Good assessment dude!
Then we see woman are rather dominant than submissive. No woman force you to be submissive in a marriage. Stop blaming the woman and man up
@kim45456 There's more to it than women being the dominant sex. You seem to understand hypergamy right? The female dual-mating strategy. "Alpha" vs "beta" behaviour. Women are naturally more attracted to "alphas", but they settle for "betas" if they can't get an "alpha" to commit to them. The reason it's so hard to get an "alpha" to commit is because he has a lot of options, tends to be a player, and because he has so many options and the confidence/ability to attract women he has higher standards. The reason "betas" put up with all of this kind of shit is because they have few if any other options so they cling on to any woman who is willing to be with them.The majority of men are "beta". They're taught to be "beta". Women also tend to encourage "beta" behaviour in men whether they understand that that's what they're doing or not, because that gives women more power over them. That's why all we see especially in Western culture is men being encouraged more and more to act like women and to be submissive. In fact more recently more and more women seem to want to encourage men to view women as the dominant sex, which is kind of what you do. That's the reason. It's all about power games.
You can't fight against your nature. If you are dominant, you are dominant. If women are naturally submissive, then they will be submissive. You can't just become dominant and take power over someone. That is like choosing your sexuality like one day you are straigth the other you choose to be gay. If majority of men are "betas", then men in general more likely to be submissive. Dont see any problem here
@kim45456 It's not only to do with nature but also to do with upbringing, worldview etc. Those things affect the way you turn out as an adult and have little to do with your nature - that's nurture. But those things can also be changed e. g. someone who usually lacks assertiveness can learn to become more assertive. Someone who lacks confidence can learn to become more confident. Someone who is indecisive can learn to become more decisive etc.My point is that for many of these guys it's really the way they've been taught and the way they've been raised that makes them this way.The reason I see it as a problem is because those kinds of relationships and marriages are bad for both. Dominance is linked with testosterone, it's a masculine trait. Women are most attracted to masculine men. But in our culture there are people who want to flip everything upside down. If anything that goes against our nature. In those relationships the woman is more masculine, the man is more feminine. That's backwards, and that's why it doesn't work, even if it sounds good to both of them at the beginning. The woman grows to resent the man because he's a bitch, and the man resents the woman because she treats him like a bitch.
What do you define as dominant men? Like controlling, wanna be macho man? I personally would like then a "beta" man who cares for me, is always there for me, clingy and give a lot of attention. Oh my, beta men are literally dream men hahs. I dont want someone who tells me what I should do. And you should not degrade men who like to be submissive and women for being dominant. I actuslly believe in equal roles. Nobody should lead someone. You are with your partner cause you love her/him and not for treating your partner like a slave. You should respect your partner. I also dont think it is ok for women to controll men except he likes to be submissive.
@kim45456 I think that there's a big difference between being dominant and domineering. What you're describing when you talk about a man who is overbearing, controlling, who treats a woman like a slave etc. is a man who is domineering. Domineering people are selfish people who make decisions solely based on self-interest. To me dominant is really to take the lead, but from a good place, not in a selfish disrespectful way. When I speak of masculine dominance it's more in a protective way I guess.Most women if you ask them will say that they want a man to take the lead. Sure, many younger girls today will say the things you're saying now as in you want a beta guy who is emotional, clingy etc. I can't tell whether they're/you're lying or whether that's an idea that sounds good in your head, but either way it's not true. Either it sounds good in your head at the time or you say it because you've been taught to say it. Clingy is not an attractive trait to most women at all. This is what I mean by women encouraging men to be beta. It's also kind of a contradiction because in your first response you said that no woman forces a man to be submissive, not to blame women and to "man up". What do you mean by "man up"? You mean that if a man is submissive he isn't masculine. 100% true. I find it funny that women tell guys not to talk negatively about guys who act submissive, when in real life it's those guys who women show the least amount of respect to.
What do you mean women would want to let the man take the lead? I still dont understand why someone would prefere who would lead you aka controll you? I personally prefer clingy woman/man. I wouod like someone who a lot attention to me. Who would not want that? I can't speak for majority of women but have heard that both men and women dont like a clingy person.
And how is clingy not attractive? Many women complain about not getting enough attention by her partner and some of them even cheat on their partner because of it
How do you actually define a man who leads? I think nobody should lead in a relationship. It sounds toxic to me
@kim45456 There's a difference between leading and controlling. Controlling is when someone makes selfish decisions and selfish demands with zero willingness to compromise. That's when it's toxic. Leading is when someone is more likely to make a decision, and that can be done without being selfish and while being willing to compromise.Clingy just isn't an attractive trait to anybody. Of course you want attention, but clingy is when somebody completely smothers you with it. It's a red flag, a sign of insecurity. In fact clinginess is often what leads to controlling behaviour further down the line. Most people who become victims of abuse say that their partner was clingy at first while seeming really nice, so they just thought that they were keen. The further down the line the clinginess turned to abuse. Even if it didn't, if you ever actually dealt with a clingy person you'd understand why people don't want that. Maybe that's just your naivety."I think nobody should lead in a relationship. It sounds toxic to me"A couple of comments above you said this:"If majority of men are "betas", then men in general more likely to be submissive. Dont see any problem here"You only see it as a problem if a man is leading, and you're only saying this now to not sound like a hypocrite.
I personally think that nobody should lead. It is my personal opinion but if there are men who are submissive or "beta", and like it to be submissive, i dont see any problem here. And this apply to women. If a woman wants to submissive, she should then. Again i personally would not prefere someone who wants to lead
OMG so disturbing. My testosterone just left my body lol
@Wowgirl30q A lot of things certainly are! 😆
They compared with non married people though
@cavmanier of the same age?
I don't see the set up perimeters (I think they call it “methods”) of the study online. Maybe you can find it. I'm pretty sure they adjusted for age though because it's well known testosterone tends to drop with age.news.harvard.edu/.../I think this study has been done a few times at least. There's one from 2017 also but didn't show set up either. Sometimes you have to pay if you want to see all the details.
But yeah evolutionary wise it makes sense that long-term relationships would lower a guy's testosterone or sex drive.
@cavmanier yep, seems like an adaptation to monogamous life.
Yeah but even then people are often not faithful 😂
@cavmanier yes... don't see what's the point of that?
You said "adaptation to monogamous life" and I said "but even then people are often not faithful." I'm not sure how you don't see the relation?
Because it's so minor that it doesn't make much of a difference.And people don't only cheat because of high testosterone. If it was so, women would never cheat.
My point was when you said “seems [the lower testosterone] like an adaptation to monogamous life,” that if that’s truly an adaption, that it didn't do a great job.Spreading that way of thinking to women cheating sounds pretty bad because women have about 20 times lower testosterone at least and it's not like they have 20 times lower sex drive than men. That whole way of thinking it's just not somewhere I would start. I wouldn't even try to make that make sense. I don't even know if lower testosterone for me has anything to do with nature trying to keep couples together but it was an interesting idea. It's really silly to think we know this when the top experts don't even know it. It's more of a fun thing to think about.
@cavmanier but I never said it seems like a good adaptation tho.
Comparing with women was actually pretty good because it showed my point exactly, which is that testosterone isn't only to blame for cheating. Which is also why decrease in testosterone levels won't do much for cheating, maybe it'll do something minor.
You never said it wasn't good. You think I can read your mind I guess. "Comparing with women was actually pretty good because it showed my point exactly"I guess.. but that's what I said before you.. You said it after me.. It doesn't matter though."Which is also why decrease in testosterone levels won't do much for cheating"You have no reason to know that. You are just guessing.
Here goes the original idea we had confirmed. It seemed so obvious."The men in relationships who would not consider cheating, however, showed low testosterone compared with the relationship-bound men who would.The results suggest that testosterone levels change in response to social conditions, and that the hormone helps men meet the perceived challenges of their environment, Gangestad says. While elevated testosterone levels help men find mates, lower levels may promote affiliative and nurturing behavior, he notes. In fact, lower levels of the androgen are associated with increased responsiveness to infant cries, past research shows."Testosterone facilitates competition with other men for partners... but it may interfere with other kinds of tasks, such as parenting," Gangestad notes."https://www.apa.org/monitor/dec06/testosteroneWe don't know the exact likelihood. Either way, it's supposed to help but in reality guys still tend to do a bad job. I think we are done.
"You never said it wasn't good. You think I can read your mind I guess." Read minds? No. Assume? Of course, bwcause that's exactly what you did. You straight up assumed I meant good. Same way you could've assumed I meant not good.Also, why are you explaining me things I said myself?My point was: lower testosterone levels could be an adaptation to that sort of lifestyle. But testosterone isn't the only thing to blame for cheating, it's pretty pointless to point out that people still cheat. It's like I say: today is Thursday, and you say: yeah, but tomorrow is Friday.
You have to be a troll. I've never seen you before so I just didn't know.
@cavmanier sure that's what it is. I'm a troll.
@coachTanthony thanks for MHO. 😊
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I can see those points!
Indeed. Better to live in the waterless, no shade, and super hot desert than with her. LOL Proverbs 21:19:Better to dwell in the wilderness,Than with a contentious and angry woman.
My bad. Wrong location.
Meant to post it on mine.
And female nature is hypergamy. So every woman want the best man, and if they marry someone who is not good enough, that should affect the woman too
He said it
There isn't many men that don't dabble in porn or masturbation.
And that is why they are on viagra and other male enhancement stuff because they fooled around and grow bitter in their marriages.
That's why the numbers are so high. And why so many women now are checking elsewhere, leading to more problems, marital dissatisfaction and women and men cheating or getting into open relationships. Major correlation with that.
I don't necessarily disagree.
It has little to do with that because they were compared with single men. Many of those single men also are not virgins and do all of the things you mentioned, perhaps even more than the married men. If those things caused low testosterone the result would be the complete opposite.
@englisc Do you actually think they want to tell you that? There are other support forums for men who are struggling with porn and its a very big deal. Remember that these men were single at some point and most of them who again got into porn or were exposed to sexually explicit material early get to have these problems no different than a girl who is obsessed with romance movies and erotica books.
Also, remember that plenty of those single men are screwing around with other women. So of course once they get married they feel confined when they desire to be with other women. That's why some men and even a few pastors warn women if you come across a man who watches porn, RUN. Because you won't be happy with that kind of man.
I know that, but my point is that, even though I agree that some of those things are bad, those things don't create low testosterone. This is something I've studied for a long time, being heavily into health and fitness. You seem to tie absolutely everything in with this stuff in every single answer you give, but it's not the answer to everything.
@englisc You would be quite surprised how much it is tied to everything but people often ignore the problem because they don't want to give up on something they're obsessed with. You may be into health and such as I am. But personal experience has less to do with health and more to do with individuals and the way that person feels. Yes, there can be other factors, however. Until we remove those variables, oftentimes those are the cases besides, again, nutrition and genetics.
Since we are talking about marriage, marriage is heavily dependant on sex 99.9%. What these guys do BEFORE they marry, they take it with them AFTER they marry. It just may take months or a few years for these guys to start feeling the effects a changes that the marriage environment does to him. Since our culture pretty much shames marriage and approves lawlessness and hypersexuality, a lot of these guys are confused and feel emasculated. I can say that because that's how my father felt growing up and he had over 40 women including my mother and my sister's mom. He still masturbates, and he doesn't feel that great ever since my mom died. He learned that mess from his doctor at 14, and that's how he went crazy with women. Now he's older he regrets it but still does it even though he knows now its a sin because again, he doesn't want to touch these women. Marriage have an amazing effect on people, good and bad, depending on the health of their marriage. If their marriage is poor both he and his wife would feel it.
If you ever heard of Mark Gungor, he is a marriage speaker and author who have spoken to secular, religious, Christian, army and international couples for YEARS. And one thing he always found to be any issues with the men, is that they are so obsessed with the pornography that their wives are upset, bitter and angry, withhold sex, and then these men's sexual performance plummets. And most of their early sexual experiences have been with porn and fooling around with a girl or woman before marriage and they try to recreate that with each time they have sex and with each woman they have sex with. And it makes them miserable. Worse when they can't recreate those first experiences and they feel less and undesirable. Its a big problem to the point they're ashamed to tell their wives. And then the women feel they have to fix themselves and now their miserable and the marriage goes south from there. I know. That was my late mom's biggest fear and sexual horrors with my father. And now my close friend had the same issue with her ex-husband. He was so obsessed, she felt undesirable and the marriage, you guess it, failed.
Where these wives FAIL at is their assumption that marriage will make these kinds of guys BETTER MEN, and their wrong. They're very much wrong, and they learn the hard and tragic way as their marriage goes down the drain.
I think you deep down find me adorable.
Oh, I sure do Coach :)
Ha damn straight!
I love the breed
That would do it!
There are so many.. just google it.