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You couldn't be more wrong about Boris Johnson, he has zero respect for British law and institutions, he even tried to shut down parliament illegally. His plan is to dismantle everything that made Britain great, including the Union itself. He is an unaccountable coward who refuses to do inyerviews or take part in debates.
Having said that I'm sure things look different from your side of the pond, and you don't have to live with the results.
@MoscowMitch You have made assertions that you do not substantiate. Grant, that Mr. Johnson's more populist turn is not to my tastes.
Yet, even the idea that he tried to shut down Parliament illegally is problematic. It had historically been within the prerogative of the prime minister to determine the length of a session. When he was blocked, he bowed to the will of Parliament. I am not sure what else he was supposed to do.
As to dividing the union, if your reference is to Brexit, that spark was lit the day Mr. Cameron proffered his ill-advised referendum. While I favored the result, that is a referendum that should not have been held. (Indeed, Mr. Cameron, in his book that I am reading now, suggests that Mr. Johnson was, at best, ambivalent.)
Once that particular horse got out of the barn, the differences between Scotland and the rest of the Union were bound to be intensified. Mr. Johnson is hardly to be blamed for that, and in any case, as far as Scotland goes, it is a weird sort of nationalism that wishes to express itself by subsuming itself in an entity whose purpose is to dilute national identity. In that Scottish populism is more the problem than anything Mr. Johnson offers.
At any rate, Mr. Corbyn wishes to abolish the monarchy. Mr. Corbyn would nationalize industries right and left - if you'll pardon the pun. He favors Irish republicanism. Autonomy for northern England. Has expressed Scottish nationalism and said that he is not a Unionist. The list goes on. In a world of faulty choices, you have the imperfect - Mr. Johnson - or you have the downright awful - Mr. Corbyn. In that the former will have to suffice.
Besides, presuming you are British, should a Brit with the nom de guerre of MoscowMitch really be talking about what other people have to live with? You don't have much of a sense of irony, that's for sure.
Let's just say that America isn't the only country that has politicians sponsored by the Kremlin.
@MoscowMitch Okay, well, as a guy who has worked in our Congress, I'll take that for what it is worth. Not really into conspiracy theories.
as a person who actually lives in the uk i can back up what moscow mitch said but i also found it quite telling that you picked up on people laughing at corbyn during that debate when he said his stance was clear but ommitted to mention the bigger laugh boris got when asked about honesty and trust in politics...
@wankiam Hostility to politicians as a class is the fashion of the hour. Distrust of their veracity and such is habitual and not original - particularly in a populist age. Even Churchill was laughed at in his day.
A difference of degree becomes a difference in kind. Johnson got a laugh because of a general distrust of politicians. Corbyn drew a laugh because of a specific response to a specific policy.
That is the difference - and it is not a small one.
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What's Your Opinion? Sign Up Now!if they vowed to get rid of it why did they not take up the option to get rid in the brexit vote? remain very much wanted long term expats to have the right to vote but the cons vetoed it even though it could affect those people the most
i can respect that as a fellow remainer but i will still vote labour as the stance is more democratic in my view... i think many others are thinking that too so swinson hasn't gained the ground she hoped so to that end my question to you is how do you expect to get to a peoples vote if swinson sticks to her guns of not supporting a corbyn government in the case of the vote being so close its hung again.
especially if green and snp numbers dont quite get corbyn past the post. do you think swinson will back peddle a bit? she seems mighty stubborn to me and it would be really ironic if her stubborness was the one thing that handed it all to boris and farage
ukip are more or less defunkt. only fielding a handful of candidates. farage has formed the brexit party remembe to try to get aware from the ukip image of being overtly racist
@wankiam I know they're smaller, but that doesn't mean they're the not the most sane.
I know Farage moved away because of his concern about image, but that just means Farage was concerned about image and it was more important to be politically correct and listen to the media about ukip rather than actually listen to ukip. It seems more like he was trying to uphold an image to remain politically relevant rather than stand on principle. I think if I wanted to vote on principle I'd choose ukip, if I wanted to vote practically I think it makes more sense to go with Brexit party or the conservatives. Generally I vote on principle, but given the all the bullshit about brexit over the last few years that might be the kind of thing I'd make an exception for.
problem is you are in oz and ukip may well work there. we hear reports all the time of how racist it can be but the uk is not like that in general and the fact ukip has shrunk is a true reflection of human sentiment here, not media manipilation as im sure you imagine
@wankiam Well my impression of the sentiment in the UK is that people would find a lot of ukip's policies to be agreeable. I think that anyone thinks they are racist is evidence to suggest that there is media manipulation. If Farage had stayed ukip would have done a lot better even wth the same policies. Farage just seems to have star power.
i can only tell you what i see out of my window and in my daily life... if you wish to contest that from a view on the other side of the world i can't help but whilst you may see in your own media that farage is a popular man i can assure you popular and populist are not the same thing at all
@wankiam What are you saying you see out your window? And isn't the sentiment of people you see out there informed by the news media?
So are you saying Farage is popular or populist?
he is a populist and what i was getting at is people i talk to all over the uk face to face and not media coverage on him... actually if anything he gets too much media coverage here and many people are trying to hold the BBC in particular to account on that because they give him more air time than a minor psuedo politicain is usually afforded
@wankiam Okay, but wouldn't a populist be a good thing, especially for people wanting to hold the BBC to account for their bullshit? Do the BBC represent him more positively or negatively?
they give him more airtime than he deserves... anyway populism is a form of self promotion where the 'leader; appeals to the lowest common denominator of citizens, those that vilify victims and those that are just basically pissed off with things the way they are but the problem is populist leaders never have a true answer that will appeal to all the voters they attract so if they do get into power they become self defeating... we see it already with italy and ofcourse trump is struggling now.
@wankiam So you don't think that the people's concerns could ever have merit nor that an appeal to them has any value? Even if there wasn't a clear solution, isn't the recognition of a real problem valuable in itself, as well as a directive to explore and pursue solutions to the problem.
I don't know what you been smoking but Trump is dunking right now. He just turned an anti-Trump slogan into a pro-Trump slogan and Tom Steyer exposed himself as a liar. It's freaky how Trump can't stop winning. Can't give him all the credit specifically, he's got a savvy team and the derangement of the opposition makes it child's play. If only they would chill out, then they would stand a chance.
the point you are missing is that ukip dont voice the concerns of anyone other than a very small minority... as for populism its not that people shouldn't be heard but more that its so fragmented there is no way to find common ground on anything. we already see democrascy in crisis and populism only compounds that by saying, we dont want this but we dont know what we all do want instead. thats why its flawed
@wankiam What is it you think these people don't want?
And ukip covers a wide range of things I don't see why it couldn't have wide appeal. It just seems more like there's better established parties and personalities so it's hard to gain traction. But whatever.
people got pissed off with central government so populist groups appeal to that... as for what they all want, they all want different things whch is why im saying populism is ultimately self defeating
@wankiam But you can appeal to many different groups. They're not mutually exclusive. You can have all the things that most people want which work together. That's assuming there is even a lot of division. If there are issues people find a solid slice of the population agree upon then that seems worth addressing.
ukip had one line... cut migration. this concerns many people but if they got power where do you go from their? some will want to see investment in public services while other want a more capitalistic approach, some will want all non white sent home even though many were born here and others will want to just make sure immigrants have a source of income and so on and so on... i already mentioned italiy's problems since voting in a populist leader. take a look at that if you need more examples of what i mean
@wankiam Maybe that was the case under Farage, but they cover much more now. That’s what I think makes them relevant. They seem to have the right approach across many different things. Mass immigration is still a big issue, obviously. But their manifesto isn’t just immigration. As far as I’m aware they’re the only British party with a position on free speech. That’s important. They’ve got all sorts of stuff that seems good.
“some will want all non white sent home even though many were born here”
Well that’s just bullshit. There’s your media manipulation right there. Even from across the world, I can hear from people actually in ukip and I’ve watched ukip meetings, any nonsense about racism is a lie.
I suppose we could call them populist, but that doesn’t mean they’re going to be indecisive on issues. They’ve got a manifesto, they’ve got principles. As with any party, no one is going to agree with everything, but they have a plan.
From what I hear, the issue at present is that some prominent older members don’t like the young blood bringing in internet audiences, so there’s internal conflict. That sucks, but principally they are English liberals worth supporting.
I’m unfamiliar with what’s going on in Italy, but they can’t all be winners.
they are not liberals at all. the members are far right and thats why their support base has shrunk. you can think what you like but as i have told you several times, the assumption im a media manipulated fool is quite wrong. im 52 and have lived through the era of the edl and bnp.. you are the one thousands of miles away, not me
@wankiam “far-right”
Can you even define far-right?
Unless you’re going to tell me “far-right” recognises universally applied individual rights I think you’ve definitely been molested by the media, friendo.
“im 52 and have lived through the era of the edl and bnp”
Funny how ukip literally refuses membership from anyone who has been in the bnp. I hear that Labour actually has ex-bnp members. What was far-right again?
Maybe you’re too steeped in it to see the bigger picture.
ukip was formed by members of the edl, but ofcourse has distanced itself from that little chunk of fact because the edl and bnp were banned. as for racism in the ranks of labour, i can assure you thats about antisemetism and is more related to labours stance on isreal than marching in the streets saying jews should be gassed as the media like to portray it. but hey its clear that you are going to listen to me when you suggest you know more about uk politics than someone who lives here and when you adopt the trump/populist stance of claiming any thing that challenges your view must be fake news so have a nice day ;)
@wankiam But you're saying the things that don't agree with your position are fake news.
So I guess you would say that dossier that just leaked from the labour party about it's antisemitism is bullshit? I'm always inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt with stuff like this but how many coincidences does it take before there's some meat to it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITCX2mDiFzE
ah your stance is finally making sence, you are using the misleading statements of the bafoon which are being dumped everywhere online at the moment , as some basis for what you see as fact. whats interesting about this and it is under investigation by the police by the way, is that the tory party are using the same team of internet 'trolls' as were employed by your oen prime minister in your last election... three aussie guys with the ethos that mud sticks whether its true or not and because they dump so much of it in the public domain that regulators on electoral fairness can't keep up with removing it. also boris's whole campaigned has been based on slagging off the other team rather than telling us why we should trust him so again a very populist technique. but like i said im sure you will read this and dismiss all of it so again have a nice day
@wankiam I never said anything about Boris. I told you my preference would be ukip, but apparently they're "far-right" even though you can't tell me what far-right is.
What misleading statements?
I don't know what "trolls" (that's not what a troll is btw) you're talking about. I don't follow Australian politics at all. I focus on US and UK politics. If someone is peddling bullshit then I'd like to see the truth come to light, if they're telling the truth then I'd like to see them supported. So I don't see why you're bringing it up, assuming it's true.
why aren't you interested in home grown politics? and why do you think you know so much about places on the other side of the world? right at the start of this i suggested you didn't understand British culture if you think ukip have a chance and thinking about all you said this is still very clear to me yet i can understand why they would work in oz.
oh and only 44 ukippers are standing anyway which surly suggests they know they have very little support nowadays... even the most adamant leavers would go brexit party instead
@wankiam "why aren't you interested in home grown politics?"
I don't think we have the same interesting things like brexit and Trump that people go crazy over.
The last election had some crazy reactions and the climate protests are escalating, so we're probably getting there.
"why do you think you know so much about places on the other side of the world"
I just follow this stuff and I'm try not to be deranged about it. There's some shit people say that is truly wild and I feel compelled to follow closely to know when/if/how the world is going to shit.
"if you think ukip have a chance"
I don't think they have a chance, that's not what I said.
"even the most adamant leavers would go brexit party instead"
I agree. They totally should.
"yet i can understand why they would work in oz"
Not sure what you're trying to say about us, but whatever.
it was indeed a story on the opening up of new coal fields in the face of the death of the great barrier reef that made me ask that so yes i agree you have it coming your way
its good to show interest but here's something i learned. if you listen to people from those places you also learn why they are so different. i specifically learned that when looking into why yanks love guns so much. if i apply my reasoning of they dont work here in the uk it doesn't then follow i can apply that reasoning to america because its so very different culturally
fair enough on ukip... it did seem like you were challenging my initial statement that they are mostly defunkt though, hence my reaction
problem with brexit party splitting the leave vote is it may actually lead to remaining as the default but thats also true of lib/dems and the fact they could cause leave in the face of wanting to remain
what i was saying is australia has some of the systems already in place that ukip support but they are systems that would not be so wise here given our need for foreign labour
hope that covers it
@wankiam "brexit party splitting the leave"
I thought Boris ended up agreeing with Farage's proposal to not contest Tory seats in order to not split the leave vote.
"it did seem like you were challenging my initial statement that they are mostly defunkt"
Well, it depends on what you would call defunct. I'm not saying they'll win, Since they're a leave party, I think even the membership know they need to be looking to send their votes to Brexit Party and Tories to make that happen. All I'm saying is that I think they have good liberal principles and I'd like to see them thrive down the line.
"given our need for foreign labour"
I think you can reduce that need though.
I don't recall ukip's position on it, but I think it would be along those lines. But I'd rather not get into it.
ukips stance was to stop all immigration and send people already here, back to where they came from whilst forgetting the fact that the uk was built on migration. so we are 40000 short of nurses right now and many that we already have are immigrants... so how do you suggest we address that without immigration. same crisis in social care and even pulling vegatables out of the ground... if you want to learn i suggest you do more asking and a lot more listening... also the agreement between boris and farage has fell apart. farage admitted as much in interview just last night and also admitted even if boris does win , it could take another ten years to leave the eu
@wankiam ukip set a target of 10000 net migration, but that was just a target to be achieved through time limited work visas and capping the number of foreign students (cap at 500K) and no asylum if passing through a safe country that can also grant asylum. It's a target, not a hard cap. They're not just telling everyone to fuck off. Compare that to the Farage who said it will be a straight up hard cap of 50K net in, down from 300K. Honestly, I think ukip is takinig the gentler approach.
"the uk was built on migration"
Yeah, but not *mass* migration. The point is to restrict it to a level tolerable to the infrastructure until catches up.
"how do you suggest we address that without immigration"
If you reduced immigration, you're also reducing the number of patients. You have 600K new arrivals (300K Net) each year, how many of them are benefiting from the NHS without having paid into it? Quite a few. As long as that's going on, you're always going to need more staff because you're also going to have more and more patients as well. Throttle the inflow of new people for a couple years and invest in training up your native citizens. It's not an overnight fix, it takes some time, but just constantly relying on more and more immigration to plug up holes on a boat that's falling apart because it's overcrowded is doomed to fail in the end. Same for the other industries. Slow things down, shore up the infrastructure, then ease back into immigration as able.
"the agreement between boris and farage has fell apart."
The Andrew Neil interview? I thought he confirmed he was not contesting except for labour dominated areas where the strategy is to pull away more votes from labour than tories.
as stated all those things might seem reasonable to you sat in oz but here they aren't... you should come spend time in the uk and you will see for yourself why arguements that work where you are dont hold water here... again that is the only point im trying to make... i have made similar mistakes before trying to look at the gun issues in america through european eyes so i understand totally where you are coming from but like i said its very simplistic to imagine i as a european could solve americas gun issues and its ridiculous to think your ideology though shared by a very small number of brits, could actually work here
@wankiam What about it conflicts with British values? It's the Brexit Party's platform too, they're pushing similar stuff on immigration, it doesn't seem beyond the pale.
well i already tried to tell you we have huge staff shortages but you seem to think thats an easy fix without migration and then ofcourse there is the simple fact that the net gain to the economy is positive but the tories chose not to spend that tax revnue on improving the health service or schools etc but look im not here to spend my life explaining to you all the little differences between our countries... i have made the point i wished to make more than a handful of times now and i need to get on with other stuff today... all i can advise is before you make judgements on other countries you dont just look at the partisan politics but also look at the people and what they are saying
@wankiam "you seem to think thats an easy fix without migration"
I didn't say it was an easy fix. But you can fix it.
Start training people into these professions. Use forgein labour on work visas to pad the intermediary period.
Migration is not a fix, it's as much the problem as you think it is the solution.
"but the tories chose not to spend that tax revnue on..."
It doesn't matter what the tories did. We're talking about what can be done moving forward.
"partisan politics"
The last thing I give a damn about is tribal nonsense. I'm looking at the numbers, I'm looking at the polls about what people want and what they're saying, I am listening to British people and their feeling about how the culture reacts to all this.
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