It definitely doesn't mean that anymore and if you believe that I would stop identifying as a feminist
I agree wholeheartedly. We should all be treated equally no matter what gender we are. I was always taught that we are all equal and to help each other where they are weak and build on their strengths. In this way everyone's being built up instead of being put down. Life would be a hell of a lot better.
i agree :)
Actually it's a movement aimed to improve the social standing of females. Goals might have been to get equal rights to males, but that doesn't make feminism a movement for equality. Goals change all the time, and even during it's founding there was no complete consensus on how far should they go. So in fact, todays feminists who are sometimes called feminazis, extreme feminists or whatever, are not misusing anything. They simply have another goal, while being feminists. They are simply the most active group of feminists, so even if they are not the majority, they are preceived as a majority. And majority always gets identified with the ideology, just like Stalin's bolsevism is identified as communism instead Trotsky's trotskyism.
Then why don't popular feminists bring up issues facing men? Male suicide has long been a silenced issue, the media neglects it, scientists neglect it, feminists neglect it. Suicideis only one issue though, men are now less likely to go into post secondary schooling compared to women, men die more on the job, men are on average disproportionately affected by divorce settlement, and men are less likely to have custody or even visitation, with many men being restricted to only seeing their children for a few hours on weekends. The only group I see championing men's issues is men's rights activists.
Men are also more likely to suffer from addiction, more likely to get attacked on the street, and men statistically serve longer prison sentences for the same crime, when compared with women.
no disrespect to anyone but the question asked what my personal definition of a feminist was. i am the type of feminist i described in my post. and with everything i do, i try and equalise both genders as much as possible
Fair enough, I just feel like feminists in general are not focused on helping both genders. Sorry if I was rude.
you weren’t rude. i actually agree with everything you said. i just felt like people forgot what the question asked
Well that is kinda pointless, isn't it? Next thing you know it, someone will copy the definition of liberalism and say that is his definition of fascism.
@BrotherFrost Feminism has become a broad movement, as a result they disagree with each other a lot, if she wants to define feminism that way, then I say let her. It's simply her feelings on feminism, what it means to her and what she wants it to mean to others. I think we all agree that most feminists are not like her, but that's fine, movements can get rebranded.
@BrotherFrost Also, this is semantics, but you made an improper comparison. Liberalism and fascism are types of movements, they are ways we define a movement, feminism is a movement. Movements can shift, sometimes radically, especially if they have a leader. However, the definitions we use for movements typically don't change too much, liberalism, fascism, communism, socialism, left wing, right wing, centrist, the definitions might shift as the politics moves further left or further right, but for the most part these definitions dont change much.
@devilman666 Feminism is an ideology just like communism, liberalism and fascism. And they all are movements as well. Each of the ideologies has their versions, eg. bolsevism, maoism, titoism... But they all have a claim to the same core. For example, all of the mentioned sub-ideologies are left wing so they share some standings. We can sum them up as socialist ideologies. They are just factions within the same ideology. Feminism has improvement of social standing of females at it's core, so both "kill all males" and "we don't need it anymore, bit i'm a feminist" are feminists. But just like people identify stalins version as communism or socialism, as he was the most powerful among the socialist faction, people will identify the loudest feminists as "real" feminists.We have ideology names for pretty much everything you can stand for. So being a liberal and calling yourself a fascist, or being an egalitarian and calling yourself a feminist, will just confuse people. They will treat you as what you say you are, so you're acrltually making your own problems.
Ideology (google dictionary) : a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy.System: a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.Movement: a group of people working together to advance their shared political, social, or artistic ideas.Feminism is both of these things, it is an ideology and a movement, there is the feminist ideology which forms the political theory of the feminist movement.
"Kill all males" is not feminist actually, some people who call themselves feminists might say it, but it is sexist misandry, not feminism.Also, I disagree with what you said about Stalin's communism, most people view Marxist communism or Leninism as true communism, I think everyone knows that Stalinism is even authoritarian than communism. Most modern communist regimes use Marxist communism, Leninism, or Marxist-Leninism.We might have ideology names for almost everything, but that doesn't mean it is pointless to try and redirect the movement. I guess the best way I can word this is that feminism can be viewed as a spectrum, the movement as a whole is further towards man hating rather than loving both genders, but the main idea holding them together is caring about women and women's rights. The movement can swing to the other end of the spectrum though.
@devilman666 The only socialism is authoritarian socialism. Anarcho-syndicalism is not socialism. It is a left-wing ideology, but as it's not collectivist it can't be considered socialism. All ideologies are in a spectrum: there were and always are factions within an ideology. Feminism can swing towards fascism as long as womans rights are in focus. Now you can make a name for that particular sub-category, but it's still feminism. And again, feminism was never about equality. It was ALWAYS about women, never about men. Egalitarianism is an ideology which advocates for equality, so the moment you start advocating for equality of males and females, without focusing on one of them, you stop being a feminist. Insisting that that is not true is equivalent to insisting that you are a bear.
Well I said stalin's communism was more authoritarian, obviously they're all authoritarian to some degree.Good to know we agree then, ideologies exist on spectrums and thus feminism can change, and her definition of feminism fits on the spectrum so it is a type of feminism too. If feminism can swing towards fascism then it can swing away from fascism too. It doesn't matter if feminism has always been about women, if feminism exists on a spectrum then it can move along the spectrum to be more accepting of everyone.As for egalitarianism, you are making an improper comparison. Egalitarianism is a believe that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities, It is the ideology I use to define myself. Feminism is about the genders, it focuses specifically on male and female. Its like saying that members of black lives matter should start calling themselves egalitarian because egalitarianism already offers what they want.
@devilman666 "i believe feminism is the concept of equity and equality between the male and female sexes."This is a direct quote from op. This is not feminism. So again, saying that this is feminism is an equivalent of claiming that she is a bear. It's simply not true.You can move along the spectrum as long as you stay on that spectrum. You can not be a socialist who is in favour of a capitalist free market, because then you have left the socialist spectrum.
It's a branch of feminism then. Jesus, why are you so adamant that things can only be what you choose to define them as? Feminism is a broad movement and ideology, it exists on a spectrum.Maybe I need to dumb this down a bitSo on the left of the spectrum, you have man haters, fascist feminists who support things that benefit women explusively. To the right you have more egalitarian feminists who want to help both sexes. Same thing with MRAs (mens rights activists), you have misogynists who hate women and only care about mens rights, and then you have egalitarian MRAs, and everything inbetween.Does that make sense? As long as it has to do specifically with equalizing the genders, it can be considered feminism.
You're picking one point on the spectrum and saying it represents the whole spectrum, and simultaneously saying that any egalitarian style of feminism is not feminism, even though you've offered no direct evidence for this.
@devilman666 How is this complicated? FEMIN ism focuses on females. Feminists can be man haters or non-man haters, as long as their focus is on females. The spectrum is caring about women. Loving or hating men has nothing to do with that.
@devilman666 FOCUSING ON FEMALES IS THE SPECTRUM!For fuck sake man...
You can choose to define it that way, but just because you give the movement a toxic definition doesn't mean that everyone feels that way. Even by your definition, pppppkk is a feminist because she cares about women, As you said, "loving or hating men has nothing to do with that". It's not about caring about women exclusively, feminists can support mens rights. You are being really narrow minded with this.
@devilman666 Sure. And you are being a bear. Because that's how i choose to define you.I also choose to call right left and left right. Good luck going where ever you went to when you ask me for directions.
@BrotherFrost clearly your argument comes from a position of bias. You defined feminism as focusing on women's rights, by that definition pppppkk counts as a feminist, even if she also cares about mens rights. She focuses on womens rights and thus she is a feminist. You're making really silly arguments that are just based on your feelings of feminism, I understand if you think most feminists dont care about men, but you still haven't given a definition of feminism where pppppkk can't be counted as a feminist.To make this more clear, to leave the feminist spectrum you would have to stop caring-about/focusing-on women's rights, since that is what YOU defined the feminist spectrum as. She still cares about womens rights and thus can consider herself a feminist.
@devilman666 hi i love this thread. i agree with you. i couldn’t have said it better myself
@devilman666 Actually i have a masters degree in political sciences, so my opinion comes from the position of authority.Again i quote the op: "i believe feminism is the concept of equity and equality between the male and female sexes."Feminism is not a concept of equity and equality. There are two genders. While egalitarianism is not limiting itself to gender, feminism is. And one particular gender to be exact.
That is what it means to her and what she promotes, her definition still incorporates what you define as feminism, "focusing on/caring about the rights and freedoms of women", which is what I assume you meant by, "focusing on females" and "caring about women". Her definition merely extends that to caring equally about men's rights.I really don't get why you refuse the notion of any feminist supporting mens rights, cause what you're saying is that feminists are only allowed to care about women's issues, or else they're not feminist. That's not the case, you can care about and focus on women's rights while also caring about and focusing on men's rights.
@pppppkk thanks, sorry if it comes off as white knighting, I figured this guy would understand if I tried to talk to him, but he seems vehement in his belief that femism is supposed to care about women's right exclusively.
@devilman666 If you read her sentence you will see the emphasis is on equality and equity, not females. That is egalitarianism.I am simply stating that she may call herself a feminist, but unless her emphasis is on female rights, that is not the case. Think of it like this: you have left-wing, right-wing and center ideology. Note that this has nothing to do with the communism/capitalism axis, this is an independent one. So, feminism and... well, "mennism" are on two opposite sides (left and right, or right and left, which is where is irrelevant), and egalitarianism is in the center.
@devilman666 FEMin isim. It's in the name for fuck sake. Feminists can not care about mens rights and remain feminists. Mennists (or whatever they are called) can not care about female rights and remain mennists. It's not even that complicated, it's simple logic. Goals of feminists always have female rights in the center no matter are they advocating for female supermacy or having equal rights to men.
"I believe feminism is the concept of equity and equality between the male and female sexes" or to reword that:"I believe feminism is the concept of empowering women and women's rights and freedoms, while also equally and equitably supporting men and men's rights and freedoms to the same degree."I think the meaning of those is the same, just one is worded much longer and slightly more carefully. If you read into her definition it does include emphasis on females, it just also holds and equal emphasis on males. And no, this does not make her egalitarian, as she can be an egalitarian and simultaneously be a feminist too. Further, there is the possibility she is racist and hates black people, in which case she couldn't be an egalitarian (I'm not saying she is racist, just pointing out that her stance on feminism says nothing about her stance on equality as a whole).You're framing the whole spectrum thing incorrectly. You see, feminism and "mennism", aka Men's rights activism, are not on opposite sides, that is a false dichotomy. They do not say opposing things, they are both focused on completely different issues. You could view it on a spectrum where the left is suppoting only womens rights, and the rights would be supporting only mens rights, but the center would still not be egalitarianism. As I already pointed out, egalitarianism is about more than just men and womens rights.And to state it once again, as long as she has an emphasis on women's rights, she can call herself a feminist, just as I can participate in the Men's rights movement despite considering myself egalitarian. I could consider myself a feminist, egalitarian, men's rights activist if I wanted and none of those contradict each other. You keep pushing this idea that she needs to support womens rights above all else in order to be a feminist, and that's simply not true.
Tl;dr she has an egalitarian branch of feminism and likely has an egalitarian mindset overall, but none of this invalidates her feminism, because she fits your definition of feminism, which is "caring about/focusing on women, womens issues, and the rights and freedoms of women", or as you so eloquently phrased it, "caring about women".I think I'm done with this conversation, it was a fun argument, I genuinely enjoy semantics, but I don't see us getting anywhere. I think we are both starting to just repeat ourselves at this point.
@devilman666 You can't replace what she wrote with what you wrote and keep the same meaning of the sentence. To see that yourself you can simply replace the word (s) "feminist/feminism" with an "X".Feminism implies internationalism, mennism implies internationalism, and egalitarianism implies internationalism as well. That is why they are on the same line. For example, i am not an internationalist, so i can bot be a feminist, mennist nor egalitarian. I mean i can, but then it is mandatory to add the word "national" somewhere, which changes the circumstances drastically. As a national-egalitarian, i am limiting my egalitarianism to my nation. But that is redundant as the term "left wing nationalism" already exists. That is why i am a left wing nationalist, and not a national-egalitarian. True left wing nationalism is an umbrella term for a bunch of slightly diferent beliefs, but it's focus remains on the nation state and socialism. So we can say that an equivalent of her calling her egalitarianism feminism is me calling my left wing nationalism egalitarianism. My term is of course much wider, but that is because it's underdeveloped as it never held much power nor was that popular.
@devilman666 It's not "my" definition of feminism, and that's the point. I didn't come up with it. If you look at ideologies individually you are forced to find key points which means the definition is self evident. Today feminism is defined wrongly, plain and simple, because of political reasons. Ask anyone who studied political ideologies, he will tell you the same. Just like Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea is not democratic just because they say they are, feminism is not about equality just because people say they are. As you wish. My point however stands. What you implied is that egalitarianism is both feminism and mennism, which is simply inaccurate. Egalitarianism is defined as " a school of thought within political philosophy that prioritizes equality for all people". Egalitarianism is the one that emphases equality, not feminism.
How does feminism imply internationalism? Most feminist movements have been national in nature, fighting for the rights of women in that country.I said an egalitarian branch of feminism, meaning it is feminism which incorporates some of the beliefs of egalitarianism.Regardles of whose definition it is, you still haven't explained how she does not fit it, you merely imply that she isn't a feminist unless she fights exclusively for women's rights. There are radical feminists that push women's rights with the intention of hurting men, but that is not the entire movement. The movement is around fighting to support womens rights, so if she fights to support women's rights then she fits the definition and can consider herself a feminist. If I fight for mens rights I can consider myself a men's rights activist. Someone can fight for both womens rights and mens rights simultaneously, so they can be feminist and menninist at the same time. In this case her brand of feminism incorporates the ideals of mens rights into her feminist beliefs.As for egalitarianism I agree with the definition but disagree that I implied egalitarianism to be both feminism and meninism. I said multiple times that egalitarianism is separate from this discussion entirely because it focuses on more than just gender. You're the one who implied they're one in the same, with your incorrect spectrum, "feminist on one side, menninist on the other, and egalitarian in the center".Finally, you could have a national-egalitarian movement. Egalitarianism does not imply internationalism as you say, it merely implies equality for all people, that can be viewed as all people in your nation, or all people on earth, depending on your point of view.Tbh, I don't know why I'm bothering, I know this is a waste of time.
Its not redundant because "left wing" does not mean the same thing as "egalitarian". Left wing means liberal, egalitarian means equality. Liberalism often incorporates the ideals of egalitarianism, and egalitarianism is a left wing ideology, but they are not the same thing.
We can view egalitarian nationalism as a branch of left wing nationalism, but they still aren't the same so it still isn't redundant. Left wing nationalism does not necessarily focus on equality, egalitarian nationalism does.
@devilman666 I see what is the problem here. You live in a political 2d world like most westerners so you think liberalism is left wing and conservativism is right wing. It's an extremely americo-centric way to look at the world. I am nowhere near a liberal. I can't go on line this. Just replace "feminism" with an "x" like i told you before. Everything i speak of is obvious in a 3d world where the left-right dichotomy is economy and top-down line is social.
"I believe X is the concept of equity and equality between the male and female sexes""I beleieve X is the concept of empowering women and women's rights and freedom, while also equally and equitably empowering men and men's rights and freedoms to the same degree."Happy?"X can not care about mens rights and remain X"What is your point? I dont see how replacing "feminism" with "X" changes the argument at all.I live in a political 2d world? Can you describe that? Cause it sounds like you're making shit up just to try and piss me off. Earlier you said you have a masters degree in political sciences, I call bullshit.Leftwing:google dictionary: the liberal, socialist, or radical section of a political party or system.Britannica: Left, In politics, the portion of the political spectrum associated in general with egalitarianism and popular or state control of the major institutions of political and economic life. Wikipedia: Left-wing politics supports social equality and egalitarianism, often in opposition to social hierarchy. It typically involves a concern for those in society whom its adherents perceive as disadvantaged relative to others as well as a belief that there are unjustified inequalities that need to be reduced or abolished.Like what the hell do you think left wing means then? XDFurther, I'm not uneducated, I know politics is more than a spectrum of left wing and right wing positions. There are multiple spectrums you can look at and multiple variables you can use to define the spectrums, sometimes the y axis stands for authoritarian vs democratic, authoritarian vs libertarian, collectivist vs individualist, etc.The x-axis however, is almost always reserved for economic policy which typically falls into either liberal or conservative.
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Lol - either that, or the Chinese or someone from Islam trolling the forums making the western men and women hate each other, hoping for the end of the species (that is prettier and better developed/more brainy).It doesn't mater it comes across as hatred, they're fine with that, because hatred it is (and the media will let you publish anything as long as you pay - we keep thinking it's internal, but in all likelihood it is financed by ISIS or Turkey or alike (and then North Korea and Russia get blamed as always)
Someone here was mentioning how they read on reddit how men were in agreement they don't care if their significant other posts nudes on Instagram. Nobody questions who's behind that. It could be:- What's-his-name-Facebook-wacko promoting hatred on Instagram so he earns tons more- Someone from Islam who wants the western (or Russian) beauties to look like whores (and prostitute/ask for money - so they can then claim the west is hypocritical)- Some uglies who want to make it OK for the hot/pretty ones to ruin their lives (but I find this unlikely)- The same people who are behind the publicity of feminism (and who'd be able to tell who that is when you can post anything under any name and attach any photo you want to your profile)Sweeties (of the gentler sex) - beware of those baits!
If you wanted to bring the west down, you'd first go for a campaign of 'we all hate the nice guys' - and then frustrate all the geeks too busy studying and doing engineering to date - into thinking they are unfuckable - when they are essentially anything BUT in female eyes (they all want to bang and marry a geek who's doing alright and isn't violent)Instead, they go promoting manly-men, AKA the violent bullies, that is the Turkish types - so the hens that read it start thinking how it is somehow popular to date those a-holes and uglies - because 'the media' says so.Behind that sits Erdogan and keeps paying for advertising so his army of immigrants can conquer Europe by dick (because neither bravery nor anything else they've got much of)
Share the thoughts with others brother - the moment women realise it they will be the first to turn the page and go back to being the loveable creatures they are (and we can quietly let those planning the destruction go do it in their own back yard, their surplus of superior males etc etc)
@soleil2666 Will do.
I don't get why people are disliking your opinion, unless they're creeps...
It IS that difficult, as people in the position to ensure equality frequently DON'T. This is why you see so many opportunities for women and minorities, because without them, we get passed over regularly. Many of the attempts to ensure equality are viewed as racist/sexist because they make you pay attention to these things based on those parameters. Equality doesn't just happen.
i agree. that’s why i believe in equity more than the “equality” part
When do feminists start annoying you?
@OddBeMe: I don't pay attention to them.
So why do you say go to hell?
@OddBeMe: Meaning the modern philosophy.
Could you be anymore vague? How about specifics?
Isn't it illeagal to pay people different wages in America?
@MixedDrinks not even a little bit.
Im talking base pay, not including raises or disscused salaries. I'm talking base pay for the same job, not the average wage accumulated from all men and all women. Even Google led an investigation into a possible wage gap they had and found they were paying women more then men. The wage gap theory has been debunked so many times since 2015 it's become redundant and annoying to hear it from someone of your age.
It hasn't been debunked even once. Some explanations have occasionally popped up by, coinincidentally, people who want it to be debunked, but there has been no effort to account for every vent of the wage gap. Indeed, the task itself would be next to impossible - to suggest it has been done already is necissarily leaping to the conclusion you want, regardless of which way that goes.
Vent = cent. Stupid autocorrect..
can you not read?
I can read just fine. But it's a very broad and semi loaded question you narcissistic fuck
How am I being narcissistic hahah. I asked what do YOU think feminism means.
Trying to act high and mighty because I asked a valid question
I don't think you know what narcissistic means.
Yup, bunch of dumbass were talking there
If you’re talking biblical, you’re right. But luckily there is no god.
Men should keep their shirts on too
@VIVANT me too
Thought that was incels