RESPONSE TO UPDATE: Thanks for the credit!
Lol we got the largest economy of any state, i think we'll do just fine.
@cipher42 Actually you have the 4th.Your economy without the US support would likely drop to 3rd world, possible 4th world standards within the first 48 hours of leaving the republic, and after time would recover to be at best the 19th overall. You would be fine, eventually, but likely end up joining as part of Canada. But no one cares. Leave.
Well at least California isn’t west Virgina, or some other rual poor state, Cali will do better than most American states if you’re saying it placed 4th! Out of 50!
By GDP (the standard measure of economic size) we have by far the largest. You're referencing a study that looked at various factors combined, like economic growth and "business environment", not pure size of economy.
@cipher42 Texas is the only state in the union that self reliant. Sorry
@cipher42 Actually California has the fifth largest economy (it was the fourth largest when it was a republican state) and its also got the highest rates of poverty per capita and largets wealth disparity of any state. Currently they are unable to maintain basic infrastructure hence all the fecal matter on the streets and a disturbing resurgence of diseases that have not affected modern society in over a century. Further more its losing businesses the only exception to this being the tech sector as they where established their (and its only a matter of time before they leave as well as the only reason they started in silicon valley, as its known, is because the land was cheap their, now taxes are so absurdly high that no start up has any real reason to be their as land is far cheaper elsewhere in the US). What took a company I believe it was ten years to build in California took only a year to build and get up and running in Arizona (I believe it was a recycling plant). In short you claim its going to do just fine but your forgetting that the primary wealth it receives is from tech giants and Hollywood and that's it. I mean their is farming but thanks to LA voting for water to be redistributed to them and for them to be prioritized many of the farming regions experienced wide spread droughts because again, poor policies and elitism. So you are the poorest state (due to taxes and living expenses) with the highest wealth disparity that is currently losing business after business to places like Arizona and texas, with diseases, like the bubonic plague, showing up in your cities when these things where pretty much unheard of once we had modern sanitation (so for the past 150 years or so) as well as huge crime issues and homeless issues (not to mention rampant corruption issues).
@cipher42 So while I agree that you guys should absolutely secede from the Union, I am going to have to say the data shows the exact opposite outcome of what you suggest (plus the whole bankruptcy thing (118.7 billion dollars in debt, 785.72 billion in unfunded retirement benefits and liabilities, the many different California cities that have become insolvent and bankrupt, its huge dependendence on Federal money (they get 99 cents per dollar given to the government so nearly an even exchange so the federal government is not going to lose out that much in taxes compared to California etc.).
@hellionthesagereborn read you can do that right? "mic drop"https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Texas
@cipher42 never mind I've been reading up to date info and you are right california can be on their own. But seceeding is never an option.
@hellionthesagereborn I literally *just* addressed this. California has by far the largest economy by GDP, which is the standard measure of economy size. When California is ranked 4th or 5th economically, that's usually by measures that aren't just GDP. It's a fair argument that how BIG an economy is doesn't necessarily correlate to how GOOD it is, but that's not what I'm talking about here. I'm just saying that California has the BIGGEST economy by the standard measure, and no matter how much you don't want that to be true, it is.
largest economy among US states that is, which is what I'm talking about, as I said in my first comment.
@cipher42 You do realize that about ten years or so ago four hospitals went bankrupt in California due to illegals overflooding your state. Four hospitals which is a lot. Then there's over 27,000 people currently living in tents in Los Angeles alone. And over 1000-5000 living in cars in parking lots that the city is footing the bill for. So don't sit there and tell me California is all great when it's a hellhole. At one time I thought of moving there but from everything I been seeing all the horror stories about how much homelessness there is out there I rather not. Plus the amount of stupid laws you have in California. You realize that if a waiter or waitress gives a customer a straw that waiter or waitress will spend 6 months in jail and pay over a $1000 fine. Granted California is trying to reduce the plastic problem but those morons are going about it all the wrong way. Personally I don't like drinking out of public glasses in restaurants I find it skeevy and disgusting regardless if they been through a dishwasher because you never know who drank out of it last. And I'm not sure if you're aware of this but certain parts of inner cities in southern california have been quarentined off due to feces smell. Homeless people taking a dump in certain parts of the inner cities back alleys making entire areas smell so bad and toxic cities have to block those areas off. I for one wouldn't miss California if it seceded the union
@Rob171977 Can you cite your sources? The only thing I can find info on is the drinking straw law- which isn't actually the way you claim it is (making me doubt your other claims). First, the $1000 fine is Santa Barbara specific, not a California thing. The California law prevents FULL SERVICE (not fast food/food stand/cafe) places from providing PLASTIC (paper or other is okay) straws UNLESS REQUESTED, and the fines for non-compliance are up to $25 per day and $300 annually.
@cipher42 its called getting off your ass and do a google or yahoo or bing or duck duck go search. you're a big girl who's old enough to use the computer and browse the internet obviously so i'm gonna tell you exactly what I tell pc nerd gamers or whackjob conspiracy nut cases GET OFF YOUR ASS AND GO FIND THE SOURCES YOURSELF
@Rob171977 You make the claim, you provide the proof. You're a big boy, surely you've at least graduated high school. When you wrote essays, did you just not cite things and tell the teacher to get off their ass and do the research themself? I hope the fuck not.Anyways, I did actually try to find wtf you're talking about, which is why I was able to tell you how bullshit your claim about the straw ban was. The fact that I couldn't find any info on the other claims you made makes me think that they're just as bullshit as the straw one. Prove me wrong?
@cipher42 and the fact that you're on here talking like either a conspiracy whackjob or a pc fucking nerd gamer makes me think you're really a fucking guy hiding behind a fake fucking screen name pretending to be a woman SO FUCK OFF
@cipher42 Quit being so fucking uptight and so full of yourself and get off your ass and spend more than 5 or 10 minutes and do some actual fucking research. Don't expect people to spoon feed you information all the time. this is the REAL WORLD not some bullshit high school crap that you refer to. Get over yourself be a big girl like i said put your big girl panties on and do some actual research for quite a while instead of whine bitch and complain unless you really are a guy like i figure you are in my previous reply to you and if you are then FUCK OFF
No, California has by far the largest economy of any of the fifty states. If California were an independent country it would have the 7th largest economy in the world.
@Rob171977 Okay, seems that you don't actually have any research backing you up, so you think insulting people will cover that up. Really though, did you graduate high school? If so, how? Certainly not by insulting your teachers when they asked you to cite your sources...
@MajesticTwelve dayum girl you always controversial
@IMainHanzo I guess that's the danger of saying what you think, not what's popular.
@Majestic twelve more power to you 👏👏
@COMMODOREII I have no idea what your referring to?
@Rob171977 Hospitals are closing all over the US, particularly in rural areas.
@Rob171977 Homeless people collect in the Pacific coastal cities because it's possible to live unsheltered without freezing to death or dying of heat stroke. You might argue that Pacific coastal cities are too accommodating.
@cipher42 I also pointed out that they receive substantially more money from the government that shows that while they still give more then they take, that number is not by much and if you factor in cost of living and everything else which is a FAR more accurate measure, California is one of the poorest states. Saying that the average person makes say 20 an hour is utterly meaningless if they are paying 50% of that in taxes and their cost of living is twice as high leaving them functionally at 5 dollars an hour. That's essentially what California is. Again, as I also pointed out, your basically saying GDP and pretending like that is an even distribution of wealth when in fact it is not even remotely the case. The vast majority of people are poor (as previously explained), and only the tech industry and Hollywood actually produce that substantial revenue your basing that GDP on. Again, its an average so when you place the likes of say Jeff Bezos and average his income with that of a homeless person, sure that homeless person is going to look like he is making a good amount of money, he won't be but the numbers will suggest that. This is California in a nut shell and as I pointed out with California hemorrhaging businesses and experiencing a, as they call it, brain drain (all those who can leave are leaving. This means that the more skilled people are leaving for other states like Oregon and Texas leaving behind the poorer and less skilled people and as things worsen this will only be exacerbated causing an ever worsening scenario (same thing happened in Venezuela)).
@cipher42 So arguing that its "big" which is relative and fluctuates (again, it use to be bigger then it is now), that's a meaningless statement. Techincally China has a substantially bigger economy but what does that even mean? People are not better off their then in the US (or most other nations for that matter?) so what does a bigger economy even mean? The answer is nothing. I never argued that they didn't have a big economy, I pointed out, rightly, that its irrelevant as its depend on really just two industries, industries that are only their because they have been grandfathered in (and we are seeing a shift away to other regions for these industries (Washington is increasing its tech industry and Hollywood is slowly loosing out to other areas (Canada and New Zealend for example, are becoming more popular locations to film shows and movies)). So again, what does that argument even mean?
@hellionthesagereborn "I never argued that they didn't have a big economy," you tried to correct my (true) statement that CA has the largest economy of any state with a (false, or off topic if u were talking about world economies) statement that it has the fifth largest. That's literally the only argument I've made and the only argument I'm interested in making. I've made it, I was correct in making it, you were incorrect in saying it wasn't true. Thats all, I'm done here, bye.
@cipher42 It does have the fifth largest economy, that's not going off topic, it was stated it was fourth and that was not correct so I pointed out its fifth because again, it is. If we are going off of largest in the United states it would be fifth if we count district of Columbia or fourth if we exclude it (going off of your estimate of GDP being an indicator of size of economy (based upon the lists that I can find). So that was not off topic that was a correction of a misstatement. It also would still place it as an incredibly large economy which I never suggested, again, that it wasn't. So I'm not sure what your trying to argue as again, I never suggested it was a small economy, I argued that basing it off of GDP is foolish and meaningless as it doesn't take into account everything else. en.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_per_capitaAs for your "argument" what purpose does it serve if your ignoring everything else? You said that California would be fine, but then after I pointed out all the serious issues its currently facing (and with everything indicating its only going to get worse) your now arguing the only argument your trying to make is that it has a large economy? Which one is it, does it have a large economy that doesn't matter or does it have a functional economy and it will be fine? Those are two very different things.
@slatyb Yeah accomodating when over 27,000 are living either in tents or park benches or abandon buildings and another 1000-5000 living in cars in parking lots that the cities are footing the bill for? Yeah seems real accomodating just as accomodating as concentration camps of ww2
@cipher42 And cipher if you don't want to get off your piece of shit ass and do your own fucking research that's your damn problem NOT MINE so again GO FUCK YOURSELF
I don't know what lists you folks are looking at, but California has - by far - the largest economy of all fifty states and the District of Columbia. By itself, it has the fifth largest economy *of all soverign nations in the world*. List of countries by GDP:en.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)Note that India is ranked fifth with a GDP of $2.9 trillion.List of states by GDP:en.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_GDPNote that California has a GDP of $3 trillion. $100 million larger than the GDP of India, which is ranked fifth in the world. Ergo, vis-a-vis, therefore... California has the fifth largest economy of all nations in the world. And first among U. S. states.
@HungLikeAHorsefly Well as stated, size is irrelevant if your only deterimining that by GDP as again, I pointed out that California is receiving quite a lot from the federal government (they do give more but not by much) and its currently losing significant amounts of business and has had multiple cities become insolvent and are fast approaching the point of complete bankruptcy and the only reason why its staying afloat currenty is because of the big tech companies (which are only their because they where grandfathered in (as tech can be developed anywhere and the only reason why it got its start in California was because the land in the region of silicon valley was cheap (something that is no longer the case))), oil (mostly off the coast and as Venezuela has shown doesn't matter if mismanaged (which the entire state is)), and Hollywood (which is slowly deteriorating as more movies (we are currently seeing it with T. V. shows) and shows are being filmed elsewhere (like Canada and New Zealand)). It has agriculture but so does the Midwest (and a fair bit more of it too), so being overly reliant on these things combined with complete mismanagement and absurd laws that drive off businesses is not going to make a viable economy in the long term. So biggest again, is utterly meaningless when you consider the source of that income generation (which is also averaged so it ignores the fact that most people are in fact poor in California).
@hellionthesagereborn My goal was merely to point out, or rather reinforce, the fact that California does have the largest economy of all states. That said, we're mixing metaphors here, so to speak. Using GDP as an estimator of economic health is an analysis of the *current* state of affairs, while all of the things you've spoken of are potential *future* states for California's economy. Nonetheless, we're speaking of potential futures here, so that's a fair way of looking at it.Is it true, though? Silicon Valley's history can't be boiled down to just a real estate issue. It's primary reason for being located there is the history of technological innovation in the region, due to Stanford University and the presence of multiple military labs. No, the main reason they're there is because it's got an extremely high concentration of scientists and engineers living there.It has cities going bankrupt, but then again there are quite a few U. S. cities doing that in other states. Here's a map:www.governing.com/.../...uptcies-and-defaults.htmlYou'll notice California has the highest share. You'll also notice that the most often cited reason is pensions that can't be offset with property taxes. Presumably because there's a law that prevents it; I don't know the details.The Midwest is a large agricultural base, yes, but the two regions grow very different things. It's safe to say that if California left the Union, they'd have to import grain staples and we'd have to import fruit and quite a few vegetables. Lastly, yes it receives quite a bit of aid from the Federal government. The fact that it pays in more than it receives - even if it's just a little more - implies that if they successfully shifted all of that tax revenue to the state they'd be a little better off than they are now (they wouldn't have to support other states).
@HungLikeAHorsefly So your saying that California is not currently in serious debt? That multiple cities have are insovlent and cannot pay their own debt on top of California's collective debt? Are you saying that California currently isn't the poorest state in the union based upon all available data rather then just an averaging of income (as again, the income disparity in California is massive and one of the highest in the country: www.cheatsheet.com/.../ ) : www.laweekly.com/.../With one of the highest housing costs as well: www.dailynews.com/.../I think your confused, nothing I said was what could happen, its what is happening (like the trash, human waste in the street and rat infestations that are occurring: townhall.com/.../bubonic-plague-in-los-angeles-is-california-on-the-verge-of-becoming-our-first-thirdworld-state-n2548969 ). The only thing that I stated that would happen in the future is the two of the three industries that keep California looking as if its a functional state when you only take into account GDP, are going to inevitably leave as they have no real need to stay their beyond history. So no what I stated was accurate, its happening right now and its quite terrible. Saying that you have billionaires in California their fore its doing good even though almost 25% of its population is in crushing poverty (and that they on average make less then the national average of the country despite also having some of the highest cost of living and housing costs in the nation) is not really a valid argument.
@HungLikeAHorsefly As for the tax remark, that's completely incorrect. The point of taxes is to get a surpluss to run the country, build roads, maintain infrastructure and to maintain a military. That 1% wouldn't even cover a proper military. They would collapse and it would be inconvient for the US and catastrophic for California. Don't get me wrong, I think they should go for it because at the very least we will be able to point to them like we do Venezuela as an example of what not to be, at best California will have to actually fix all of its sever problems, stop pandering and save their state.
@hellionthesagereborn You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say any of the things you're attacking right now. I didn't mention billionaires, I didn't say California doesn't have cities in (or close to bankruptcy), etc. Simmer down a bit.As I stated in my comment above, there's no way California could make a go of secession unless they drastically restructured their tax system, and they won't be able to do that if they want to remain a democracy.That Silicon Valley exists for many more complex reasons than simple real estate is a fact. That their departure would put the Union at a serious shortage of fruit and vegetables is true. That they contribute more than they receive is also true. Those are the things I said; everything else is what you said.California already has a military, although it pales in size when compared to the Union. They would have to increase the size of their military, and they'll have to restructure their taxes to do so.Insofar as income goes, nobody uses averages to discuss this. We use median income as the measure, because it gives us a more realistic treatment of outliers (i. e., billionaires). California ranks #9:en.wikipedia.org/.../List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_incomeIf you want to discuss whether or not California is the poorest state in the Union, you'll have to propose some quantitative measures that we can compare. Most of the things you've proposed so far as qualitative, which are still valuable but also highly subjective ways of looking at an issue.
@HungLikeAHorsefly No I'm not. You said the things I mentioned where things that could happen in the future, I, correctly, pointed out that these things are happening NOW. Their was no "putting words in your mouth", their was no speculation (except on two notes, that being the slow decline of silicon valley and of Hollywood (which we are already starting to see so I would say less speculation and more educated projection) which are the two biggest industries keeping California afloat right now), nothing made up, no arguing something different, I just pointed out what you said was wrong because as I showed, it was. I don't know why you would say to "simmer down" as if I was getting angry, except perhaps if your trying to manipulate the discussion to make me seem more emotional (I was not emotional, I rarely am, I was thorough which is entirely different.) and you seem more rational (which ironically would be an irrational claim to make based upon the fact that emotions have no impact on truth and you have no reason to presume that I am being emotional to begin with)? Regardless its not a very good argument to make, especially after I rightly pointed out that the claims you made about my statements being, to quote you, "Nonetheless, we're speaking of potential futures here. . . " which was what I was pointing out, that is it was an incorrect statement as what I said was happening right now.
@HungLikeAHorsefly You also attempted to dismiss my statements about the insolvency of the multiple cities and the huge debt of the state itself by suggesting other cities are also facing this issue despite the fact that this is irrelevant to the argument and is nothing more then a deflection to avoid acknowledging that having a large GDP is a rather meaningless metric and thus claiming "largest economy" is itself a pointless statement as China's economy is bigger then Norway's or most every other nation yet no one is going to argue that they are economically better off then Scandinavia or Europe. So again, your statements where predominantly incorrect or irrelevant which is what I was pointing out.
@hellionthesagereborn You said:"So your saying that California is not currently in serious debt?" -- Nope. I never said or even hinted that."Saying that you have billionaires in California their fore its doing good even though almost 25% of its population is in crushing poverty (and that they on average make less then the national average of the country despite also having some of the highest cost of living and housing costs in the nation) is not really a valid argument." -- Nope, didn't say that, either. It also not true - Californians have a significantly higher per capita income than the rest of the country, using both mean and median measures. Both of these statements are Red Herrings that you injected into the conversation.As for being dismissive, yes, I was. The fact that California has failing cities - just like a number of other states - doesn't really have much bearing on this conversation.
@HungLikeAHorsefly Actually you are, your saying GDP equals better but GDP is an average of income which is artificially inflated by having a substantially larger quantity of people who are rich. Also your wrong about "higher income per capita" because that's again, false as my links pointed out (its below 50,000 a year for the 99% of the state on average and one in four are in poverty, again, here is the link: www.laweekly.com/.../ ) You continuing to pretend this isn't the case will not alter reality. If your not going to listen then whats the point of having this discussion because I pointed out and provided data for my statements and you haven't been able to disprove those statements with any data, just claims that its false? So again, you are patently wrong, based upon census data, based upon multiple studies and all the data we have on the subject and you pretending otherwise will never alter that fact.
@hellionthesagereborn No, in this case, GDP is not an average of income. There are three ways to calculate GDP: by expendatures, by production and by income. Here's more information on the topic, and how we calculate GDP.https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gdp.aspYour definition of GDP is the "by income" approach. However, when we talk about GDP in the United States, we refer specifically to the metrics compiled by the Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA), and they don't use the approach you suggested. From their site:"The value of the goods and services produced in the United States is the gross domestic product. "www.bea.gov/.../what-to-know-gdpAnd an even more in-depth explanation of how the BEA calculates GDP:www.bea.gov/.../GDP-Education-by-BEA.pdfYou'll note it has nothing whatsoever to do with individual or household income.I looked at your links and discovered we're talking about two different things. You're talking about mean income, and I'm talking about median income. Most of the time, economists use median income when talking about things, as the mean can get artificially inflated or deflated by statistical outliers. Anyway, if we're talking about median, then California is about $11k higher per year than the rest of the country, for median household income:https://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/california/If we're talking about mean income, then yes California is slightly lower than $50k/year. It's $48,899 according to your link. And the rest of the United States' mean income is slightly lower, at $48,150, shown here:www.thebalance.com/what-is-average-income-in-usa-family-household-history-3306189I won't argue that California doesn't have some of the highest costs of living in the country, though. It's outrageously expensive to live there. Which is exactly why I've argued multiple times on this thread that they'll need to amend their tax system if they want to secede and survive.
Scroll Down to Read Other Opinions
There's an issue with the rest of the country agreeing. The rest of the country may be aware of the economical boost that said region provides and thus would never willingly let them go, no matter how those people, in particular, may want it.
@ThisDudeHere Yes, I hadn't thought of that.
California is the richest state in the US in terms of GDP. How come they wouldn't survive?
@SilverRain92 Their backwards laws and regulations, useless social programs that eat up money and massive waste of resources and funds.There's a reason why it's people have been leaving and it's population decreasing overtime with more people leaving then coming to California.
@Phoenix98This Californian thinks the same. I'll be leaving for Texas later on after I get my VA home loan.
Good for you, I work with a Californian and he got fed up with all the nonsense going on down there so he moved down here and likes it a lot better.
I'm thinking of either Houston or Austin. Which would you recommend?
California subsidizes the poor red States in the deep South and Midwest. The blue States send more money to Washington than they get back. The red States survive on checks from Washington.
They shut down hospitals and medical buildings bc of the people that can't pay thats just one reason out of many that they need to go away.
@adidas0169 Hospitals are closing in rural areas all over the US.
@slatyb That is because a hospital is a for profit entity. When it has to service illegals, homeless, and anyone else with no money for treatment they can't survive unless they sock it to those who do have insurance and can pay.
By Federal law I expect you mean Trump administration policy changes? Most states maybe, but not most Americans. Trump lost by three million votes.
So all of the US doesn't matter? We are not Americans because we don't live in California? This is why I support California Seceding from the US, your a bunch of hypocritical elitists who are running your state into the ground while telling the rest of us how great you are despite the rampant poverty. You talk about how great you are because the only two industries you have are silicon valley and Hollywood which also happen to be the only things keeping California afloat. The sooner we get rid of people like you who look down on the rest of America (you know the people who work hard, who provide for their families and communities unlike in LA Where the super rich live in gated community while the homeless are shitting in the streets (and the government actively prevents the problem from being solved)). Here I was hoping that Californians would think about this logically and actually fix their state realizing how terrible it is and how badly they have damaged its economy and its people, then I see all the elitist "holier then thou" Californians acting blissfully unaware of their circumstances and you know what? Good riddance, if you can't act like decent people to Californians and you can't act like decent people to the rest of America then we don't need you.
LOL Most people in LA are not Americans!
@hellionthesagereborn Hahahha 😂 Im not even gonna read all that. Simply put, doesn’t matter what you think it is fact lost people if you mention USA, odds are they think of Hollywood or New York, its not about feeling better than anybody else, it’s just what is! Lol take it how you wanna take it, I really do not care. 😂
Maybe, but doesn't change the fact that its not true and that LA is a shit hole (out break of diseases, rat infestation, 1 in 4 are in sever poverty, highest cost of living and by extension the poorest state in the country and on top of all that elitists like you.).
@hellionthesagereborn haha okay we got a hater. Perfect example of the fox and the sour grapes lol 😂! most people are like that. ;) ha ha
Hate what? California? No, a chunk of land means nothing to me, its just a chunk of land. Hating all Californians? Of course not, plenty are good people. Hate elitists? Well hate is a strong word but its true I don't like elitists, especially when they have done nothing to earn their sense of superiority beyond living on a particular patch of dirt.
If you guys solve the sidewalks full of feces people might get jealous again.
@RationalMale even with all the trash From other states (aka homeless hillbillies), we still cause envy. That’s the sad part lol 🤦🏻♀️
Not really. Your the laughing stock of the nation, those "hillbillies" from other states had to come in and help clean up your cities so they wouldn't be trash heaps. Their is no envy, just pity.
Im sorry to hear you live there. Maybe there's a way to implement home placement tranfer programs for true americans such as yourself but these people fighting for it are too far gone and they have infected your state. Its time to cut off the losses and let them go.
@Creepazoid I don't believe the majority of us would support leaving. The people here are generally good people. They just are often a bit wacky politically. A lot of that is because of the extreme divisiveness we have about what are really fairly small differences.