Guys and Feminism?

I'm just wondering why so many guys seem so opposed to feminism.

Honestly, I can see why men oppose radical feminism (the kind that believes women should be dominant and should separate themselves from men), but to be blunt, most guys are feminists without realizing it. Liberal feminists (not Liberal politics-just a category) want as much equality as possible, and most guys I know are pretty supportive of that. They think women should have the same rights and opportunities as they do, and that gender shouldn't dictate your place in life. Don't most people feel that way? There might be a few discrepancies, but in my experience it generally seems to be the way people feel. So, where does the hostility come from? Is it just that guys only see radical feminism when they think of feminism?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious about guys's view of feminism and their reasons for it.

And yes, I consider myself a liberal feminist, but am perfectly willing to admit that men can excel where women don't and I need and want men in any society I'm part of!


Most Helpful Guy

  • I agree with the stated mission of feminism, which is equality, but it's hard to identify yourself as a feminist when basically everything on the feminist political agenda is designed to segregate by sex. No rational person can say that lowering entrance requirements to a degree program for a certain sex is "equal opportunity" -- it is the opposite of equal opportunity. Is creating laws that differentiate the severity of a crime based on whether the victim is a man or a woman equality? No, it is the opposite of equality. It's feminism.

    So no, I am not a feminist nor will I ever be, because I believe in equality.

    • The mission of feminism was about equality for women, it was never about equality for men. It was never just about "equality" in general. I think the fact that they ignore mens rights to this day, and have been throughout history is pretty consistent.

Have an opinion?

What Guys Said 20

  • I can't speak for other guys but for myself the big problems I had with it turned out to be a lot of misconceptions. One of them you mention straight away: feminists (like any other group) are not a monolithic entity. They have diverse opinions. I have no idea where I got the idea that they were all radical.

    I think a lot of it had to with how I felt about myself at the time. I was feeling kind of worthless and down and out at the time. Like I was naturally unattractive and that I had nothing to offer women. I was never one of those male chauvinists, rather I resented the (made up) notion that it seemed (even to me) that it was generally accepted that women were better than men. I felt like I was a considered a biologically obsolete, impulse driven animal and women were these perfect angels who didn't have anger or hatred or jealousy. I sort of felt left out and eventually I realized "Well now you know how the suffragettes (or any leaders of the early women's movement probably felt". I don't know how those beliefs developed but it seems I wasn't the only one. Of course I even then I always believed in equality and women should earn the same wage , etc.. But I just saw misandry in everything and in my head I was a minority when really I'm a white male. If anything I'm unfairly privileged. It was a real epiphany to me when I realized that women were just like me in more ways than they were different and I gained a new love and respect for them.

    That's my story. Take from it what you will.

  • Pretty much what you suggested about men only seeing radical feminism.

    We have a 5 to 1 male to female ratio where I work (approximately) but then I work in aviation which has always been a male-dominated industry. On top of that I'm a ground crew worker, lot's of heavy lifting.

    Now granted, most of these women can do the heavy lifting just as well as most of the men, however I can think of two of these women who are incredibly lazy and play the gender card whenever they're getting disciplined. There was an incident a while back where two of these women (one of which is openly gay/lesbian and the other of which is openly bisexual) brought up a sexual discrimination suit against a male supervisor (this guy doesn't deserve to be a surpervisor but that's another story entirely). It ultimately went nowhere but this guy has the black mark on his record for the rest of his life, which means he's basically stuck where he is, though I can't say I feel sorry for him nor that he didn't ask for it.

    I don't care if you're male, female, a little of both, black, white, blue, hispanic, tall, small have some kind of mental disability or whatever, if you can do the job to satisfaction (and put this ability in motion) and don't use anything that makes you a minority as a crutch you deserve to have the job and be paid equally.

  • males and females are not equal no matter how much you want them to be... men will allways be stronger, women will allways be better multi-taskers... ect...

    and the problems that I have with feminism personally have to do with the fact that they say "we wanna be equal" but then they expect to be treated differently... for example... a male who wants to be a firefighter has to do a test including dragging a 150 pound bag to safety... females only have to drag a 100 pound bag... how is that fair? what if the female who drags the 100 pound bag get the job over the male who dragged teh 150 pound bag and then she goes in and finds a 150 pound person who needs to be dragged out, and can't do it... that person dies because she is physically weaker than a man...

    and then they also expect men to pay for dates, and hold doors open, and put them above themself... I have no problem treating a girl nice like that... but if she complains about how unequal it is in the world and how its against girls then I will be p*ssed...

    i belive that women and men should be treated mostly the same, but there are situations where a woman or man is just automatically more qualified over the other sex.

    and you might be better off explaining ur beliefs to people rather than labeling yourself a feminist.

    • I agree that we will never be equal- equality for me means equal rights, and treatment which means the standards should be the same for everyone. I'm with you about firefighters- I'm a small girl, but I'd rather be carried out of the house by a guy who can lift more than my weight than by a girl who can just lift me. And, just so you know, not all girls want a guy to pay or hold open the door all the time. I don't- I want a guy who respects me, but I don't need to be on a pedestle.

  • There are so many more examples of inequalities such as alimony, conscription, etc. especially in other countries. And you wonder why guys get upset when feminists complain about women’s problems.

    Now, I have proved to you that there are ample inequalities for men besides the two I already mentioned. You have yet to refute any of my points with reasonable arguments. All you’ve done is agree with my first point and make a nonsensical claim about the second point, saying that a man being able to protect his child from being murdered somehow gives him control over a woman’s body. It doesn’t. That argument has holes in it. She was in control of her body when she had sex. A man never forced her to get pregnant. She willingly took the risk. By your reasoning, any crime or illegal activity is acceptable as long as it affects the criminal’s body. Holding women accountable for their mistakes and not allowing them to murder innocents is not controlling their bodies.

    I’ve shown you my side, now show me yours. I would really like to see what inequalities women face that are worse than what I have shown you.

    • Well, it doesn't look like this user has any arguments against what I said. Let me just point out to anyone who reads this that this user said:

      "..the unborn child cannot survive without the host body of its mother- it's not a tradeable resource like money, it's her BODY. "

      This is the kind of hypocrisy reasoning I've come to expect from feminists. This person points out that a woman's body is not a tradeable resource like money, which makes it wrong to tamper with or have "control" over.

    • Yet at the same time she ignores the fact that what she would be aborting is also something that is not a tradeable resource like money. Another human entity has a body of their own as well. She reasons that it is wrong to tamper with a pregnant woman's "BODY", because it is her "BODY", yet she finds it acceptable to destroy the body of the person inside of the pregnant woman's body. Hypocrisy at it's finest.

  • The very word feminism itself is not appealing to men. I am not a woman. I'm not feminine. I'm a man. I'm masculine. That should be pretty obvious, for starters. Why would a man want to be seen as feminine? Would you like to be seen as manly?

    Feminism is strictly about women. Nowhere in it's premise does it state anything about the benefit of men. Feminism has always been about female privilege. It's not hard to recognize. When feminists want something they don't have, they say "look! men have (insert privilege here)!" "We don't have (insert privilege here)!" "That's not fair! We just want to be equal and have (insert privilege here), too!" That privilege can be education, high-paying jobs, voting etc. The only time feminists raise their voices is when they want something they don't have. (i.e more money or education).

    Let me give you a hypothetical scenario. Let us say that the average male lawyer makes $100,000 annually. Let us say that the average female lawyer of the same type makes $70,000 annually. Everyone knows that the feminists would scream "We deserve to earn $100,000 a year too!" "We're doing the same job and we want to be equal to men!" It seems fair, doesn't it?

    Now, I say to you, how many feminists would even consider the idea of having the man's salary lowered to $70,000 a year? If feminists truly cared about equality and not gaining privileges(which is what they claim), then none of them should have a problem with having the man's salary lowered because both the man and the woman would be earning the same amount of money for the same level of work.

    The bottom line here is, feminists only play the equality card when it suits them. How many feminists do you see rallying for women and men to be put in the same prisons? How many feminists say "Hey! We commited the same crimes as those men! We deserve to be put in the same prisons as them!" "We just want to be equal!" ?

    I'm not saying all women are like this, because the ones in my life certainly aren't. I'm strictly referring to feminists here.

    I'm not a feminist because I can see past their bullsh*t. I'm not a feminist because it does not benefit me in any way. It does absolutely nothing for me at all.

    And by the way, why can't you be "masculist"? Hmm? They care about men being treated equally. Don't you agree with that?

    • I suppose you could be a masculist if you truly want to, I'm just wondering what rights you would try to secure for men that they don't have? I'll take some of your points- some feminists are all about money, not really for me. In my own country, I think I'm treated pretty fairly (except for wages for some women), I'm more concerned about places where women DON'T have basic rights that men do. And as for lowering the salary, good idea, but what man will support that? None I know!

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    • I just showed you a substantial list of inequalites that men face today (I answered the question again). Women have been completely freed from their traditional gender roles while men have not. Most politicians have uncritically accepted the feminist analysis of gender relations, which has absolutely no benefit to men.

      Guys don't like feminism because they don't know when to stop. Equal rights were achieved in the 1930's. Feminism should have ended if it was only about equal rights.

    • Now that I've pointed out to you what you "didn't see", it's your turn. I'm calling you out. Show me inequalities that women face today. I certainly don't see much inequality for women -- at least not nearly as much inequality as men face today.

      The sad thing about this is that you didn't even think men were lacking rights or facing inequalities at all before I pointed out any of this to you. That is another huge reason why guys are strongly opposed to feminists.

  • I have absolutely no problem with feminism, and I DO support it. HOWEVER, in my experience, feminists take things to an extreme that just annoys me. From your question, you may be the first feminist I have not wanted to stab. The concept itself is perfectly fine, but most woman I have encountered that claim to want liberal feminism hold double standards. They want to retain the benefits they can receive through a male oriented culture, but none of the negatives. A poor example (but the first that comes to mind) would be that they expect a man to make the first phone call, to ask the girl out, and that sort of thing, and yet they want equality in all other aspects of the relationship and in general. This results not in equality, but in equality with extra burdens and expectation placed on men. A typical response to that is men should ask the girl out and be a gentleman, which then undermines everything they said about desiring perfect equality. The reason I tend to be so opposed to feminists is that in my experience, they self contradict, and are extremely self-righteous and conceited. I have no problem with feminism, but the feminist's and their unfair expectations leave sour expression on my face and angry thoughts clouding my mind. On the RARE occasion where I meet a feminist that truly listens to an argument, and does not have a mightier-than-thou attitude, I still usually encounter an unwillingness to accept that men are inherently better at certain things. You do not seem to be the kind of feminist that annoys me. I imagine that either the men you talk to either do not actually spend a large amount of thought process in their reactions, or that they are reacting to past experience with the most annoying kinds of feminists.

    These are my views, and I cannot guarantee that other males feel the same. Hope this helps!

    • There is a double-standard for men, I completely agree- especially with the whole dating thing. In time, I hope it will change because what should it matter who calls whom or asks whom out? I've asked guys out before and I have to say, I feel sorry for guys always having to ask- talk about nerve-wracking! But, I also hope in time the double-standard for women about sex will change, either you think badly of anyone who sleeps around or you don't- no matter the gender.

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    • True enough- men do get more pressure to not be virgins, but as a girl who waited until she was 20, I have to tell you, I got pressured/ridiculed by some of my girl friends for waiting so long. The message is kind of "Girls- don't sleep around, don't be promiscuous, that's disgusting, but don't be a prude and not sleep with anyone, and don't wait too long, that's not sexy"

    • You honestly want to compare your story to what I went through? I was made fun of on a daily basis in the hallways at school, laughed at, occasionally pushed around and even had my sexual orientation publicly called into question by my friends as a joke because I was a 15 year old virgin.

  • 7)Criminal Sentencing disparity. If both of us commit the exact same violation of the criminal code of Canada, I will get the longer sentence. I will get 20% more jail time, which is double the bias due to race. For example, if we both commit homicide, you’ll most likely get 8 years in prison with a possibility for parole, while I will most likely get the maximum of 10 years and no eligibility for parole.

    8)Rape Laws. There are so many things to list here. I’ll start with Rape Shield Laws for women. Four different bills were passed that amended the criminal code of Canada to give women an unfair advantage in sexual assault crimes. First, in 1991, came the R. v. Seaboyer ruling. Then, in 1992, came Bill C-49. Both R v. O’Connor and Bill C-46 came in 1995. And finally, in 2000, came the R v. Darrach ruling. This was the worst one of them all. The ruling says, “forcing the accuser to give evidence would invade her privacy and would ‘discourage the reporting of crimes of sexual violence’." In other words, my girlfriend can say that I raped her and get me put in jail for rape even though I didn’t rape her and there is no evidence that I raped her. There is a law that says her word trumps mine in sexual assault cases. And even if evidence appears which proves me innocent after I am incarcerated, the woman who accused me does not get punished. There is no law against or penalties for women who falsely accuse a man of rape. There are many similar laws in the United States, but I won’t mention them here, since we’re talking about our country. Also, Statutory Rape Laws. I guess you could file this under sentencing disparity, too. A man who commits statutory rape will be tried to the fullest extent of the law under the criminal code of Canada and registered as a sex offender. A man who files a case and submits to the courts that he was statutorily raped by a woman will rarely be taken seriously or even get his case put in front of a judge. Even if his case is taken to court, the woman will rarely get jail time. She will most likely get house arrest or similar and probably won’t be registered as a sex offender.

    9)Paternity Fraud. In child support cases, DNA testing is not always mandatory to prove the identity of the father. If the father can not afford a DNA test (which would prove him innocent), the accuser can sometimes be granted child support from an innocent man who is not the father. If DNA evidence is found later, then the father’s child support obligations are terminated. However, there is no penalty for the woman. She does not have to pay back the man. This problem isn’t very big in Canada, but there are a number of very serious cases of paternity fraud leading to the unjust treatment of men in the United States.

    10)Child custody. In divorces, women get sole custody of the children 80% of the time when both parents are attempting to gain sole custody.

  • You don’t see much inequality for men? You must be ignorant, or you just don’t care about men enough to acknowledge their plight. Maybe you stop thinking only about women for a few minutes, open your eyes and take a look around you. I’ll start with our country, since I brought it up.

    1)Harder physical entrance criteria for men in many occupations, such as the army, police and fire service. Requiring men to be physically stronger than women in these occupations leaves men responsible for a greater share of the physical work, for no more pay.

    2)In the military, women are banned from infantry, artillery and armour. Men are forced to do the most dangerous military jobs and if they refuse to be deployed or contest and extension to their tour of duty, they can be discharged. The disparity of male deaths vs female deaths in Afghanistan illustrates this inequality.

    3)Legal inequality and protections of paternal vs. maternal leave. Mothers get up to a year off of work and sometimes more, while fathers only get one to two months or nothing at all in some occupations.

    4)Higher insurance rates (and occasionally property tax) for men. As a young male driver, I am guaranteed to pay at nearly 2 times more for my car insurance than you and almost 3 times more for motorcycle insurance, even if we both got our licence at the same time and have the exact same driving history.

    5)Female-only scholarship programs and women’s studies departments in university. You are eligible for bursaries and scholarships simply because you are a woman. I don’t have access or even the right to apply for these scholarships. It doesn’t matter if I am in financial need or not. You have multiple departments dedicated to educating you about your gender in universities. There are no departments at any university in the country dedicated to educating me about my gender.

    6)Father’s rights vs Mother’s rights. After a woman has a baby, she has the right to give up that baby for adoption. If she exercises that right, she cuts off her own financial responsibility to the child, along with other parental rights and legal responsibilities. A man, by contrast, can not relinquish his financial responsibility and legal obligations for an unwanted child unless the mother shares his wish to give up the child for adoption. In other words, you don’t need a man’s permission to give your child up, but I need a woman’s permission to give my child up.

  • I attempt to be feminist as much as I can, and I do agree with you. A lot of people are feminists without even realizing it.

  • As far as I'm concerned every self proclaim feminist is a radical feminism. My reason for this, is that anyone who believe in the value of a human being, and should have equal rights would call themselves a humanist and stand with me against anyone who disagrees. Now why would you feel the need to separate yourself from all the other humanist and label yourself as feminist? The only reason are sexist feminist reasons.

  • Tbh it's mostly the tone for me. Maybe most feminists where I live are just radical, I don't know. But they basically can't seem to write anything without hurling insults at men. Hence the lack of appeal.

  • Feminism has been hijacked by the activists you speak of. It's done.
    If feminists want to stand for equality they should drop the dead wait they're lugging around leave the feminist movement and get on board with egalitarians.

  • the ones who are after true equality should find of different name for their movement, feminism has to much of a stigma behind it now

  • I think guys are more egalitarian. I think everyone should be equal and have the same rights and most kid my friends feel the same, but we don't say women equal to men, it's more people equal to people.

  • You're a feminist, so you believe that women still don't have equal rights as men? Please explain.

  • Don't tell me Feminism is "Equalism" -- that's a big joke. It's full of man-hating under the disguise of Equalism, so, there is no reason not to hate it.

  • Well you seem pretty cool, and a reasonable lady.

    Tell you what. Why don't you have a random poke around some feminist sites, and see if you can detect any anti-male sentiment?

    It might be hard at first, in the society we live in today, it's much easier to excuse anti-male sentiment as just jokes, much easier for many people to see misogyny than misandry.

    But have a look, with an eye to detecting slurs against men both subtle and obvious.

    I have seen so many examples of this on feminist sites that I've lost count.

    But here's one litmus test for you to see whether or not you can spot misandry.

    Do you think there's any misandry at all in Sandra Bullock's comedy The Heat?

    I'd really like to know your answer to that.

  • Because there isn't a single case in the feminist movement that targets men specifically and tries to fight for their equality.

    It would be fine if feminism meant equality, but it doesn't. Just because the dictionary says a word means something doesn't mean it doesn't change. Words change meaning over time.

    The OVERWHELMING cases of feminism has harmed men. Just because you go around saying "oh we care about mens rights too!" Means absolute dick until there is something done about them.

    So far? nothing.
    Thats why feminism is a bad word and should be stomped out and replaced with something else, like humanist or egalitarian.

    What kind of idiot is seriously going to say "oh well i am AGAINST women having rights!"
    And yet so many idiots on the other side THINK that's what they are doing when they are being anti feminist.

    They are being anti feminist because the word has been corrupted and abused and it was ALWAYS about women's rights and not mens.
    Its completely ONE SIDED. Always has been.

    Even if women are MORE persecuted than men, if feminism was about "equality" They would also pitch in now and again for mens rights instead of COMPLETELY IGNORING THEM!

    This is not about a battle of who is persecuted "MORE" if you are going to remain CONSISTENT in your claims about "equality" then live by that, and fight for mens rights too, instead of sitting on your hands and only complaining about birth control.

    And feminists typically ignore things like rapes happening overseas where feminism is REALLY needed.
    Their priorities SUCK. And ignore men, and shit all over the definition of feminism.

    Im sorry. Its a fallacy called "the no true scottsman fallacy" To say "well not ALL feminists are like that"
    Im sorry. YES THEY ARE.

    Im sure you would say that ALL KKK members are racist. Oh well what about the KKK members that say they are KKK members and claim to love black people!!! what about them?

    This is a good comparison, regardless of what you say. Because "feminism" was about equal rights for women in the past, and now its more about rights for women and ignoring rights for men.

    The fact is, women have been and ARE getting preferential treatment in specific areas.
    And group rights TRAMPLE over individual rights.

    For example: if you open a "whites only" night at a bar you are singling out everyone else. You are giving them group rights, and tarnishing individual rights.

  • I honestly don't give a damn what someone is- guy,girl, black, white, french, italian, ranch; whatever. People are people, some just have boobs. : /


What Girls Said 2

  • I know you wanted a guy's opinion, but I think I have a guy who is opposed to feminism stand point.

    Radical feminism annoys the sh*t out of me. It's great to be gung-ho about standing up for what you think is right and fair, but plenty of people, both men and women, are denied rights and are discriminated against in all areas of life, not just females. Liberal feminism is a great mindset to have- to want to be equal, but by labeling one's self as that is in a way making themselves separate, in my opinion.

    In this day and age, yes, there are discrepancies between the sexes, however, it's not just against females. Sure, we get paid not too significantly less, but hey, our health and car insurance rates are often at times lower than that of males. Is anything really equal these days?

    A woman should be free to do whatever she wants. I think if a woman wants to, her place can be in the kitchen, as long as her partner is supporting her and is putting in his part. I think if a woman wants to become a top executive of a company, that's great too!

    This may be off topic, but once I was discussing equality between the sexes with one of my exes. He said everything should be equal between males and females. He said if a woman hits a man, he should be able to hit her back. I said that was not a right to hit someone, that's just called domestic violence. Some people have what equality is mixed up, lol.

    • Well said- to me feminism means I have the power to choose whatever path suits me, be it wife and mother or CEO or both. Equality is truly impossible because we have different abilities, but equal rights and respect isn't- that's what I want.

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    • Men should have that right and I hate it when women think they can get away with hitting someone because it's socially unacceptable to hit back.

    • Why are you so desperate to hold on to a word like "feminism" when even the word is female centric?
      You do realize that the "radical feminists" are the ones with the biggest voices, the ones the media focuses on, and also get things done?
      "The wheel that squeaks the loudest is the one that gets the grease."
      Josh Billings

      So you are involuntarily aligning yourself with radical feminism because when you say that you are a feminist you are going to be linked to them and their behavior. Regardless of how you think feminism is about equality. Which it never was. It was always about equality for women, and not equality for men.

  • I think guys are opposed to feminism nowadays because feminists took it too far. Hey, I'm all for equality, but if we as women are going to be allowed to work, then that means men should be able to stay home and raise the kids. I think it's unfair that a woman can either get a career or stay at home and not get scrutinized for it, while at the same time men are ridiculed for being stay at home dads. Too many women these days want a man who has a high paying job. The truth is, the more women there are that work, the fewer men there will be with high paying jobs.