Have An Opinion?
It's been done multiple times.I think it's stupid (one exception - see below) because it's biologically impossible for humans to be non-binary, and only possible to self-identity as such - the word for that is "delusional." This shouldn't be encouraged or promoted in games as normal, because it isn't.The exception is in science fiction or fantasy settings in which a non-human species exists that is biologically genderless. The only example of this I can think of that was actually well-done was the Mass Effect series, in which one of the alien races' entire evolution relied on having intercourse with pretty much anything living and breathing in the Galaxy, and so they were built to fill any role. An example that is rather odd are robots, such as Fl4k from Borderlands 3. The character is a robot (so no actual gender) but has a blatantly masculine voice and personality. The developers decided to use they/them pronouns in regards to Fl4k, but have always referred to other robots and AIs in the series as decidedly either male or female. In fact almost all games, movies and shows with robots will give assigned genders to robots based on their voice/personality.I don't recall ever seeing a non-binary character in Dragon Age, but that series has had a plethora of both well-written and poorly-written LGB characters.
If it is done well who cares? Wrath of the Righteous for Paizo Pathfinder had an entire DnD adventure with main NPCS that were LGTBQ related with one of them being a MtF trans. The story was compelling and it was done in a way that. Bam, interesting support characters with a dash of needed to be in the storyline. Then proceed on an awesome adventure where, the who, what, why they are wasn't overshadowing what made the adventure great.Just a good mix of well thought characters, good story telling and execution to make it a fun time.Me personally. I don't care.
Awesome 😊I’ve played D&D, but I never played Pathfinder.
@WhiteShoulder Paizo is the company. Pathfinder 1st Edition is like 3.5x (like 3.75 lol)They have an online forum and it's so much fun. :) Pathfinder can be as complex or simple in your class choices and such as you want to. But there are very few (count on one hand) of their adventures I didn't like. And they have like... 30 full campaign <1st to 17th level> adventures you can purchase in PDF or soft cover. :)I highly suggest you try it out if you enjoy it. :)
Sims 4 has the possibility to create non-binary characters. Personally I'm neither pro nor contra, I just don't care 😅 at least as long as the video game or movie industry doesn't try to make it the norm instead of a rare exception like it actually is.
I think they added one for sims 4 realm of magic. I was playing last night and found a dude sim that couldn’t make anyone pregnant and some of his outfits were both girly and masculine. I was confused at first but then caught on.
Well it is EA after all, they pander to that stuff
A game the features any form of politics will get a of negative reviews from gamers. Real life issues aren't fun or interesting.
Everything is political. Leaving non-binary people out of video games (when they exist in real life) is political.
They don't exist
True. Battlefield V is a good example of that.
@cipher42 "everything is political" is verifiably false, and is just a line that gets regurgitated by people who benefit from spreading such an erroneous belief. As to the matter of non binary characters in video games, I have no issue with that as long as it fits the story and the character, and the overall artistic direction of the game. If it's done just to score "diversity points", then it's nothing but political showboating. And gamers are a passionate bunch, we love a good game with a good story and interesting characters. But we come down hard on political showboating in our entertainment media.Out of curiosity, have you played any games with non binary characters? And did they influence your reception of the game itself?
I suppose Voldo from Soul Caliber could be considered non binary. I could probably dig up a few other examples if I thought about it long enough. But any such examples were probably from before "non binary" came into the English language. I'm sure some characters have existed in video games without a defined, fixed gender. My concern would be that if developers started adding such characters on masse here in 2019, then it would likely point towards an attempt to score "woke points", rather than to serve the narrative.
True what you have said
@SomeGuyCalledTom I haven’t. I was just idly curious. Thanks for answering 😊.
@SomeGuyCalledTom In this day and age where even scientific fact is a matter of political debate, I really don't know what isn't political. It seems like your issue with 'diversity points' writing isn't the diversity itself, it's the potential for bad writing- having characters who are diverse but have their diversity either as their only important trait or as a trait that conflicts with their actual background in the world somehow. Is that correct? If it is, then I don't think your issue is actually with the push for diversity itself, it's with bad writing. I really don't think consciously trying to include people of a lot of different races/class/genders/sexualities/etc can ever be a bad thing as long as the characters are still written well. What's far worse to me is people creating media making all the characters fairly homogenous, and only representative of people like them or close to them. That's just boring, and if writers have to aim for "diversity points" to make that not happen, I really don't mind.
@cipher42 if characters are well written I could care less what their skin colour or sexual orientation is. But it's when they shoehorn in those traits to tick off their "inclusivity checklist" that I have a problem with it. I also think a cast of characters can be fairly "homogenous" in terms of race/ gender/ orientation, and yet still be complex, interesting, well written characters. Diversity can of course include diversity along those lines of race/ gender etc, but the best form of diversity is when different characters bring diversity of actual personalities/ motivations etc to the equation. For example, The Last Of Us and Uncharted both have "straight white male" protags, but their characters are compelling and interesting, so their skin colour or gender becomes irrelevant to the story. I agree with your analysis in that good storytelling trumps all in my eyes. But political ideologues tend to make awful storytellers, as can be seen in the cringey Hollywood "woke reboots" coming out left right and centre of late. Just keep ideologues out of the gamemaking craft and there won't be any problems.
@SomeGuyCalledTom again, it really seems like your issue isn't forced diversity, its just bad writing. If they "shoehorn in" diverse characters, the thing that makes that shoehorning is the fact that they didn't make the characters fit the story well and vice versa. So the issue isn't at all with the addition of those characters in and of itself, its with the bad writing surrounding those characters. Which is also just bad diversity, because real representation of diversity requires the characters' diverse traits to be part of their personality, not the only noteable thing about them.What woke reboots specifically are you taking issue with?
@cipher42 I guess that sounds about right. Although forced diversity and bad writing go hand in hand. But forced diversity is worse, because it will always lead to bad writing. But bad writing doesn't lead to forced diversity. It always begins with that agenda in mind, and then that agenda trickles down into the quality of writing and storytelling throughout each level of the production chain. Shit flows downwards from the top, you see? I can tolerate "bad writing" in and of itself if the gameplay and/or art style makes up for it. But bad writing *as a result of forced diversity* is just an instant "NOPE" from me. Coz I play games to be entertained, not to be lectured. If the writing is poor while trying to be entertaining, I can at least see their hearts are in the right place. Poor writing while trying to lecture players is just a different kind of icky.
@SomeGuyCalledTom I just think that it's the other way around. Forced diversity doesn't lead to bad writing, bad writing leads to forced diversity. If a creator decides "I want characters from basically every minority group, for the diversity points" they can still pull that off if the writing is good enough- if the characters are fleshed out and are more than just whatever trait makes them diverse, and if the setting justifies why the characters are the way they are. If the writing is bad, then the forced diversity stands out, and feels forced. But it isn't really the diversity that necessarily makes the writing bad, it's the fact that the writing is bad, and the author trying to shove things in that they can't properly write or justify makes that super evident.
@cipher42 I suppose we can interpret it through either direction of causality, and the end result still amounts to the same. I'm not interested in what *could* happen, I'm interested in what actually *does* happen. And what *does* happen when forced diversity quotas bludgeon their way into any entertainment media is that the writing suffers. If the writing is good, then the only reasonable explanation is that the diversity was an organic inclusion (ie: NOT "forced"), since no creative medium ever benefits from having non-creatives forcing their agendas into the end product.Anyways, I feel like this conversation will just lead us into an infinite regression of circular logic where "A leads to B which leads to A which leads to B..." and in the end we're both kinda right and wrong at the same time. I think we're both in basic agreement that shoddy writing + forced diversity/ inclusion/ PC themes makes for poor entertainment. Perhaps there's some rare creative teams out there who receive their "forced diversity" marching orders from their company's HR departments, and still somehow manage to pull off a compelling story/ characters. But even then, I'd rather play through the story that the core creative team originally conceived of. Rather than the bastardised compromised version that some HR intern plumped full of diversity quotas and social justice themes. (I may be conflating two separate issues here to be fair-- a game can have a diverse cast to fulfil a quota, yet not have social justice messaging forced in. But often the two go hand in hand, since the people demanding diversity quotas have a tendency to wanna spread social justice messaging whenever the chance comes along)
and what happens if those diversity quotas become mandatory for all game developers? For games like Overwatch or Tekken it can work out just fine, as their smorgasbord-style character rosters lend themselves to a mixed diverse cast. But for focused narrative experiences where worldlore demands consistency and internal logic, then forced diversity becomes more apparent in an ugly way. Imagine if Lord of The Rings were remade, but all the dwarves and elves had to be an even split of races, genders, and sexual orientations. It would make no sense, and would compromise Tolkien's own realisation of the Elven people, and the world they inhabit. Quota-based characterisation only holds up when it's consistent with the established world lore. It's why if you play Rome: Total War, you're gonna be playing as white male roman soldiers for the most part, coz that's what makes sense in context of the game's internal logic and historical context.
@SomeGuyCalledTom I understand what you're saying, but I think maybe where we differ is that I think that designing a world that can't support a diverse cast is a writing defect in and of itself? Like, especially with fiction, it's not actually that hard to write a diverse world. Of course a work can be non-diverse and still well written in other regards, but the lack of diversity will put a lot of people off to the same degree that other writing flaws would. If a writer is actually good, they should be able to write a story with a reasonably diverse cast that still holds up writing wise, it's genuinely just not that hard. Of course this might be a little harder in trying to make established settings/stories more diverse, but even there there's not that many places where it's gonna be that huge of a challenge I think, provided the writer (s) are good enough.
@cipher42 well maybe I'm a little close to this topic, as I'm a writer by profession, and I'd rather close up shop entirely, rather than let someone else force me to change my writing to suit their personal tastes for "inclusiveness". I think storytellers are entitled to write the stories *they* want to tell without having anything forced upon them. Yes, game development encompasses more than just a single writer's efforts-- game mechanics, sound design, graphics, and many other departments all come together to tell a cohesive story. So it's a somewhat different dynamic than the "solitary artist". But still, the storyteller should retain first right to veto on anything being "forced" into his story."I think that designing a world that can't support a diverse cast is a writing defect in and of itself?" I could not disagree more, your position on this is indeed not conciliable with my own position. We may have to just agree to disagree on this one, as it's a premise I fundamentally reject and believe to be totally false. If one artist has the creative license to include 100 gender identities in his work, for example, then another artist has equal creative license to include just two genders. That's a very specific example, but you should be able to appreciate the reasoning behind it, whether or not you agree with me on this.
@cipher42 "Like, especially with fiction, it's not actually that hard to write a diverse world."
"Like, especially with fiction, it's not actually that hard to write a diverse world."It's not an issue of difficulty. It's an issue of creative freedom. If a storyteller doesn't want to create a "diverse world", you can't come in and tell him his world-building is "problematic" or "troubling" or "exclusionary" or whatever your word of choice may be.,
I mean, you *could* say all that, but he's equally free to ignore you
@cipher42 " the lack of diversity will put a lot of people off to the same degree that other writing flaws would." It will put off a small minority of people who are already predisposed to demand a certain threshold for inclusivity in their entertainment media of choice. Most people just want a good story to get lost in and don't care for identity politics in their media.
And hey, if we're gonna force diversity quotas into our entertainment media, why not be consistent about it, and start adding white English speaking men into all the stories that have been written about black African women. You can't have an all black, female cast if your diversity quota demands that all other races and genders be equally represented. Of course, I don't want that. Imagine telling the author of 12 Years a Slave that the lead character needs to be surrounded by a "diverse" cast where all the other slaves are a mix of black, white, latino, Chinese, gay, bi, trans, demiqueer, etc. It would kill the truth of that story, one "easy" compromise at a time.
@SomeGuyCalledTom I mean, I agree that we shouldn't be "forcing" anyone to tell the stories we want them to tell. But I'm also not really sure how we can define "forcing". Like, I don't think we should formalize some kind of "diversity quota", or make such a thing part of actual law. But I do think it would be good for society to develop an informal standard of regarding markedly non-diverse writing as flawed, which might mean market pressures causing writers to need to produce diverse work for the sake of their livelihood. Since I don't really think there's any actual threat of real "diversity quotas", it seems like what you're opposing here is people having the attitude that writing should be diverse and that non-diverse writing isn't good. And that seems pretty unfair to me.
@SomeGuyCalledTom Also, if you think that there is a real existing threat of writers being made to write diverse stories, then it would seem to me that there must be a place that threat is coming from- that being people who consume media who want that media to be diverse. If that group is actually able to present such a major threat, they must be a reasonable large group.
We as a people decide what's political and what's not. Including a certain kind of person in a video game doesn't have to be political, just like we wouldn't consider adding a female character a political move in and of itself.Also, it's ridiculous that people would be complaining about the very existence of a non-binary character in a video game. The complainers wouldn't be fun or interesting.
@cipher42 What scientific "fact" is under political debate? If your referring to "nonbinary", based upon all scientific data their is no such thing so their really isn't a debate. No one is andgrogenous to the point of not having identifiable gender characteristics. If your talking about transgenderism (their gender is flipped from their biological gender) then that is something that is true and does exist (as their over all brain structure is characteristic of the gender they identify as (and is also proof of the biological nature of gender)), but that is not the same as claiming their is no gender or many genders (both arguments people on the left make despite them being contradictory in nature (just as they argue for trangenderism yet claim that gender is a social construct (these are mutually exclusive concepts and if one exists the other cannot).
@hellionthesagereborn intersex people deeefinitely exist friend, that is not a matter of scientific debate. It's not that they have no identifiable sex characteristics, it's that they have mixed ones and thus don't fit cleanly into either binary sex category.But I am mostly talking about trans people, it's just that the existence of intersex people helps illustrate that even sex isn't perfectly binary. But as far as gender goes, the argument is usually not that it doesn't exist, just that its a social construct bc what it denotes is social franeworks for how people who are "male" or "female" act/dress/etc. Since those social frameworks are effectively "made up" they aren't considered as real as physical/biological distinctions and are considered more of a spectrum
@cipher42 Intersex people are an aberration, an incredible rarity and they are still definable. The intersex aspect refers to their sexual reproductive organs (transgender would be considered intersex as well, but with brain structure rather then reproductive structure). Its also a genetic defect and is incredibly rare. So your lumping in multiple things into one conglomeration, one Frankenstein concept in order to push this idea that you can have nonbinary genders which again, is not the case. It would be like saying that because some people are born with an extra chromosome that their are no chromosomes, its an absurd notion. Gender exists, we know it exists and while their are of course aberrations to this, it doesn't mean that gender doesn't exist or that its fluid or that their is some kind of gray area or that this is something that is incredibly common (the most cited statistics is.05% but even taking the absolutely most generous one still brings it to only 1.7%(and the study that concluded this is contested)). Further more they do adhere to a certain gender (some even get sex reassignment surgery to said gender). So even ignoring the fact that your conflating different things (intersex is not the same as non binary just as being sterile doesn't mean you don't have a gender), even if I was to grant that what you said was techinically correct (again, its not) it still is so rare that its irrelevant.
@cipher42 As for transgenders, again, gender flipped is not the same as no gender. All data, like I said before, shows that gender is a real thing, its cross cultural, its cross species even as far as primates go. www.sciencedirect.com/.../S0149763413003011academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/5/2034/2660626https://www.nature.com/articles/378068a0www.newscientist.com/.../www.sciencedaily.com/.../150213112317.htmwww.sciencedirect.com/.../S0022395610001585
@hellionthesagereborn It's not more common than red hair, which could also be called an "abberation", yet we sure see plenty of redheads in video games. And yeah, there's a lot of different things that can cause someone to be classified as "intersex", but that just demonstrates how complex sexual categories actually are. And you seem to misunderstand what being non-binary means, or perhaps you're just strawmanning. Why do you think that arguing that people don't have to be male or female means that there is no gender at all? What do you think gender is/what proves that it exists?The reason I'm using intersex people to prove my point is that a lot of people's ideas of gender are based strictly on sex, they tend to conflate the two categories. Demonstrating that people who are not strictly one sex or the other serves as a good way to lead into the idea of there being people who are not strictly one gender or the other.
Also, can you elaborate on what the studies you linked are meant to demonstrate? I would interpret them as saying that gender is correlated with brain structure, and that transgenderism is potentially linked to people who have brain structures closer to the gender they identify as than the gender associated with their sex. You seem to be arguing that it proves that gender exists, which isn't really something I ever argued against. What I did argue against is the idea that either sex or gender are strictly binary, which is not the same thing as saying that the categories "don't exist" (though it does, to me, point to the idea that both are to some degree spectrums, and that the way we categorize sex/gender is at least somewhat arbitrary). It's like defining organisms into different species. There are objective differences between one species of animal and another, fairly robust ones usually. But, how robust the differences have to be between one kind of animal and another before they're considered different species isn't really objective, it's an arbitrary cut off that we came up with because it made sense and was useful. Not fake, not non-existent, but not objective either.
@cipher42 Yeah, your really bad at rationalizing your belief structures. What those scientific documents show are several things, one that gender is biological (you absolutely tried to deny this, you suggested that behaviors where social in nature when in reality they are informed by biology), two that based upon this data their are no "non binary" people, their are simply those who are one gender or the other but that it may not correlate with biological sex, and three that being intersexed is not the same as being non binary or transgender and that it is exceedingly rare. All of which are points you tried to argue against. As for your claims of me strawmaning, no. Your attempting to move the goal post, if you are one gender or another that then means by definition, you are not "non binary" as their are two genders and data shows that people fall into those two catagories which would be the binary part of that, and the fact that they fall into one or the other category would be the antithesis to the "non" part of your claim. Ergo what you have stated is, based upon scientific data, factually incorrect. I'm sure your going to completely ignore everything that was stated, but it will not change the facts.
@cipher42 The best you can argue is that some people are more male or more female then others, but again this is still binary and not the same as "non binary" which would be the absence of gender (as again, all data that I have also presented, shows that their are only two genders). If you are going to argue that because some one is not 100% exactly this way or that, and this is proof that none of it exists, or it exists but not in the way science states, or that it exists but only under the conditions and circumstances you want them to because its more convient for your world view or what ever other claim you wish to make, is absurd. That would be the equivalent of saying that every one with even a singular trait that is different must therefore not be human and must be its own separate species, its insane (and dehumanizing really). So again, your wrong.
@cipher42 Also I would point out that your claim that people conflate "sex and gender" is rather meaningless as the only time we see a distinction is in the rare cases of transgenderism (and one could argue intersex) which again, taking the most open ended definition of both gets you a little over 1.7% of the population (and again, this is considered to be false and has been rebuked by scientists quite a bit). Ergo it would be like saying that its wrong to define a human being as having two arms and two legs and two eyes, sure its technically true that they don't always have these things due to accidents or genetic defects, but the overwhelming majority do and when their is no failing in DNA coding they absolutely have these traits. So its arguing a technicality and one that is incredibly rare at that, for 99% of the human race sex and gender are one and the same.
@hellionthesagereborn can you point out to me the parts of those studies that claim that neurological gender differences are caused exclusively by hormone levels/biological factors and not by upbringing/socialization? And also the parts that claim that the brain structures form two very distinct categories rather than being more of a spectrum?
@cipher42 Sure, its in every single one of the studies I pointed out not to mention the very fact that transgenders exist (as you cannot be raised and socialized to function as one gender while having an innate feeling of being the opposite gender (and as some of the studies point out, they found those neurological difference in pretransitioned transgenders)(Strange though, you said you where not arguing that gender was biological, now your suggesting its not. you really need to make up your mind about this). In fact biology plays such a strong role in gender differences that we even see it in our closest relatives, chimpanzees: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4049619/
@cipher42 As for the spectrum part, as I pointed out we know that their are distinctive features of males and females. That doesn't mean their are no incidents of cross over but rather that those are rare, that they are not a perfect amalgamation of those characteristics. Just like you can have more masculine and less masculine men you can have that with brain structures. That doesn't mean they are not males, that they are not clearly male, that they are some kind of new third gender or non gendered. A man can like something that is generally feminine while still being masculine. Its not a 100% or 0% scenario, but that doesn't mean that because one guy dislikes sports that their is no such thing as gender and he is no longer a man either (as I have pointed out several times). What your doing is arguing the anecdote, your trying to cherry pick and find the one thing that doesn't quite fit and then turning around and saying that the other 99% doesn't exist. That's not how it works. As stated, we know that their are two genders, their is no third gender or 87 different genders (as some are trying to suggest). We know that even those who are androgynous are still definable as one or the other. Again, all of this is in all the scientific papers I linked you to.
@hellionthesagereborn You could stand to see things in terms that aren't just black and white. I freely acknowledge that biology has some effect on gender identity and expression. I'm just not convinced that gender/gender expression is 100% determined by biology. And from what I can find in the studies, they do not in fact say what I asked if they said. I asked whether they showed that "neurological gender differences are caused exclusively by hormone levels/biological factors". And the studies, in fact, seem to say that while hormones/biology certainly INFLUENCE neurological gender differences, other factors such as environmental factors also play roles.And is cross over rare? How rare? In terms of brain differences, how much do men and women overlap? THIS is what determines how binary gender is, not the general trends. A spectrum can be mostly two colors, but there's still usually an area where they blend, an area where the color is not one of the two primary colors but something in the middle. I want to know how large that middle area is- how distinct the categories on the spectrum.
@cipher42 I'm not, I never did nor did I suggest that. What I said is that their is no third gender, their is no non binary. As for you, you keep saying things to disregard biology or diminish its role. Biology doesn't have "some" affect on gender, it is the predominant factor, one could even say the overwhelming majority of gendered behavior is due to biology. You keep trying to move the goal post and then when you get called out on it you side step it and try to avoid the arguments made. Why? If you where correct you wouldn't need to, if you accepted facts and science you would acknowledge being wrong and move on. You do neither. Gender is predominantly biological, period. We know that its not social because transgenderism exists, period. We know that their are no brain structures that are neither male nor female, period. We know that their is no one who is perfectly androgynous and will have either a dominant male or female brain based upon their brain structures, period. Ergo, based upon scientific data you are wrong. Again you appealing to the anecdote, appealing to the exception, appealing to the minority is not an argument. Yes environment plays a part in personality development, that doesn't mean that its the only factor, it doesn't mean its the primary factor or the majority factor, it means its a factor and based upon the data its a small factor. Based upon the data its rare that their is significant cross over, as in less then 10% of the population and again, just because a woman doesn't like pink or a male doesn't like football doesn't mean they are some other gender or "nonbinary". Its a stupid argument and its not backed by science. I know a guy who is missing a finger, does that mean he is a separate species now? Of course not. So if their is some one who has a quirk and maybe had a trait that is not generally found within their gender now some other gender entirely or has no gender at all? Of course not. So why argue it?
Guys can you take this to pm or something, I'm sick of getting notifications for this
Well I think its stupid because their is no such thing as all scientific data shows that their are males and their are females and their is no real in-between (their are those who are slightly less masculine/feminine, their are those who have their gender flipped (transgender) but none that are some perfectly androgynous or third gender). Dragon Age had a bisexual character, not a "non binary".
Got it. Thanks for answering.
Yeah go for it, a character is a character, and diversity is great for making unique and developed characters. Claiming that it's wrong or weird is ignoring the real life diversity and examples of real people who identify with this. And it's also not even a political issue. You don't have to be offended if you see someone with an identity or worldview you disagree with. Like you don't usually agree with the villain, and there will be npc's with differing opinions. It's not a political move to take inspiration from real life ideas or people to create interesting and diverse characters and plots. In fact that's good writing.
How exactly would you have a non-binary character in a video game?Let male characters wear wigs and skirts?I think that if video game developers want to spend the extra resources on making their games non-binary friendly, they can.But since non-binary people aren't the target demographic, they most likely won't ever do that because it would be a completely nonsensical business decision.
Hmmm. Hadn’t thought of that.
Its a terrible idea.Its like having a minority in a video game, okay put down your torches and pitchforks and let me explain that, I'm not racist.There was a time when movies and TV didn't really have minorities shown in anyway and at some point producers starting including them which lead to everyone having to include them as the "token minority" because without one they were accused of being racist.If a video game starts to include a non-binary character then other games will try to be inclusive of the same to the point that games without one will be seen as prejudiced.This has nothing to do with my opinions of non-binary people, this is purely fact, and this is probably the wrong medium to discuss political views.
If they do it, I'd prefer they have a reason behind the choice for the character, affecting their motivations, struggles, etc, instead of treating it like it's mostly irrelevant. To me it actually feels more heavy-handed and politically motivated when they make it mostly irrelevant, like a "skin" for your character, as opposed to relevant.From my standpoint, decent writing makes few superfluous decisions. Choices about a character like their gender, sexual orientation, etc, can influence their entire upbringing and the way they perceive the world and the way the world perceives them. It seems like the most PC approaches try to trivialize these differences as much as possible. If the differences are largely just superficial, why even bother with them? So I prefer a less superficial approach.
In my opinion, that's a more respectful and empathetic approach as well. It acknowledges differences that are more than skip deep in the way the character experiences and perceives the world. Like why even bother with female characters or male characters if they're identical to each other? Surely even the basics like physiological differences, and differences in hormones, and the way society views the two sexes will influence their behavior. It's like I'm almost certain I'd come out different if I had a female body, or if I identified as non-binary. So a respectful and empathetic approach deeply acknowledges that in my opinion.If it's treated as just a "skin" for the character, then it doesn't acknowledge the differences. It turns a blind eye and ignores them. And that takes all the interesting aspects out of these choices of how to design and write a character out of the equation.
That makes a lot of sense
In my opinion, it helps with the empathy part. Like take Ripley from Aliens:She is not just a woman as a "skin". She has maternal instincts, love for her daughter who passed away, and that love transfers to Newt. She is not gung-ho marine type like the marines she works with, but more experienced than them dealing with the xenomorph threat. It's like the film made that gung-ho "macho" attitude of the marines at first look absolutely stupid.She was cautious and experienced, and so much so that she ended up being better suited to survive than all the rest. That's interesting. Whatever sexist views I had as a boy, the film might have even managed to help me overcome them... not so much from Vasquez (although she was cool):... but from Ripley. Because more women I encounter resemble Ripley than Vasquez, and this film showed me the strengths of a woman like Ripley. But the fact that she was a woman was not a superficial choice. The film helped me to emphasize (at least as much as I could as a guy) with the experience of being a woman in Alien and Aliens.And I think that's the way to go to help people empathize with a wider range of people. I don't think it helps when we pretend like there's no difference here.
I totally agree
[...] The film helped me to [empathize] (at least as much as I could as a guy) [...]So to me, it helps to relate more to characters to actually avoid trivializing their differences.
Cheers! Sometimes I feel a bit controversial here. But I actually have a similar goal as the PC crowd. I just think this approach works even better even as far as the goals of helping people appreciate a wider range of people. :-D Sometimes I think the PC types do more damage than good by trying to trivialize the differences as much as possible because then they start creating characters that no one can relate to in real life.
You make a very good point
Utterly pointless.You don't pick your character's gender identity in games like Dragon Age, you pick their secondary sex characteristics, i. e body shape and features.If it has ever been done, I can't imagine it having any consequence to the actual game-play unless it's some trash indy game that specifically makes a big deal about it.
I think that people use video games to get away from real world issues so it's likely to annoy gamers unless it's handled well. I think there was a character like that in one of the persona games, but they didn't make them a one note token character so it was fine.
It has been done quite a lot before. It always causes controversity though. Companies have to absolutely make sure that you know x is this sexuality and y is this gender. It's unnessesary and just emphasises the idea that different sexualities and genders aren't the norm.Games like breath of the wild, Rainbow 6 siege and battlefield 1 are examples of games that include character sexualities, genders and race diversity in a good way in my opinion.
I wanna try Breath of the Wild. I liked Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess.
Technically, several alien characters in games have been non gendered. I enjoy video games the way they are. The feminist and other parties need to stop pushing their agenda to ruin a good thing. Non binary seems rediculas, like do I get to choose a pronoun then whether I want a dick or vag? It's way too complicated for a simple video game I play on my downtime. Don't fix what's not broken.
If it makes sense with the story and setting of the game then I don't have a problem with it.I've played a lot of dragon age and that's not a thing as far as I'm aware but maybe I missed something.Pretty sure Vampire the masquerade: Bloodlines 2 is going to have that as an option at character creation from what I've heard. Though I'm not sure if it's confirmed or not.
Awesome! The original Bloodlines was a cool game.
Yeah for sure. It's probably still in my top 10 games tbh xD
I don't have an immediate example right now but it could make the interactions between characters more interesting, I'm okay with such characters in the story. The problem with video game writers is they can't write a decent story, regardless of politics.
Good. Mass Effect has a whole race of them called asari
Funny how people say it would ruin games or its SJW mess lolBut seriously... Mass Effect is renown for its story, and the Asari is almost everyone's favorite alien race lolBut those same people bitch and complain about it as a whole. 🙄
@HeavenSentInstrument I’m know... lol. I prefer the Quarians though.
Quarians are pretty cool.I was just upset that they looked so much like humans!😂
Demon souls had a gender slider for the character creator. A game on the horizon Cyberpunk 2077 is doing that. Makes more sense anyway, most of the people are not made out of flesh.
I like cyberpunk stuff
Binary/non binary ideology is not concrete/subjective and would probably hurt sales more then help them.Plus LGBT probably would hate them for not getting it completely correct , as if non binary was well defined to begin with.If they wanted to be realistic with amounts here only a small handful of games would actually have them.
to be honest unless they spend time to actually tell someone no one will notice or care. they will just associate them with whatever gender they look like. (and if the game did make it a big deal it would probably be annoying)
True. It isn’t always obvious.
It wouldn't bother me but ummmm will I get bombshelled with hate if I say I believe there isn't such a thing?
No. I respect your opinion.
I don't mind it. It doesn't bother me, it's also not something that improves the games for me though so I'm pretty neutral.
DRAGON AGE MASTER HERE. And i don't think i ever came across a non binary character in any of the 3 games lol
CoolAnd that's awesome!! But your character can have sex in Dragon Age, right? That's what my guy friend told me.
Well, yeah. Especially if you start to install all these weird mods, in Dragon Age 3.
Inquisition you can fuck a lot of people, from the Qunari to Cassandra lol
Do we have to have this gender bender crap shoved down our throats everywhere we go. Can't we at least escape it when we are playing a GAME for fucks sake? It's a GAME! Stay out of my GAMES!
I don't know I honestly hate when they try to bring politics into a game if the artist or creator or story writer is introducing a character it should feel natural not forced.
Imagine if someone decided to bring politics into the subject of your dinner and what it should have? Lmfao
Good point. I totally agree.
Including a type of people in a game that exist in real life should not be that political- it really should be leaving them out that oughta be considered a bigger statement (since it's the option that *doesn't* reflect real life). And anyway, fucking everything is political, it's just about how much it goes against mainstream political beliefs. This false neutrality crap really needs to go
They don't exist IRL, only in their minds
@Nachowedgie You realize that intersex people are a thing? And no matter what your PERSONAL opinion on trans people is, people who identify as trans do exist in real life, so not putting them in games at all is unrealistic.
An exception is not a spectrum, their gender is decided by many tests that doctors do.People who pretend to be the other gender exist sure, but they're still one of the two existing genders, their biological one at that, not the one they're pretending to be.It's totally unrealistic because those people are such an extremely tiny percentage of the population that putting them in a game would be disproportionate, plus they're not the target audience because if they were the game would crash and burn miserably
I dont have a problem with it. Its just if its shoved in your face consistently, then it would get annoying. It kinda goes the same way for me in normal life. As long as it isn't always shoved in my face, then I dont see an issue with it
Fafnir, like the dragon. Cool 😊. I had a stuffed dragon named Fafnir as a kid.
Omg yaas. Its been all my account names since I had my PS3
Awesome 😊Sigurd/Siegfried was the one who killed Fafnir.
Always wondered why the Gauntlet of Siegfried was called what it is in Black ops 3 lol
That’s why 😊
So basically, if I meet anyone in D2, or any call od duty, named Siegfried, im screwed. Damn.
Basically 😂. Or Sigurd.Imma go to bed now. Night 😊.
Alrighty, night ✌
I'm pretty sure Link In those Zelda games is non-binary
No, he’s a guy.
If it makes sense for the game I don't care as long as it's a good character, if they're thrown in for diversity it's better not to have any
Cool. Thanks 😊.
Well, considering games are digital, all characters have been... binary. Thank you all, I'll be here all night.
No.Idiotic. there's 2. Pretending there's more is insane.
I don’t give a crap frankly. Any game I play I either see just the weapon I’m holding in FP or the back of the avatar’s head.
You don’t play RPGs, I guess
I am completely for it but I’d imagine the game would receive immense backlash from a lot of players.
Because it's unrealistic, plus we play games to get away from reality and it's bs
As long as the game us a good game and it does not detract from story. Characters, or try to make a political statement or social justice warrior I dont care. A good game is a good game.
Keep identity politics out of video games (think Gamer Gate).
I’ve heard of that
I don’t know if it’s been done before, but I do know that it feels good to be represented, I like shows that have asexual characters because it feels good to have my small percentage of people represented.
FL4K in borderlands 3 is non binary. Idgaf about it really.
Awesome :-)You just like to play the game.
Yeah. No point in destroying my fun or enjoyment over something silly like that.
Cool. I just think it adds to the RPG aspect.
Yeah there are games like mass effect that have that. And depending what you mean by non-binary some others as well
In what sense do you mean non-binary?
Not cis male or female. Maybe trans. Or bigender. Or androgynous (maybe that’s the same as bigender; not sure).
Well I guess some where they don't specify a characters gender where you choose yourself if that makes sense?
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.
I'm glad. Its just cause they don't specify so you can feel more immersed in the character and events by making it up in your own mind.
I like that.
Yeah I like the you make your own story aspect
Non-binary is a meaningless term so it would just be confusing. Also I don't play games where gender is a major factor.
Only one I know of is Fl4k from Borderlands 3 and I don't mind because it isn't done in an annoying way or overly emphasized. Also I just perceive Fl4k as being male because of the voice.
Same thing I think of a non-binary people irl. Ut's stupid.
Not somthing I would care about and I don't think they did do it in Dragon age now I think about it
I think they did it in apex legends
Yee they did. Not in Dragon age tho.
As long as they're not Mary Sues, they're fine with me
What's a Mary Sue?
A character who's basically perfect. No imperfections, no defects, no weaknesses. Practically, a character you can't relate too
That sounds like a terrible character
I agree, no Mary Sues and I would add unbelievable character either.Im tired of I'm a bisexual whore, and that's all I do on film/comic/book.
@lernulo most bi people aren’t whores. Or even slutty.
@whiteShoulder I know, but scripters should learn about it
I don't care if they are an option only in character creation, but gaming companies should not force them down our throats.
It's not a big deal to me as long as they leave politics out of it. Write a good character, then decide their sexuality and identity--not the other way around.
It would pretty interesting like a scfi alien game.
More power to you but I don't want to see fictional characters on the Madden screen
Madden’s a football game
Dragon Age Inquisition had a FtM trans. A game developer can if they want to spend the time and resources into adding a non-binary character.
I’m sick of the non binary shit you’re either male or female.
If they occur in real life I don't see why they shouldn't be in video games.
They already have orcs and elves in videogames might aswell have more fantasy creatures.
They had it in wwf smackdown - you could set your gender as "other" so you could win all the titles.
The hell is a non binary character?
Non binary gender
A trans person. Or a bigender person. Or someone who looks or acts androgynous.I think. I’m not 100% sure myself. That’s why I asked the question.
If someone has sex traits of both genders, that’s fine then. But being merely androgynous or identifying yourself as different genders at different times is stupid. But I don’t know what it is in full lol
Thanks for answering 😊
Can't you already design just about any Sims character you like?
It does not matter to me, no matter who the character is, if the game is good
Unicorns, Orcs, Elves, and Non-Binaries are ALL imaginary.
Non-binary people are rather more real than any of the rest. Even if you've got a weird issue with trans folks, there's still plenty of intersex people who are perfectly non-imaginary
Rather, I have a weird issue with reality. I prefer it to "whatever I'm feeling at the moment".
You don't prefer reality, you prefer *your* reality. Your personal reality, based on your own limited perceptions of the world and interpreted through your own biased psychology. Again, do you realize that intersex people REALLY exist? In reality?
There is no such thing as "my reality", reality IS regardless of my personal preferences.Someone who is truly hermaphrodite is not the same as "identifying as non-binary".
And who is qualified to tell you what reality IS? Because the scientists, the people who I'd imagine are the qualified ones, sure don't agree with you.
Reality reveals itself to the observer.XX Chromosome = femaleXY = maleCan you produce sperm? You're male! Do you possess ovaries and a uterus? Female.Science! Observe, describe and predict.
XXY chromosomes? Infertile? Had uterus removed? Born without ovaries? Born with apparently female genitals, then developed male ones around puberty?Like sure, generally speaking, we can classify biological sex characteristics into two general categories. Buuuut, those categories aren't really as neat as people like you, with your artificially neat reality like to pretend. Just like a lot of things, the real world is a little bit more complicated than high school science class tells you it is.Also, how do social gender roles factor in? We sure don't treat people of different sexes as if the only thing different about them is biology, there's a bunch of other shit involved- how long their hair is, what clothes they wear, what activities they enjoy. That sure seems like it should be a whole other category, since it's not exactly inherently connected to chromosomes, so why should it be lumped into the same group? Whatever should we call these things, these things that aren't biological, but are still treated as connected to the biological sex categories we've set up? Maaaaybe, we could call these things gender, to make it clear that they're not the same thing as sex. Maybe that way, we could have terms to understand it when some people feel like they fit better with the category that people associate with a biological sex different from their own. And hey, it seems like people like that are a lot happier when we accept that, and treat them like they are that social category! Maybe we should do that, since it's awfully nice to be nice to people, and since making the world a nice place for people to live in is pretty much the most important thing anyways.
Unfortunately, the artifice is squarely in the "I am whatever I think I am" camp.The notion of "separating" gender from biological sex is a late 20th Century invention.Kleinfelter's sufferers are described as male. But even then it's an exceedingly rare genetic disorder and one does not build a rule on an exception.
A lot of late 20th century inventions are pretty damn correct. Take modern science, for one thing. Again, who do you think should be the authority on reality? The way you're talking, it seems like you think it should be you personally. How do you think we should talk about the social categories that surround sex? What term should we use for the way that one general category of people tends to wear makeup and dresses and have longer hair, while the other tend to not wear makeup, and care more about sports, and wear pants and suits (in broad, stereotypical terms, since that's apparently how we're constructing our categories here)? Because it is a thing that exists, and it sure would be nice to have a word to use for it. Yeah, people with Kleinfelter's syndrome are often described as male. But that's just the point- they get lumped in with the category that you yourself identified the first defining feature of as being "have XX chromosomes". The fact that they don't have that, but still get lumped into that category shows how not-so-totally-neat-and-accurate that category is.
In all fairness though, orcs and elves have a rich history in video games, so if non binary character makes sense in context of a game's worldlore, then I don't see an issue with that per se.
@SomeGuyCalledTom they do 😊
@cipher42 Do people who identify as non-binary usually have XXY chromosomes? Are they usually born without a reproductive organ?
@Lite3000 I don't think there's been much work done on researching to what degree intersexness and non-binary identity overlap. I have heard anecdotes about intersex people who had "corrective" surgery done as babies to make their genitals look like binary genitals ending up identifying as transgender/non-binary, but I don't think there's research on how commonly such things actually happen. But that's not really that essential to my point. My main point is that even if you refuse to acknowledge transgender people's identities as valid, non-binary people still exist, because there are people whose biological sex can't be classified neatly as male or female. Now, I think transgender people's identities are valid regardless, but I don't have to prove that point to prove that non-binary people are a thing that exists.
Non-binary code is what we should strive for
😂😂😂That actually did make me laugh out loud
all characters are made of binary code.
I feel like you’re not joking...
I am joking. Everything on this site is binary code as well. It's to see how everything is made digital.01001001 01110100 00100111 01110011 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110110 01100101 01110010 01111001 00100000 01110011 01101001 01101101 01110000 01101100 01100101 00100000 01110011 01100101 01110010 01101001 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01111001 01100101 01110011 00100000 01101111 01110010 00100000 01101110 01101111 00100000 01110001 01110101 01100101 01110011 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01110000 01110010 01101111 01100111 01110010 01100001 01101101 01110011 00100000 01100001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01100011 01110010 01100101 01100001 01110100 01100101 01100100 00101110
Villagers in Minecraft are neither men nor women.
Retarded as there are only Male and Females
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