
Do you believe the universe is fundamentally deterministic or probabilistic?


- It's deterministic, but it's designed to simulatenously allow Free Will.
Determinism has been tested at the Cosmic Scale and none of the known laws of physics have ever been violated in the entire history of the Universe. Also, the "Known unknowns" such as Dark Energy, Dark Matter, and Dark Flow have never been violated.
Probabilisitic models are still based in Determinism. For example, just because you don't know the state of a radioactive atom does not mean that atom's decay isn't deterministic. If you know all initial conditions of the system, you can predict exactly when a single atom of Uranium will decay.
Free Moral Agency definitely exists, and it can situationally coincide to do things Determinism alone cannot do. So when we pass away, we are guilty of our own sins, and it is not God's fault, and when we do good it can either be our own good works, or it can be God working in us. And contrary to Christian doctrine, the Law and Prophets says you are saved by your Good Works, and you are damned by your own evil works. And God said in Deuteronomy to choose between life and death, and he gave a hint, "Therefore choose LIFE." Metaphysical and Spiritual are not quite accurate terms to describe Free Moral Agency. Evidently the "Soul" can arise as a physical construction, and Determinism can give rise to Free Moral Agency through a concept called "Emergence" in which a system has properties none of its components possess.0|10|1Is this still revelant?So while the individual components of the Brain are deterministic, the Brain itself is a Free Moral Agent.
Moreover, General Relativity makes the initial assumption that space-time is continuous, but ends up proving space-time is not a vector space, and therefore NOT continuous. Space-time is actually made up of Tensors and Energy particles which permeate all of reality, and they exist in a "quantum foam".
I've actually studied this a bit and drew the wrong conclusion at first. The Emergence of non-continuous surfaces in Relativity is a predictor of Quantum Theory*, and is not a contradiction (as I used to think).
It may one day be possible to fully describe Quantum Mechanics within the confines of a "better version of General Relativity" if anyone smart enough to write that is ever born and educated enough in the field.The Atheist Stephen Hawking believed everything was deterministic, but he said we should still punish crime because Good is better than Evil. And so he ultimately believed in an OBJECTIVE standard of Truth and Morality.
Whereas most people on this forum believe in SUBJECTIVE truth and morality, and so they believe "do whatever you feel like doing", which is actualy evil. The Creation story in the Bible is a rebuttal to the false doctrine of Subjective Truth and Subjective Morality. The lie the Serpent tells Eve is "if you eat this fruit, you'll be able to make your own definition of good and evil".
So in the story, Eve disobeys God and becomes Evil, and then tricks Adam into disobeying God, and they both become Evil... and they both think they can substitute their own definition of good and evil for God's commandments, which is the same lie everyone else has been telling themselves ever since the first sinner was born.
Hawking was wrong, Free Will does exist, but he was correct, Absolute Truth and Absolute Morality do exist.
Educated Atheists and Agnostics do not deny Objective Truth nor Objective Moraltiy, to do so is total insanity.- Show All Show Less
I actually wrote and self-published a Scientiific Paper on this topic, and sent copies of it to congress and the Supreme Court. "Missing Dark Matter and Emergent Vector Space Violation" by Wade D. Smith.
It is self-Published on Amazon and I think I only charge a dollar or something for it, just enough to pay fees to self publish.Under the right circumstances, it's possible for an observer in RElativity to see a completely different "event" than another observer in a different reference frame would see. I called this property, "emergent Vector Space Violation", but technically it doesn't contradict any law of physics or logic I'm aware of. It starts with a Vector Space, bu tthe Vector Space "violates" itself through the property of "Emergence" and gives rise to the Quantum Foam at the Photonic scale anyway. I need to write another paper correcting what I got wrong back then.
In the other half of the Scientific Paper, I proved there is no Dark Matter in the Milky Way Galaxy, otherwise the Orbits of our Planets in the Solar System would not be stable and the orbits of Globular Clusters above the galacitc Disk would not be stable. We know the mass of the Milky Way due to another paper published a year bfore I published mine, and the real mass of the Milky Way, regardless of what Dark Matter theoriests say, the real mass is only about 215 Billion Suns, but the Encyclopedias say the Milky Way is about a Trillion Suns, because they incorrectly assume 80% of the mass is "Dark Matter" but this makes no sense, if there was that much Dark Matter, the planets in the solar system would all catastrphically decay in their orbits in a very short time period, and definitely would not be stable of time periods of 5 Billion or more years..
The fact LIGO has never detected a "Bow Wake" from Jupiter proves there is no Dark Matter in the Solar System, because Jupiter would produce a Gravitational Bow Wake if it passed through a cloud of Dark Matter, and the other planets would get ejected from the Solar System if that happened anyway.
Another thing, Stars at the center of Galaxies are experiencing Relativiistic Time Dilation, because they move much faster than stars near the edge of galaxies. But they appear to be moving the same speed, because Time Dilation causes people outside the reference frame co-moving with those stars to see them as moving more slowly than they actually move.
This means the stars direclty orbiting the Super-Massive black hole near the center of our Galaxy are actually movign close to light speed, but they appear to be "barely moving" because both Gravitational Time Dilation and other forms of Time Dilation are so great in that region.
This explains Chandra Rubin's Stelar Orbital Curve without the need for Dark Matter.The TRUTH the Serpent told Eve was this (actual quote from the Bible): ""You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
paraphrased: "You will know what God knows", because all "God" is, is "Knowledge Incarnate", and when Eve and Adam cast aside the blindness of superstition, they are on the road to increasing knowledge. So they were "cast out of the Garden" (a. k. a The Garden of Blissful Ignorance) and had to face the streets and the school of hard knocks.
Furthermore, the LIAR in the story was GOD, who told Eve, (another direct Bible quote) "“but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” (she ate it, and surprise, she kept living. Bad God, stop lying!)@zeitgeist057 She became a sinner and died spiritually. God did not lie. You need to study some basic theology. She and Adam suffered "Spiritual Death" when they disobeyed God, and became lost sinners, which is explained in basic Pauline doctrine in the New Testament.
Not that I believe this story actualy happened, but symbolically something very much like this "must have happened" to explain all the sin among mankind in the world.Think maybe you need to study some basic logic. A lie is when someone says something that is not true. If someone tells you “If you eat this apple, you will die in the same day. “, Then you eat the apple and you don’t die in the same day, that person has lied to you. Maybe you’ve got some kind of theological study that proves that if God says something then it Hass to be true even if it’s a lie, and I won’t argue with that because that’s illogical. It’s pretty simple cut and dry case. Yes or no, black or white, alive or dead. Alive? Yes. God. Is. A. Liar. Only logical argument would be God doesn’t exist so, he’s not a liar. You can’t be a liar if you don’t exist. But in the fairytale Bible story that creationists pretend is fact, God does tell Eve a lie. Doesn’t matter if she’s a sinner. I do get the fun concept of being able to twist anything and everything in the Bible into a metaphor so nothing means anything while simultaneously meaning anything your imagination can dream up. It’s one of the basic illogical principles that allows religion to pretend to have validity. But it’s a fantasy.
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- The universe, is a part of the multiverse, the macroverse, the microverse, the Omniverse, and a near infinate amount of cosmological and inverse verses you or I could ever imagine.
I'm not going too go as far as too say that it is all beyond the possibility for an advanced intellect too hypothesize on, but the human species is not that far along in it's intellectual development too go there yet. Needless too say, there is no one aspect too any of it, and everytime someone thinks they have it all figured out, something new and unexpected will come along and throw the whole concept into disaray. Like the law of conservation of matter and energy, which was drumbed into our heads as incontrovertible law, not too be questioned or challenged.
I live for a good challenge and have questioned everything in life, save for one thing. My Mother's love for me.
The universe didn't disappoint. The law I was told not too question was exposed for the nonsense that it is, and my Mother's love has never been invalidated. I was right on both counts 🤣😂🤪.
That's what happens when science becomes religion. People de-evolve into mindless simpletons. Don't ever stop questioning and learning, because the two are symbiotic too personal growth and development.0|10|0Is this still revelant?energy cannot be Created or Destoryed except by the True Creator (The First Cause).
This has never been violated in the entire history of the Universe, and has been tested to one part in 100 Trillion and found to be true for the entire Universe.
Even "White Hole" does not create new matter or energy. It simply changes matter or energy from one existing state to another state.
If Energy and matter was not conserved, most of the technology humans have ever discovered would not be possible.
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014- According to Einstein it is deterministic. Of course we know that Relativity is not quite right, but we don't have any replacement theory.
But if Einstein is right or at least mostly right, time and space are woven together in a kind of fabric. And if that is true, then the past and future are basically illusions.
By Einstein, we expect this issue of simultaneity to exist. Whereby our distant future has already happened from the point of view of some distant planet in a galaxy someplace else in the universe.0|20|0 - A mix of both. There being laws of physics already means that certain things are bound to happen in a specific way, but quantum mechanics is purely (as far as we know) random and it has incremental influence on everything.
Basically, the universe is like a ball of snow rolling down a hill - it is guaranteed to roll, but the way, speed, direction and etc are going to fluctuate.0|10|0 - Like Einstein, I believe that everything about the universe is inherently deterministic.
I think that even if we find things which will seem non-deterministic to us, it will simply be our failure to understand the determinism behind them.
The universe operating on a non-deterministic basis in any way just seems really counterproductive to me, I think probability is simply non-existent.0|10|0 - I don't believe it's either. Determinism implies a complete inability on the part of conscious agents to make choices that are not the easiest and most obvious ones to make (which is clearly not the case), whilst the view that events are probabilistic ignores the rather clear fact that events are, at rock bottom, unpredictable even when one has as much data as it is possible to have regarding whatever it is that one is trying to predict.0|10|0
- If you'd asked 6 months ago, I would have said probabilistic. But very recent experiments on quantum states have cast serious doubt on that. It now looks like everything is deterministic. Which is depressing.0|20|0
@goaded www.wired.com/.../
www.quantamagazine.org/.../
www.newscientist.com/.../
www.discovermagazine.com/.../scientists-catch-a-quantum-jump-as-it-happens
There's 4. They are all talking about the same experiment. Find any you like that talk about the underlying implications, that the quantum leap is triggered by unseen/unknown effects (and hence deterministic) and not just stochastic variations in the local field. I found the PBS Physics channel on Youtube useful.- Show All Show Less
@Belgie Here's the paper: qulab.eng.yale.edu/.../zlatko_paper.pdf
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. A single paper means very little until confirmed through further experiments and accepted by the rest of the scientific community.
- I think personally, while there are many things we know, there is so much more that we don't know about the universe yet0|10|0
- I think it is fundamentally probabilistic at least on a quantum level, but string theory suggests otherwise. Physics is starting to get damn near theological.0|10|0
- Anonymous1 moIt's fundamentally probabilistic, but statistical mechanics means that macroscopically it behaves deterministically.0|00|0
- probabilistic, mainly. Though even chaos has an “apparent” pattern.0|20|0
- It's sequence of randomness with some weird ass kind of order.0|10|0
No it's not. If it was there would be no force of gravity, and galaxies wouldn't exist, or even if they did exist they'd just move in random directions for no obvious reason.
Stop talking about stuff you clearly don't understand.Like you can speramnently change the spin o fatoms and even individual electrons in Race Track Memory and Spintronic Processors and MRAM, which are too new and expensive technology fr the market just yet, but this technology has existed for about 10 years now, and researched for the past 20 years. Spintronic Memory is non-volatile, and spintronic processors use about 1000 times less energy than traditional electronic processors, but they are absurdly hard to scale up to as many transistors as exist on an electronci computer, same goes for Quantum Computers, it's very difficult to scale them up to make a general purpose computer with Qubits.
If your view of QM/QFT were true, it would be impossible to make a Quantum Computer or a Spintronic Computer... but they've already existed for 20 years for specialized problem solving and experimentation.By the way, "Probabilitistic" is not "Random", there are only certain states Quantum phenomena can be in, and they are 100% PREDICTABLE, if you know enough about the iniitial conditions of the system.
How do I know? Because scientists can do super-positon experiments where two or more states or two or more particles are "entangled" and the particles can be in two or more states simultaneously through superposition, and they can measure every state the particle has and when the states change, and this allows simple Quantum Computers to be made, and also allows "Time Reversed Quantum Entanglement" experiments to be done, which has been verified in a laboratory and may even allow "Time Reversed Communication" for verifying future disasters or verifying future discoveries about the Laws of Physics. You can only verify something you already know is true though, you can't verify something you think might be false.
Anyway, Time Reversed Entanglement has already been verified in the laboratory, proving Determinism is true, not "Randomness".
However, Determnism does not necessarily exclude "Free Will", as Free Will could be a property of Reality created by God to over-rule determinism, or it could be an "Emergent" property of physics, and not required to be a "law" of physics.
Which is why I say the individual components of the brain are deterministic, but the brain itself is not deterministic.- Show All Show Less
How could it be random? The laws have been tested and they haven't changed since the beginning of time.
- I don't "believe" either because it isn't known.0|10|0
Alright, let's change the wording. Based on your perspective, which one do you think would be more likely? Or which one do you gravitate more towards?
I have no means of measuring one against the other. I mean when we look at our sciences, we have relatively theory which appears to be deterministic and then we have QFT which appears to be probabilistic and we have no sound, accepted unifying theory. So what I think is totally irrelevant when even the absolute best minds haven't been able to reach an answer let alone agree on one.
- Show All Show Less
Stuff like that can be so overwhelming to think about sometimes yet so comforting since I don't &/or likely won't know the exact answer. There's a weird beauty in the confusion. 🤔
It's curiosity. It's a sign of an active mind. To question and wonder rather than to be content with mystery.
The scale of atoms and larger objects is deterministic, therefore the small things that create atoms must be deterministic.
There is no "randomness" in the Universe, randomness nly appears to exist due to ignrance, that is less than complete knowledge about a system. If you add more particles to a system, then the amount of randomness actually decreases, proving that randomness is an illusion caused by partial knowledge.
Example, you cannot predict the state of a single electron orbiting in a Hydrogen atom's electron cloud, but you CAN predict the state of two electrons orbiting in a Helium atom's electron cloud, because they oppose one another and push one another as far asway as possible.
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