Absolutely no one should date someone they don't find physically attractive. We're in agreement there. Nor do I think any one, man or woman alike, is entitled to to anyone or their bodies. I am curious what the asker said that made you think he felt entitled to a woman or her body.I'm curious if you have any friends who are ugly. Do you think that being ugly makes one a piece of shit? If you don't have any ugly friends, if some accident maimed one would you all of the sudden think that person was a piece of shit. Or what if it were you? Suppose you were maimed and were now ugly. Would you suddenly think you were a piece of shit?Lizzy Velasquez is, in my opinion (and almost certainly the overwhelming majority of people's opinions) quite ugly. Google her if you're not familiar with her. But she's no piece of shit. Quite the opposite. She's a wonderful human being, even though I wouldn't date her.People can be ugly and not be pieces of shit. I know this because my brother works with disfigured people, and I have one friend who is unattractive and a great guy. My wife thought so too. "I’d say aim within your league"Yeah, I think answers like these are not well thought out. The fact of the matter is that ugly people don't find each other any more attractive than the rest of us do. Do this thought experiment. If you were maimed and rendered ugly, would you suddenly find ugly people attractive? No, you wouldn't. And if you got together with another ugly guy, then you would simply have two people who find each other repulsive. That's not a successful relationship at all. I often advise people to try to become as attractive as possible (which is often doable for most). If for whatever reason they can't make themselves attractive, then it's better to be alone than with someone you're physically repulsed by.
I really like this reply, it’s taken lots of time for you to write and it’s got some good points I can help expand a little. Entitled: as I said he sounds bitter. He’s generalising all women in one box saying we lie, which in fact we don’t all do (like me). I’m reminding him that even if a woman rejects him (through lies or based on his looks, as sad as that may be to him) he is not entitled to take steps to make her feel uncomfortable or to take advantage of her and force friendship or anything else through his anger. I’m no feminist so don’t think I’m hating on men, women can be like this too. I know many many people who have been in sitauations where they did not find a man physically attractive, they have told him they aren’t interested and yet he continues to either drug, rape, stalk, meddle in her life and at times even murder.Because the asker is how to say it, “eager” enough to assume all woman are liars and it clearly annoys him, he may be “eager” enough to take my above said drastic steps. Because he hasn’t taken the time to word the question well, I assumed he wouldn’t take time to read a full on explanation, hence I simplified to the reminder “you’re not entitled to a woman or her body” whether she lies to you and you want revenge or not.Being ugly does not make one a piece of shit, you can be just ugly or a piece of shit but I’m not dating an ugly piece of shit (which would be the above described kind of person who takes advantage of people). I do have many many ugly friends, and I’m no looker myself but I’m entitled to standards like we said when it comes to dating. For friendship I don’t need any attraction to them, and my friends aren’t pieces of shit or I wouldn’t hang around with them. Their beauty comes from the inside which unfortunately bitter, self loathing, blame the rest of the world types of people don’t have. If my lover was disfigured in an accident and there became no sexual attraction then yes I would leave.
This would be for his sake as much as mine. I have been in relationships where men don’t find me physically appealing and it hurts. You know that person isn’t happy and they don’t treat you as well as they could. You could be spending your time with someone who does find you attractive. Also we both know serious accidents that physical disfigurement don’t only change a persons physical appearance but also their whole way of looking on life and even their ability. This would be the case in which I would leave. Small minor injuries I wouldn’t find ugly. Disfigurement and genetic mutations etc are actually a great passion and study area of mine (though not in people). So I categorise the term “ugly” and “disabled” and “disfigured” very differently. They are not one in the same.Ugly people finding ugly people attractive, yeah you’re right, they don’t, and neither would I. But I wouldn’t go about asking guys out that look like the Zac Efrons and Jason Momoas of the world and be spiteful towards all men when I was rejected, I’m in touch with reality. As I said before I’m not going to be spending all that time and effort to look good to be hit on by a guy who can’t even tweeze his monobrow or take 5 minutes in the morning to shave his face or wash his junk. I’m making effort to look good for him so he should return that favour. This again is a type of entitlement a lot of men show, they put in no effort and expect all the pretty girls to come running. I stand by the “aim within your league” statement. Girls who don’t find these things important also won’t care if you do. You cannot expect people to find you physically attractive if you don’t eat right, exercise right etc unless that is their preference, and everybody likes different things, but no “beautiful” woman will go after an inherently and undoubtably “ugly” man. Everyone can look better with a bit of self care. It is another case of trying to force a friendship or relationship on someone who is not interested.
And I do strongly believe that nobody who puts in effort to their appearance is ugly, they might not be a stunner but if wash your face and hair, put on a tux and brush your teeth, most men look great. It’s always either down to weight or self care, and if you have one minor blip that makes you feel less confident get it fixed. Whatever it is the surgery is out there.
I certainly agree that the asker sounds bitter. However, nowhere did he say "all women." He just said "women," which could mean a group of any size. In a few of your comments you said "men," but I never construed that you meant all men, or even most men. Whereas it's entirely possible the asker might be prone to violence towards women, neither you or I know that. And I've read his other posts. Many others. He has not expressed a desire to do *any* of those things, and in fact has stated clearly he has no wish or intent to do them. I know him from previous accounts he's had. What he *has* stated is his desire to put a gun to his own head. People can be bitter about others and yet never harm a hair on their heads. In fact, I would say it's been my experience that most never do. For every one Elliot Rodgers, I believe there are many more who just turn the gun on themselves. That's not something I wish to encourage.
A very good friend of mine is in a similar situation. Born with FAS. He's not terribly disfigured, his face is just... well below average. Something offputting. Now he is NOT bitter at women. And certainly not bitter at the women who have rejected him. However, he is hurt. He is bitter about the situation, not people. And he has been alone twice as long as you've been alive. Over the decades I've seen it wear him down. To simply tell him he's not entitled to women is... weird. He already knows that. Furthermore, Steven here also already knows that, as he has stated in other previous posts on other accounts. And to simply tell my friend not to be bitter about his situation is thoughtless at best, and cruel (even if you didn't intend it that way) at worst. Some negative emotions are simply inevitable. Particularly when he's been told he looks like a creep (please note I said *looks* like one, not *acts* like one... the distinction is important because it's not his behavior, it's his appearance). And to have been rejected by every single woman he's ever been interested in. I'm sure he acted hurt. I'm sure he's bitter, and in spite of his best efforts, his bitterness comes through (he's only human). I also wouldn't at all be surprised if this is misconstrued by some as being bitter *at women* (he's not) and attempting to guilt them into dating him (he's not).
Furthermore, my brother has counseled people in Steven's situation. They are born disfigured, enough to make them physically unappealing. They have been rejected and alone twice as long as you've been alive. They weren't always bitter. In their youths they often weren't. But years and years of being rejected and having only people who are themselves unattractive available to them has made them bitter *about their situations* (an important distinction). It's easy enough for you and I to sit outside that situation and tell them not to be bitter, but I recognize that sometimes hurt and bitterness are inevitable. To tell them not to feel hurt and bitter is often cruel. Like telling someone who's wounded not to feel pain.As for you sticking around with your boyfriend after being disfigured to the point of being ugly, or him sticking around with you, I never asked that question. The question was, would you suddenly start to find other ugly people attractive? My guess is no you would not. Well my good friend, as well as the many people my brother counsels, have lived with this situation all their lives.
The words "expect" (which you introduced) and "desire" are not interchangeable. I desire to win the lottery. I don't expect to. My friend, and I believe Steven based on his posts in other accounts, and the people my brother counsels, do not *expect* Gal Gadots and Chris Pines. They do however *desire* someone they find physically attractive. They don't expect people they're attracted to to date them. They hope. That's very different. We all hope that we find someone we're attracted to. Very different from expect. And in the people in the case of my friend and the folks my brother counsels, they're not mad at the person when rejected, they're mad at the situation. Again, very different.
And I reiterate, I do not believe anyone, beautiful or average or ugly, should ever date someone they're not attracted to. And in the case of the people I've mentioned, they have never found someone they're attracted to who want them. I believe the only people in their league are people they cannot possibly be attracted to, because as you have agreed ugly people don't find other ugly people attractive.This is why in their case I cannot stand by the aim within your league mentality. That would mean aiming at people who repulse them as much as they repulse you. And I think no one should date anyone they find ugly. Such a relationship is a success on paper only. I speak with some experience, for I have on exactly one occasion dated someone I thought was ugly... and it was a nightmare. I never recommend it.
Instead what I recommend is for people to do their upmost to improve their physical appearance. Go to the dentist/orthodontist (there is a *HUGE* link between smiles and beauty... much more than most people are aware of). Yes, take care of yourself. Keep fit. And I agree with you. Most men do look great if they do those things. But not all. And I strongly disagree with you that "who puts in effort to their appearance is ugly" (and I would suggest you familiarize yourself with the "just world" fallacy if you haven't). Alas, I've known too many women who put in a lot of effort into their appearance. They exercise, they eat right, they groom themselves... and due to bad genetics they *still* look ugly, not just to me but to every other man who I know who knows them. Please google Lizzy Velasques and Brian Peppers. No amount of effort is going to make their physical appearance better. And some blips aren't minor. My friend isn't a candidate for any cosmetic surgery. He's been rejected by all of them. And many people can't afford cosmetic surgery.
But let's assume ol' Steve here *can* improve his appearance. Other than telling him to date women he's not attracted to, and calling him an ugly piece of shit, and belittling his pain by calling him butthurt, and telling him you're too good for him, and that you're fed up with guys like him, and assuming he's entitled to women when his previous posts on other accounts explicitly stated he doesn't feel that way, all of which is *FAR* more likely to get him defensive and not listen to you at all, do you think he can improve his physical appearance? If so, how? You can see his picture, so where could he start to improve? He's not overweight. Perhaps building more muscle? What do you think?And if Steve won't listen, there may very well be men and women like him who feel hurt and sad (all of which can be misconstrued as an attempt to force a guilt trip on them) who *will* listen. And to them I say much of what anonymous said is true. Most (she thinks all, but I think most) *can* improve their situations by self care. Or by improving one's charisma (something I fear Stevo is in greater need of than a shave and shower)
You need to read my original post again. I never stated Steve was an ugly piece of shit, I stated I would not date an ugly piece of shit. Steve did not ask me if I would date him. He asked if Women realise they sound ridiculous when they lie about guys looks, which I do not do.I never said to date women he doesn’t find attractive, you have put Steve in the unattractive bracket all by yourself there. He is incredibly average, like most men and women. By aiming in his league he should look for women with similar pay and effort into looks which Steve, my friend, you can definitely improve on with something as simple as a more modern hair cut, shave and new glasses (and smile in a photo). But I do not find him attractive, based on his race, not his presentation. Belittle his pain? Not true either. I’m stating facts, as you’ll see by other women’s comments on similar posts. He sounds butthurt. It’s a fact. Self loathing and depression are major turn offs for women of all ages. Therefore Steve’s biggest issue is probably that of his personality, one which can easily be fixed with counselling, maybe your brother can give him better psychological advice? He needs to stop blaming other people for his butthurt emotions and issues, it’s nobody’s problem but his own. If he wants more specific thoughts on his situations he can PM me and I can give an unbiased opinion. Telling him I’m too good for him? Well Steve is complaining that women don’t tell him the truth, I do tell the truth, which is what he seems to want.Calling a lovely women ridiculous because she tried to spare his feelings? Yes I’m fed up of men like that. I think it’s attention seeking and again should be fixed with therapy. Unfortunately I don’t have time to respond to every point made but I cleared up the original points for Steve (and others in his condition).
I haven't put Steve in the ugly bracket. You were the first person to use the term "ugly piece of shit," not me, which could *easily* be interpreted as you calling him an ugly piece of shit. Now I know you deny that you're calling him that, but I have only your word. For all I know, you could just be backpedaling. And it's only after umpteem paragraphs that you're saying he's incredibly average. Alas, my bro isn't on GAG and almost certainly is never going to be. I say Steve would profit more from him than you. I agree, you are fed up. That in my opinion makes you less capable of offering sound insight than my brother, who is not fed up. My brother is equal to you in honesty (perhaps more so). The thing is, he is capable of being very honest in ways that don't require clarification (ugly piece of shit) and he doesn't belittle people's pain. Ever.
I know you said you're not belittling his pain, and the sad thing is I'm sure you believe that. When you use the term butthurt, whether you intended to or not, you're belittling their pain. It is a term loaded with negative connotations designed to insult. I've met MANY people on GAG who are very skillful and capable of being very honest who never resort to terms like "butthurt." So let's start with what my brother *wouldn't* do, because frankly he's more competent than you or I. 1. Never use the term "butthurt" because he knows how laden with negative connotations it is and how insulting and yes, belittling it is, whether you intend to insult/belittle someone or not. Moreover he knows it makes it much more likely that you'll just shut the person down, make the defensive, and FAR less likely to listen to you no matter how intelligent what you have to say is. I've sat in on his sessions over many years. Never heard him say it.
2. Would never say, "I'm not dating an ugly piece of shit" in front of someone who believes he/she is ugly because he is aware the chances of it being interpreted wrongly are too high. 3. Never assume that a person feels entitled when it's not in evidence.4. Never laugh in front of or at a client when they're stating what they believe is a serious problem. 5. Never say "date within your league" if there's a distinct possibility the person can't possibly be attracted to someone in that league. It's possible that Steve falls into this category. 6. Never say it's easy to fix one's personality. I don't know of a single behavioral scientist who would agree with that. It's not easy, and is sometimes not even possible. He is very frank that in most cases, it's NOT easy to change one's personality.7. Never tell someone that they're "attention seeking," even if they are, on the grounds it just shuts them down and they won't listen.
So what would he advise?My brother believes in Step 1) Improving your appearance if possible (at the same time he acknowledges that sometimes it's impossible) Step 2) Stepping out of your comfort zone and start actually asking people out (many people don't do this) Step 3) If it's not possible to improve your appearance, and you cannot possibly be attracted to someone in your league, then it's best if you remain alone (at which point he fully admits this is often an unsolvable problem)He would also probably tell him to seek the advice of multiple people WHO DON'T RESORT TO INSULTING LANGUAGE (deny it all you want, your language is insulting and more than likely to require clarification or simply just shut the person down to the point of not listening to you) on how to improve himself and to avoid people who are fed up as it can cloud their judgment. The hair and glasses? Smartest thing you said, in my opinion.
It’s funny actually, doing some research and looking at Stephens old posts. I recommend everyone else do it. I thought he was relatively normal yet it’s apparent he has serious issues with women. This behaviour is not normal. It is incredibly off-putting, creepy and seriously concerning. He is alone because he has a toxic personality, which was worded perfectly by another woman on one of his millions of previous posts. Stop pussyfooting around him. People like him need SERIOUS mental help and to be put in touch with reality and not that from those who claim to relate through their families professions, my sister is a doctor yet I claim no knowledge of anatomy. He will be lonely forever if he spends his whole life complaining and blaming women and his face for his issues, quite frankly it’s pathetic. Maybe if he spent less time on GAG and more time in the real world he would meet someone. Stop looking for reassurance from strangers about your looks Stephen, as I’ve said you look average but the way you write out of spite will put women off. If you go on dates or even in the office constantly complain about your dating life nobody will want to spend time with you. Life is depressing enough without downers making it worse. “Ugly” people cannot expect good looking people to look past looks and “downgrade” if the ugly person themselves would not be willing to do so. Therefore I agree, if you don’t change the way you talk about women and your outlook on life, you and any prospective female will be better off alone. Which to answer another question you asked, yeah give up.This is the view of a young female, not a middle aged man. A middle aged man will not be able to look on Stephen as a prospective partner. He will not understand a females instinct when it comes to communicating with men online. And before you claim you know a female so that makes you an expert that is not the case. Stephen needs the truth. Stop trying to lighten the blow.
Good evening ma'am. I don't go complaining to other people on person except my best friend. Everywhere else I complain on this website or wisdo. I don't dislike women. Just the lying about not caring about looks is annoying. I never said I was entitled. I don't mind that women care about look in dating and sex. Everyone does. The point it is frustrating being 29 and never having a girlfriend still despite trying. I never went after only hit women in dating. Many women that are not hot have high standards in looks when it comes to dating (average and below average). Nearly person that knows me, likes me. They think I'm kind, chill, etc. It is just that I have never found success, in women liking me in a ROMANTIC WAY.
Correction: Nearly every person that knows me likes me. I forgot to add a word in my last reply.
"Stephen needs the truth. Stop trying to lighten the blow."I agree. And I'm not trying to "lighten the blow." I'm advising that insulting language isn't helpful. I agree with everything you said in the last post... as would my brother. It's just in the last post you dropped the insulting language. Very honest. Even respectful. I think the last post should have been your first post. I couldn't agree more that Steven needs to be put in touch with reality, but neither my brother, nor my friends who are therapists, would agree that using insulting language is likely to do so. Quite the opposite, in fact
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