.
@RolandCuthbert “I have some responsibility to you because you are an incel.”I didn’t say you had a responsibility. I just said it was good.“What law can force me to act on this responsibility?”There isn’t one and I never said there needs to be.“you keep saying the people around the edges above you have a responsibility”No, I didn’t. Whatever you’re reading is not what I’m writing.“there is nothing to compel people to help other than their own willingness to”I know. I’m still not saying anything these things you think I am.“It is me who has to sit at home and figure out how to make your life better.”As I’ve said, you’re not obligated to help people. But if you are going to sit their and form an opinion on the world then yes, use the full capability of your faculties please.“IF YOU WILL NOT HELP YOURSELF, THERE IS NO WAY ANYONE CAN HELP YOU”There’s a bit more nuance to it than that, but whatever. It’s *your* position that they won’t help themselves. That is *you* saying that, and you bar yourself from being able to help anyone asking for it.“And they are not obligated in any way to help you. They will do so because they are good people. And it is terrifying to witness a man, a grown man, who wants the sympathy he cannot extend to others.”I’ve already addressed all these points and how none of them are actually reflections of what I am or think.“People do that every day.”They do it on some things every day. The point is that we find new angles to issues which need to be addressed all the time as well and with this particular social issue people do not address it in meaningful ways. It’s dismissed a lack of consideration and an abundance of negativity.“counselling”Advice often found in counseling or even from the Coach here is often unhelpful or even detrimental. There’s little consideration for deeper, more fundamental sources that influence the issue. We treat the symptom and ignore cause.
“you are telling me I am refusing to help.”I’m not demanding that you help anyone. But what bothers me is the pretense of being helpful without actually doing so. Most people give incels downright disparagement and abuse, in lieu of that, some people such as yourself do offer what is to them sincere advice – and I do believe it is sincere – but what it amounts to is essentially the equivalent of a Christian saying “you need Jesus.”“You just spent an entire post telling me how much the world owes incels.”Reading things I didn’t write again.“Please acknowledge that.”Can you acknowledge that the nature of the group changes how that is received? There is a context to this stuff. If they define their issues and everyone just shits on them without hearing them out, then it’s not the same process for every group. People were well aware of the concerns of slaves but for the longest time didn’t care. There’s been a rise in suicide for a while now, if suicidal people all killed themselves instead of voicing their concerns, I can still recognise that there’s something going on. As I said incel do have a responsibility to focus on themselves, but that doesn’t mean I’m not going to try to understand the issue in full to figure out what is happening.“Everyone who is not an incel is helping you indirectly.”Just because they exist doesn’t mean they help, even indirectly. They do have influence. They *could* help indirectly and my point is that many people don’t have good attitudes and that can spill onto other people; in the same way they could be helpful they can also be destructive. Before, I said that positive role models and cultural attitudes are good. It should follow that bad cultural attitudes and bad or non-existent role models are bad.
“Co-dependence”Well if you’re using it in the psychological context then I think you’re just mischaracterizing this. It’s not what I’m talking about, so calm your farm. I’m suggesting *people who want to help* should be *cooperative*, so you can drop the whole pity thing as well."But it is not understandable to claim society has to fix their problems or even has a responsibility to."But it does have a role in addressing *societal* issues on a *societal* level.And the point was that getting mad over them being mad is silly.“You are not describing incels. You are describing what all of us have gone through.”Yes. That’s because I wasn’t talking about incels, I was talking about what *all of us* have gone through. The point being to make it relatable to everyone; we all go through shit that makes us upset. I was pointing out how many people feel comfortable using the incels anger and sadness to justify disparagement.“You are saying incels have the right to stay in that place”I said it’s not about a “right” to stay in that place. What I was saying was that people should be empathetic. *People who want to help* should be understanding because they’ve probably been through some bad stuff themselves at some point in their life and accept that there’s going to be some resistance in their endeavour – and at the same, that *people who do not want to help* should still be understanding enough to give it a rest with the abuse and just not wade into the conversation at all.“it is not even remotely logical to claim otherwise.”Other than historical facts, e. g feudalistic societies and monarchies generally didn’t offer suffrage to the people at large. Although I think I said WWII instead of WWI, so I make that correction.
“Who understands issues incels face better than an incel?”Who understands comas better than the comatose?In the experiential sense, yes, they understand the experience, as I said. But perhaps doctors also have a valuable opinion on the matter?You can have an opinion a matter without experiencing it directly.“IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BIRTH CONTROL”If I recall, it wasn’t specifically about birth control; I took it as a point about what I am able to intuitively understand. It’s true that I don’t understand it on an intuitive level, but I defer to women on the experience of it and I defer to chemists for the mechanics and to sociologists for the behavioural outcomes. The affected do not have an innate claim to *absolute* knowledge of what is affecting to them.“How do I understand incels if incels won't even talk about what their issues are?”Does everyone necessarily understand all the details about why they are the way they are? I doubt anyone is capable of that level of introspection. I forgive the afflicted layperson for not understanding the complexities of everything that has had influence on them. But in the case of incels you can listen to them on YouTube, or on whatever forum or board it is they post on or maybe approach a friend in the real world to hear what ails them. You can expect it to be laden in anger or lament, it may be inarticulate or bent by their emotions, but you can still gather details from that. You can ask them how they grew up and where they came from, these are all pieces of the puzzle. Some people have done research into this issue, but the negative attention the issue gets far outweighs the concern and study.
“No one should make the effort to understand you, if you do not possess the courage to talk about what is going on with you.”I disagree. What about people whose problem is that they literally don’t have the courage to speak, like people with social anxiety disorders? What about the mentally challenged who might not understand things that are happening to them? What about people who feel they would be fiercely shamed and condemned for expressing their vulnerabilities? If such people could talk about what is going on with them then they wouldn’t have the problem in the first place. It’s fantastic if some of these people can speak out, but to take the position that they get nothing unless they can manifest behaviour alien to them before you’ll even begin to hear them out is just being a dick.“create a space where incels can talk, gain confidence and find a way to a better social life.”I know it sounds nice, but this copy and paste rhetoric doesn’t just automatically work. As I understand it, there are places online where they talk, and it doesn’t seem beneficial. I think they have more success when they turn to the PUAs or MGTOW for a strategy to move forward and I think they would do even better if the mainstream could route out why all these kinds of things have become a thing in the first place. But for most people, they just look at these things and throw out something like misogyny or patriarchy or whatever else and leave it at that.
“People will always shit on you.”Yes, but it’s not a constant amount of shitting on people all throughout time, with different periods, different topics, different people, the amount of shitting on people will vary. We know good can come from an active effort toward doing good. I know I’ve been a dick at times in the past, but these days I see great value in being good to people and *initiating* good will. I’ve become better, I’m suggesting to others that they can stand to be less of a dick too. If I’m asking for anything, it’s that all the people we see being abusive to incels (and to anyone else for that matter) to consider chilling out if they have any decency in them. Yes, there will always be those eager to metaphorically defecate, but we don’t all have to be that person.“Paying for a gym membership?”I was using my imagination. It was just an idea; a kindness you could afford to another that could help them. Many incels could stand to hit the gym and by offering to support them in efforts toward getting fit I think they might be receptive. Why is that crazy? I’ve invited socially anxious people to come out to do activities with me and meet people. Its not their inclination to jump into social situations but by bringing them to where they need to be and supporting them, they still end up having a great time and their issues become that little bit easier to deal with in the future.“incels can work out and get in shape”Yes, but I wasn’t talking about what they can do, I was talking about what *people who wanted to help could do* with an off the opt of my head idea: Invite an incel friend to work out. *Gasp* How awful. Such ‘pity,’ such ‘co-dependence’…Again, yes, they could stand to work out and they have a responsibility to themselves to improve their situation as everyone does. My point was about what genuinely concerned parties could do to facilitate the positive behaviours we want to see in them.
“Your point is that they get special criticism.”They do. I meant they aren’t the different fundamentally, but *despite that* they get treated very differently. I didn’t say they get treated worse than jew in WWII or any of that mess. But they are treated badly, no? Am I dreaming when I read comments of people talking about how awful and pathetic incels are? Are they not placed under the banner of men branded misogynistic whose experiences we can disregard? They’re not the only subset of people who get an excess amount of shade thrown their way, but they are one of those groups that gets dismissed in mainstream media narratives.If people aren’t being awful to incels then okay, good, they should have no trouble continuing to not do it and we shouldn’t see many negative attitudes toward them floating around. But if we see comments about how they are angry, sad, jerks, losers, etc, then I’m not buying it. You can see it often in questions regarding men’s rights and/or feminism. Guys who challenge feminism will often be dismissed as “just an incel” or something to that effect.“Your point is that the pain these men suffer is worse than all the sufferings all the other groups in the history of mankind.”Obviously, I never said that. But this is the kind of thing I’m talking about: What *you* hear is that I’m saying they’re treated the worst ever in history when what I’m really saying is that they’re treated badly and disregarded, that’s not the same thing. But you’re hearing the thing that allows you to be dismissive of them rather than what I’m actually saying: They’re people just as worthy of consideration as anyone else, so let’s consider not being dicks to them.
“Because if they were just like everyone else, you would acknowledge they have to fix their issues like everyone else.”I’ve probably said like dozen times that they have a responsibility to themselves, but that doesn’t mean we have an obligation to not be supportive or helpful. We don’t tell the homeless guy “Don’t come back until you’re a renter.” We don’t tell the mentally ill “Don’t come back until you’re sane.” We offer such people real support and it doesn’t negate that they need to do right by themselves by making the right decisions regarding whatever they face moving forward regardless of whose “fault it is. Whose “fault” it is and the responsibilities you have to yourself are not the same thing. Yet here we are in a question about whose “fault” it is. “I find it interesting that you remain anonymous.”I find it interested that people consider it a problem.One of the reasons why I mostly post anonymous is because people don’t get to have preconceptions about me going into an argument. It very useful to go into an argument about say feminism, and then without revealing any information about myself I can get called a fuckboy or an incel and get all sorts of derogatory shit without having said any insults myself – other than disagreeing with their worldview I suppose. If they knew which, if either, of those things was true then that’s the one they would use to try to attack me. But by not correcting them and only representing my position anonymously and then getting attacked with baseless accusations, anyone reading along gets to see their true colours. Sometimes I admit to some of their assertions that aren’t true and argue from the position of “what’s wrong with that?” just to illustrate their mistakes from many angles.You and I have kept the name calling to a minimum, that’s much better than many others do and I appreciate that.
On the flip side of that I’ve had many conversations with people who follow me while I’m anonymous and I find consistently that we continue to share the same opinions and come to the same resolutions despite them not realizing who they’re talking to. Then I send them a message essentially saying, “good talk” and maybe talk some more in PM. I like when things go that way.“delusion”Interesting video. We can use this. Let’s work from the premise I am a delusional incel. Essentially what I’ve been saying is we should ask who or what convinced me of that delusion? Was there a man in a grey suit telling me all the wrong things? Maybe it was a woman in grey, or a brain tumour, or my culture, maybe it was my friends or not having friends or having too many female friends or male friends. Maybe it was too much fish or not enough, or maybe I ate lead paint as a kid. Maybe I had bad/no male role models or bad/no female role models. Was it feminism? Or was it patriarchy? Was it Russian hackers? Am I colluding with Russia? Did mother not hold me enough, or too much? Did I eat too much garlic?All I’m saying is that *something* is amiss. *Something* has gone awry. What brought us here? How can it be prevented in future generations? Few seem to be interested in digging deeper to find out. I don’t care whose “fault” it is. You have to take responsibility for your situation and make the most of it regardless of whatever external force may or may not be holding you down. I’m not talking about the personal level anymore. What I’m concerned about is “what has brought about this circumstance and how do we address it?”
My apologies about the length. I can be a windbag.
You have to start with B & W so we can figure out why people feel the way they do. Otherwise we are already saying it's not their fault.
There is a definition right above you that explains it! LOL
I only see the question 🤷♂️Don't really care tbh.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh gotcha! Cool!
Incels generally tend to hold right-wing views, not only on GaG. It kinda makes sense, if you think about it.
@Pamina There exist more right wing views than left wing views. Your answers are biased, right wing and left wing are not equal.
@esotericstory On GaG? Yes, very obviously.
@Pamina Everywhere. There is more diversity in the beliefs in the right wing than the left wing.
@esotericstory Sure, lonely anime boy. If you look at official polls on policy issues, the majority of people are in favor of left-wing policies, even the ones who traditionally vote conservative. That's what tribalism does. But the majority of people are in favor of gay rights, universal health care, and all those evil lefty ideas.It's funny you think I'm the biased one, considering you're a far right incel fascist. I'm muting this thread now, not gonna see any more of your delusional Alt-Right diarrhea. Enjoy your lonely life. :)
I think the Incels would disagree with you!