Exactly. Equal rights... sure... but wanting to be more than equal fuck things up for women and men long term.
If people like you stop calling yourselves feminists and get the message of true feminism across, the only ones left to bark are the radicals. Don't you think it does nothing but worsen the situation?
Feminism will never be what it was. The true message of it fell apart. Stop trying to back something that was torn apart by women who hate men. Just say you’re for equal rights and move on. There is no saving it. People aren’t have a negative view of it and I don’t blame them.
I know what I believe in is feminism. Why would I be ashamed to attach myself to that word? Just because people give more attention to that Free The Nipple advocate than the the founder of Unchained At Last? Is it my fault that people pay more attention to the negative than the positive? I'm Muslim too, should I just stop calling myself Muslim because of the way it's attached with terrorists? Just gonna tell people 'oh I'm not a Muslim I'm just a believer in Allah and his last messenger Prophet Muhammad'.
That comparison isn’t that similar to this. There are other ways to say you’re a feminist without saying you’re a feminist. I refuse to call myself something that has been overrun by women that hate men. It’s disgusting. I don’t want to be associated with that. If you do, that’s your choice. No one bats an eye when I say I’m for equal rights. Just because what you believe feminism is, and just because the actual feminist views are not what is often portrayed in media, doesn’t mean anything when the true meaning is being torn away from it. The movement is no longer good and neither are a lot of the people in it. I refuse to associate myself with a group that has so much hatred in it.
Of course, you do you. But just saying that I'm not afraid to admit that what I believe in truly is feminism no matter what other people think of it or associated it with. Why even bother? Either someone will judge you by that word who don't deserve my time anyway or they understand where I come from. It's that simple. Detaching myself from that term literally means I'm letting those man hating misandrists define feminism in a way that it is not. It's wrong when people say feminism has become all about man hating. The truth is, it was never man hating and it isn't man hating even today.
That is ridiculous, men and women actually started this bad vibe of the word feminism because they wanted to have the right to vote. That was seen as insane during that time.Feminism = equality for both genders, women were the ones who needed to catch up to men in terms of rights hence why it is based on women.I think many women these days are just scared to say I'm a feminist because they don't want to seem crazy to men..For me feminist means equality, I'm not afraid of the judgment a few small minds can make about me if I come out and say feminist.
@eila7 exactly!! Feminism was never welcomed with flower garlands even when it was for things like sending girls to school or giving time the right to vote.
@CubsterShura Actions speak louder than words, one can conjure up any crap and call it anything. Even communism is great on paper. I don't what country you're from but in Western countries there is NO need for feminism anymore. What precisely is it needed for? Instead going back and forth why not just do a simply search on say youtube 'feminist destroyed' and enjoy.If feminism was relevant why would only 30% of people identify as feminists in America? In UK its even lower one poll putting it like 17%. Its a cult plain and simple, pathetic victimhood when instead should be focused on empowerment. Only reason it has disproportionate annoying influence is due to leftwing identity politics. Culturally feminism is irrelevant.
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Pro Tip Ladies: the more blue downvotes, the righter you are. 😉
very true. The relevance of feminism depends heavily on the society where it is applied in.
I'm with ya!
Cubster, feminism isn't helping me because the movement, as a whole, has never done anything for my gender unless it also benefited women.
@SwordShield but that's the whole point of feminism... It is for giving women the rights they have been deprived of...
Also, I would like to tell you that feminists are actively discouraging shelters for abused males, something that would help lower the male suicide rate. And also, you can't say that "it's super rare" for a male to be abused in a relationship, because 40% of the victims are male. That's 4 out of every 10.
@SwordShield who is?
Cubster, feminism says it's for equality. You can't back out of this shit now.
@eila7 Every single one that harassed Earl Silverman until he hung himself in his garage.
@SwordShield yeah it is for equality. When men were the only ones who could vote women wanted equality so that they could vote as well. When girls were not sent to school feminists demanded equal right to education for girls. So no, feminism being for women and demanding equality don't contradict each other in that sense.
Modern feminism declares itself to be for equality.
So, you wouldn't like to help abused men get government funded organizations to protect them?
@SwordShield men obviously should have that, it's a basic civil right
@eila7 Exactly, right? But feminist movements don't talk about that, do they?
@eila7 This is why I'm here.
Yes more blue downvotes you have righter you are that's why only 30% of people identify as feminists? Want a tissue?
@SwordShield I'll give it a watch when I leave work for the day
@Oram52 If you actually have some valuable information to share, go ahead. I'm not a close-minded person, I can empathize and try to understand other views. try it sometime, taking information as factual based on thumbs up or down is pretty basic.Swordshield said there isn't any shelter support for abused men and he has a legitimate point. Feminism does work for the rights of women because that's what they're focused on, which necessarily isn't a bad thing. but does that tarnish the meaning of feminism (equality for all genders), Kinda does 🙄
@eila7 For it to work it needs to have impact, if is impact then it materializes in specific results. What impact is feminism having today on women's plight? What plight are women suffering in Western countries to begin with? Feminism of the past and feminism of today are two completely different things. Feminism is pretty much irrelevant. The question was is feminism helping society - well what are current precise achievements of feminism today? :)Also feminists love to use only few bad eggs argument. So where are these good type of feminists why we don't hear from them? Why don't they provide counter argument to "bad" feminists? Why don't good feminists have their own narrative? Feminists on TV, blogs, News, Social Media are they not your average feminist? Mansplaining, maze gaze? Cultural appropriation... is this how feminists elevating plight of women? What about recent Gillette ad? Why would feminists be against this for example? www.psychologytoday.com/.../the-men-s-mental-health-double-bindFeminism is irrelevant today, today its not feminist solutions that are needed (which they have none) but societal issues. We as a country as a society need to resolve any relevant issues, feminism is irrelevant and inept.
@SwordShield why wouldn't I? Male victims of abuse also deserve protection and justice. Every human being does.
@Oram52 you can have it. Never in history have people identified themselves as feminists or supported feminism. Didn't change the fact that it's the right thing. Not my fault if people don't see it.
"Never in history have people identified themselves as feminists or supported feminism."That's precisely what feminist movement was about, they literally called themselves feminists wrote abundance of books, had rallies, protests etc. Aren't feminists calling themselves as feminists still today? "Didn't change the fact that it's the right thing. Not my fault if people don't see it.Reply "Key word - "WAS". Feminism is irrelevant today. I will ask again - what are the grand achievements of feminism TODAY, as in now. There is nothing to see to begin with. Western countries are one of the most egalitarian countries in the world in what way women don't have rights. 70% of people who don't identify as feminists what is it that they're not "seeing".
@Oram52 that definitely depends on the place, there are lots of countries that still needs feminism, my background is mixed, so I see a lot of women who basically have given up all their rights, hobbies and their lives entirely revolves around keeping their husbands happy, it is quite sad. Pretty much a slave to a man and I detest it. Can you imagine being a 50 yr old woman or man and still being told what you can and cannot do by your spouse? My mother is one of those people and as a daughter I still cannot stop it from happening, which breaks my heart.Women in western countries are far better off and yes feminism did help them, if you ask me we should be gathering up as feminists of the western countries to help these women, instead wasting energy on tiny first world feminism problems we could bring real change into ppls lives in other countries (I can dream, lol)
@Oram52 majority of the women live in countries and regions where they still aren't being treated as equals. Literally thinking that we don't need feminism anymore because women in frickin' Murica have gotten equal opportunities (even though it's not entirely true to begin with) is the exact reason why we still need feminism. It is for ALL women from ALL countries and ALL backgrounds and ALL cultures.
Wow. Some of you are missin the point. Feminism is needed to cause change in SOME countries, but is already irrelevant in others, such as the first world countries where equality is a guaranteed thing.Also, take note, equality isn't the same as equity and thats a fatal flaw about the ideal of modern feminism when applied to societies where women essentially have the same rights as men.
@jeremythedrummer sorry where is it a guaranteed thing? I don't believe the gender pay gap has been resolved and it is much more than just "some countries".
Our point LITERALLY exactly is this - LITERALLY - its NOT needed in Western countries. But yes developing countries they are still striving for equality - feminism, human rights are still needed. "It is for ALL women from ALL countries and ALL backgrounds and ALL cultures. ">>> NOT for Western countries, I'll repeat again. What precisely is feminism needed for in Western countries. What exactly is feminism's grand achievement at this point in time in Western countries? Compare Saudi Arabia and India to UK and Sweden.@eila7" there are lots of countries that still needs feminism"I completely agree with that. There is no disagreement here. I support gender rights 100% and I agree feminism is still needed in a lot of countries around the world. But they're still at the stage where it was 1st or 2nd wave feminism in Western countries. From articles and blogs I've read countries where feminism is needed even they don't want help of 3rd or 4th wave Western feminists. Why do you think they don't have any impact in developing world where feminism is needed? Feminism today is a political movement in Western countries not an egalitarian one. I do support feminism in countries where its needed, and I wish them best of luck. I do support feminism of past it was necessary. We're talking specifically 3rd wave feminism of Western countries which has lost almost all its support.
@Oram52 I'm with ya on those points
@jeremythedrummer correction: feminism is needed in MOST countries.Also yeah I agree that people easily forget the importance of equity. People could live in a society that has gender equality and equal choices and opportunities but still have a lot of sexism.
@Oram52 therefore, feminism is still needed and still helping. End of discussion right here.
I said *some* countries because i live in Singapore, where, well, women are generally more protected than men. Rare case, i know.But yes I've seen case studies of various case studies of third world Asian countries, as well as in the Mid-east where it is undeniably true that feminism is needed in its purest form. But the question is, if thats the case, why are so many people in first world countries complaining about petty "issues" such as having the right to go topless, braless, whatnot, instead of focusing on the REAL issue of opression faced by millions of women elsewhere where help is DESPERATELY needed to stop child marriages, rape cultures, treatment of women as pets or objects, even slaves, to be ordered around. And also they are protesting but not taking physical action IN the areas where women are oppressed. Words are useless without DOING!And @eila7, my home country is a case of the non existence of the gender pay gap. I will agree it exists in some countries but where i am from, it is absolutely illegal to pay anyone less due to race, religion, or gender, given we are a very diverse society prone to unrest should tension break out between different social groups. Much more than that, the law here protects women much more than men. But more importantly, the wage gap is a very subjective matter, as most studies on the subject (at least in the first world countries i know of) are based off gross income per woman/man, without consideration of the proportion of women to men in the workforce, the types of profession that women will uptake more than men, as well as the pay for those professions, which happen to be, unfortunately, lower than that of men who work predominantly in higher-paying professions. However, in almost all third world or muslim majority countries the pay gap is still definitely a predominant issue that needs urgent attention, that i cannot deny.
@jeremythedrummer Singapore is far more progressive than most of the countries in the world. But in most other parts of the world feminism is still badly needed and it is fortunately helping some women with small things at a time... That's how change comes it doesn't happen overnight. And that's my whole point. In 2019, we still need feminism. Period.
I didn't say we dont need feminism. A lot of places still need it. Its just because of what radicals in DCs have made feminism out to be, that i do not associate with the term. I prefer calling myself egalitarian. And in referring to my home country im referring to first world countries as a whole. And like i mentioned here the system is biased against men, which is why im freaking serving 2 years in the armed forces against my will, just because i am male. That affects my view on the whole situation although i try to be as impartial as possible. So take my opinion with a pinch of salt. It will definitely differ from your opinion given that you live in an area where opression of women is a legitimate, urgent issue.
@jeremythedrummer I personally don't think it's a good idea to force men into military service unless there is any need of it. Military training for both genders sounds nice though, I always wanted to get training like that but I don't have the scope for that where I live.
@jeremythedrummer I agree with all your points and yes we should be focusing on the women of the world who need it most, not first world feminism issues
what im saying is, there's no definitw answer to the qn, is feminism needed. The most ethically sound answer would lie along the lines of "needed in certain places" but most will deviate from that, with good reason. there's no right or wrong.
Well, then that's counter-productive. I do not understand that you would call yourself a Feminist, yet advocate men's rights in this situation. It's unethical not just to call yourself an equal rights activist.
@SwordShield I'm a feminist BECAUSE I advocate equal rights. And no, I'm not an 'activist'.
can we just end this alr? Seriously. Everyone here made valid points. Except for Olam57. End of story.
@jeremythedrummer And what points of mine do you disagree with exactly?
Then, equal rights advocate?
It makes no sense. The literal definition of Feminism doesn't actually mean equality.
@SwordShield it does, but it doesn't bear the meaning of equity sometimes.
@jeremythedrummer "The advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes" does not mean advocacy for both gender's rights.
thats exactly why i said equity is sometimes absent from the meaning of feminism. Ok now time for me to get lost. enough is enough
Thank you very much! I applaud you! What sort of things are you trying to help men with?
@SwordShield women are still playing catch ups. What do you need helping with? It's like choosing a charity, I'll support a children charity and you can support the cancer foundation because that is something close to your heart.
You guys have government funded shelters for abused women, and men don't, despite being roughly half of abuse victims.
I want women to have all the rights that I have! For god sakes, I'm an equal rights activist, and I'm tired of being fucking shit on all the time for having privilege! I've never got anything because I was a man! I've always wanted women to have equal rights as well! But this, is bullshit.
just stop using the word feminism, period. If you truly believe in equal rights nowadays and not supremacy than use the word egalitarian.
@SwordShield I really did not know about the lacking shelters for men, I'd never be against that!
you don't know about it because the bias mass media and your public education completely dismiss the idea. I highly recommend you watch Cassie Jay's "the red pill" on Amazon. She's a former feminist and she takes a deep look at both sides of the problem. It got excellent user reviews.
Well, thank you then. This is the ONLY thing I want before I get out of the hellish world of politics.
@backintown I'll have to look into egalitarianism, I don't know that much about it
Yes! Watch the red pill. It gives insight.
Thank you for listening to me. Have a good night.
thanks for the recommendation, I shall!
You won’t regret it. Excellent documentary.
The problem is that it is hurting society and it's hurting YOU more than it's hurting men. In a way 3rd feminism is helping cement male dominance. The reason women don't see it right now is because you're egos are nice and fluffed up from all this celebration of girl power. The 2020s are going to be a tough TOUGH time for women when it comes to wages and job loss and you're going to have yourselves to blame.
@ronaldo75 nah my guy. Feminism 100% is helpful if its actual feminism, most people think media feminism is feminism, and do not know anything about true raw feminism
Discouraging shelters for abused males and making everything about women isn't really my lingo, sorry hun.
Media feminism? THe feminism in the media is the same horseshit in colleges, universities and hollywood. Also you as 23 year old American have NEVER seen women being oppressed.
You are right
Lol All the voters = men with a heartache! Zoe, would you like to go back to the days when feminism didn't exist? You'd be an uneducated, no right to vote, slave woman but ok if that's what you're into
Did Christianity help women's right by allowing women to be one of many wives to the same man? 🙄
@eila7 You missed her point. It's not helping PRESENTLY.
@SwordShield that really depends on the situation/place I guess
Shelters for abused men are discouraged by feminists actively despite males being 40% of domestic abuse victims.
Your cause is based on a bunch of half-truths, stuff taken out of context, and lies.
Dude, you seem to be one of those literal old-white-angry men, to be honest.Why are you so afraid of strong females?
I'm not afraid of them, my mother is one of those independent women and I'm proud of her for it, but your very ignorance is why she doesn't call herself a feminist.
I am aware that some females abuse too, but the vast majority are still the guys.
So, abuse is a rampant issue, so even if we take your deflated stats, we can still come up to 1 million to 10 million victims in North America.
Seriously, dude, I know that women are abused, but they already have the resources that are funded by both the USA and Canada. Men don't have funded shelters like you do.
The reason male suicide is as big as this is because of your narrowmindedness and greed.
I don't buy your 40 % , 15 % is closer to the facts.
Ok, 15%. Still 1.5 out of 10. So, I'll guess that the number of abused people is 10 million, which is generously deflated by me. That's still 1.5 million people, at a much greater risk of suicide.
Now, let's say that because of the already high rate of male suicide, a 6th of that number commits suicide. 250,000 are now dead because of ignorance by the feminist movements, who had a good standing to speak out about these issues, couldn't bring themselves to do so. This was also caused by the narrowminded governments.
Male suicides due to being abused happen every day. Please, educate yourself.
Literal female chauvinists.
Its actually isn't. Would you rather go back to a world where females were not able to go to university, vote or even own property?
@eila7 feminism didn't do anything to make that happen. You're confused
@RobertToast1828 I know you'll have something to be able to explain to this lass
You could thank Christianity and Egalitarianism for the equality of both men and women. There's the political and philosophical. I'm talking about the philosophical. Political ideals are outlandish. Think about Trudeau's blackface. He insulted an entire group of people after accusing his predecessor, Stephen Harper, of playing the politics of fear and division, so avoid talking about the equality for all as a political movement. Feminism is highly politicized (e. g., #MeToo = #MeMeMe).
@RobertToast1828 Toast for the win! Toast be toastin! Toast be educating silly dough headed lasses!! Hope this helps lass!! hugs!
How is any of that related lolEven the reason women can wear pants is a direct impact of the women's movement.
@eila7 I believe men and women can hold equal status in society. Of course what women decide to do with their lives is their choice, but they will too need to live with the consequences of their choices. If they were to decide to, say, pursue a career in their 20s, they can't turn around later to complain about not having children (or vice versa). Life is always about choices, regardless of freedom. Women have now held equal, if not superior status in some if not all areas of contemporary life in western civilization for a number of years now. Either accept that the freedom to choose does not mean freedom from consequence or not have the freedom to decide for yourself. It's that simple, at least in my humble opinion.
@RobertToast1828 Trudeau did that many years before the election even began! I don't support him, but it's being taken out of context, and he did apologize.
@RobertToast1828 the world is not just the United States or whatever white nation you're from. Go to middle eastern or some Asian countries and see how much equality is actually lacking. I do not support anything that gives women more rights than men. What does having a kid got to do with feminism? People can choose to have a kid or not, I don't really care? It's not like I'm saying not fair I have a baby, but I wanted to work? That's a lifestyle choice that people in "lucky" countries are able to make.
@eila7 We can agree upon that.
@SwordShield there's a first for everything 😋 I'm not a man hater - women will rule the world type of feminist, I promise lol
@eila7 Ahh... the good old days.
@eila7 I don't exactly dispute there being issues in Middle Eastern countries and elsewhere. That isn't the focus of my argument. It' is more along the lines of contemporary western culture. You're free to dispute me on the claims I make. Your choice. I will hold to it that feminism in western countries is moot.