This guy just called this pandemic a "little thing"
@crmoore Good call, dude! Focus on the meaningless little words to the response, and totally IGNORE the INTENT!! Dude! You need to run for mayor, then representative, and then, who knows, with that lack of focus on the REAL POINT, you could be President in 25 years!!
The thing I pointed out wasn't just a minor jab, it sheds light on your predisposition. You're regarding a world-wide pandemic that has tanked the entire world's economy as a "little thing." That by itself demonstrates your poor credibility, which directly impacts everything else you said. I'm surprised that you don't know (or biasedly refuse to acknowledge) how incredibly incompetent you come across when you regard this very serious issue as a little thing. If that's the way you see things, why should anyone genuinely consider what you have to say? I mean you're clearly seeing things through a lense. And the japanese that you're so keen on referencing are literally paying companies to move out of China as we speak. And this isn't just "oh this disease came from you, shame on you, give me money." No, there have been studies done from the UK that point out that 95% of COVID-19 cases in China (and subsequently the rest of the world) could have been avoided if action was taken when the (silenced) medical whistle-blower warned of serious issues. This proposition is an issue of pure negligence. Not only in how they reacted, but how their wet markets (if not lab testing) incline these sorts of viruses (but predominantly how they reacted by trying to cover things up. Here's a few links if you're curious.1: www.dailymail.co.uk/.../...hree-weeks-earlier.html2: hongkongfp.com/.../
@crmoore Yet you don't really address my point, and insist on insulting me! Do you have a real point, or just personally attack anyone that disagrees with you?Post something, a reference to some SOLID evidence, a Journal, peer-reviewed, and not just 'something I read on the internet'! You start your post with 'Hypothetically Speaking' yet now, you attack me, personally, and my credibility?Dude, think it through, and make a legitimate argument, with REAL support, and I will discuss.
I've explained why I haven't addressed your points, because you're biased and let your predisposition influence your judgement. And I'm not not "insulting you," I'm discrediting you, of which is a natural part of debate. You attempting to guise it as "insults" rather than refutation really speaks, again, to your biased judgement. You're attempting to ignore the meaning behind the unpleasant truths and regard them as something meant to hurt your feelings, not make a case. This is child's play and has no room in the debate you're so desperately yearning for. Not to mention, I'm being no more insulting than your unnecessary use of foul words like "childish BLAME shit" or "stupid blaming crap!!!" (Not to mention your childish sarcasm about me running for mayor and president). Seriously, grow up.As for that link, that's probably as solid as you're going to get right now. Remember, we're still in a pandemic, most countries don't even have enough tests to test everyone who is exhibiting symptoms and you not only want want solid evidence, but you want it to be peer-reviewed, too, while everyone is trying to sort out the madness that their lives are? The evidence isn't accurate in nearly every country, how could it be solid? Besides, China clearly isn't providing true numbers, either, which even makes "solid" evidence even less viable. Not to mention, the article I provided references to a study from YALE, the 3rd most prestigious college in the US if not the world. And here you are regarding it as something "I just read on the internet." That's your third strike for allowing your bias/lense from clouding your judgement. It is entirely clear that you're a man of emotion, not logic, and the debate stage is not somewhere you belong.(Response continued in the following comment, as it would have exceeded the character limit otherwise)
As for your initial post, this was a hypothetical question about if China owes the world, not a genuine proposition of how to go about getting what China allegedly owes us. Those are two different things. Asking if they owe us isn't saying "they owe us and we're going to get it" which is the way you're interpreting it (see "get REAL!! How is this going to hold up in ANY court?"). It's a question of principle, not a question of how we're going to get China to accommodate us. But if you must know, China is a production powerhouse. If after the world began recuperating and we got back on track, if many of the world's formidable nations banded together and demanded accommodation from China, China would likely agree to propositions within reason, such as canceled debt, removed tariffs, new trade agreements, etc.Now that I've addressed your points, it's your time to address mine. In both of my responses, that being my initial one and this one, I've pointed out your bias and predisposition. So you're going to have to address 1. how you attempted to downplay this world-wide, world-economy-tanking pandemic as a "little thing," 2. how you attempted to downplay my invalidation of your stance as "insults" (please support why they're insults and not valid observation), and 3. why a study from Yale is "something I just read on the internet" rather than a legitimate piece of work to be cited?As for the topic of the argument, tell me how solid evidence is supposed to be obtained obtained within reason during a world-wide pandemic, lockdown, while travel bans have been implemented, etc?
@crmoore You haven't addressed my point, that you posted this as "HYPOTHETICAL" and turned it into something like some big deal!! Sorry you got upset that I disagreed with you, but that is life! Sometimes some people will simply say that you arr full of shit!! You haven't proven anything, except that you are good at changing the focus to something other than the topic! Let me guess: Democrat?I don't have any more time to bother with your inconsistent nonsense and judgments, so I wish you well, and you 'win' because you aren't worth my time.
You are the one who turned this "hypothetical" into "some big deal." Does "get REAL!!" ring a bell? And even if I did take a hypothetical and turn it into a big deal, I fail to see how that is in any way conflicting? And I'm not upset that you disagreed with me, in fact, I was so unmoved by your post that I half-assed my initial criticism of you, and it was SO half-assed that it struck a nerve with you about how I allegedly "focus on the meaningless" which encouraged you to employ low-grade tactics like sarcasm. And trying to imply the opposition is in some way frustrated simply for being your opposition is an exceptionally poor attempt at trying to make yourself appear valid. And I have proven several things, and I've addressed literally everything you mentioned, I haven't changed the topic at all. I guess there's no point in asking you to show me which things I haven't proven and to explain why the evidence I've provided fails to qualify as proof, considering this is allegedly your last response. But if it isn't, please show me how I haven't proven things, as well as address all the points I asked you to in my prior response (that you're clearly avoiding). But please, show me where I've been inconsistent.And no, I'm not a Democrat. I'm a conservative who has only ever voted Republican.
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Well, let's scale it down. What if 1 person neglected something and got 1 other person killed as a result, but as they were being killed they were like "yeah, my bad, here let me try to help you." Is this manslaughter punishable?
I mean, if the first person really did try to help them that would downgrade it at least from manslaughter to criminal negligence causing bodily harm (Zoe somecequivalent) so no, it’s not the same as manslaughter.
Or equivalent, sorry for the typo I couldn’t see it as I was typing on my weird ass phone :p
Okay, let me rephrase the question: is this criminal negligence punishable?
I assume there would be some degree of restitution yes. As I mentioned fines might be viable to help offset the costs to countries like Italy and soon the third world. China should definitely be helping cover some of the damages to the countries whose economies will be eliminated from this.
But by that logic the USA should be paying war restitutions to Libya, Syria, Iraq, Somalia, etc. France to the Congo, etc.
I admittedly haven't been paying attention to wars, but I assume the USA hasn't been like "*rolld dice* alright, so now we're supposed to go to war with Somalia. Gather up the troops, men." People dying as negligence is one thing, people going to war as retaliation is another thing. One is warranted, one is accidental. Let me ask you this, if someone comes up to you and punches you in the nose, do you either punch back or press charges? If yes, then you retaliated and your retaliation is warranted due to their prior act of unacceptable behavior. You can't compare negligence to retaliation.
The wars were all geopolitical struggles for control of resources. Opium/morphine for Afghanistan, oil and water (Tigris Euphrates) for Iraq, Oil/Petro-dollar protecting for Libya. So negligence would be better.
You're seriously telling me we said "hey, give me your lunch money" and started bearing the kid up when he said no?
Yup, more or less literally.Bush had a large stake in Eli Lilly and the Taliban had just banned opium exports in 2000.Libya was working on an alternative to the Petri-dollar.Syria was building a pipeline to bring Iranian oil to Europe across their northern regions (where the American allies and France are currently occupying)
They refused to play ball with American companies and got screwed. Look at panama, Venezuela, Vietnam, etc for other examples.
I can't help but think there's more to it than that. (Besides, wouldn't the UN have intervened if a nation was bullying a lesser nation like that?)
Read the confessions of an economic hitman if you want more of the back story but no it’s not a whole lot more complicated than that.Part of the deal on world bank/world monetary fund, etc loans from American institutions is they came with strings involving voting along with the USA in UN votes on certain issues.
The UN also has condemned the US’s actions on several occasions
Such as forceably stealing resources from a country, got it 😂
If the US has made such terrible actions and all the UN has done is condemn them, then the UN is pretty insubstantial.
The UN is primarily funded by the USA so yeah, there’s not a ton they can do about it for now.
I forget the resolution but the UN condemned some recent action Trump had done and he straight up threatened to pull the plug on their funding.
And WHO is primarily funded by the USA despite explicitly condemning the US for their early travel bans.
Correct, did you see the WHO trying to juggle how to talk about Taiwan without upsetting China’s feelings? It was ridiculous :p
It was. But if we're paying them more, and according to you money influences action, why are they favoring someone who pays them significantly less money?Look, I'm not definitivelt saying you're wrong, but saying we literally just beat people up for resources is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. Just as a random thought of potential explanation, we could have had an agreement with Libya that for some sort of resource or service, they'll give us X amount of oil for X amount of years. And when they suddenly go back on that deal, we threaten retaliation. Which is warranted. It's like going back on a contract. And if the US allows them to, the rest of the world knows they don't have to keep their promises to the US, which even further warrants the retaliation to whoever is going back on their deal. Like it's almost guaranteed not to be as simple as you're attempting to make it out to be.
Oh I’m simplifying it a bit for sure but those were the core reasons behind each conflict. For Iraq there was also having a flanking position on Iran and trying to isolate them from the rest of the middle east. Afghanistan has militaryvimportajce as far as the ability to threaten Russia (as does northern syria). Venezuela hasn’t hit the war stage yet but really was 99% over the socialization of theirvoil.
Money influences action but only so far, Trump had also already cut a bunch of the WHO’s funding when he came into office so they weren’t very keen on him.
The basic American empire strategy:Predatory loans are offered in he name of development. They come with conditions like access to ports, access to raw resources for American companies, voting with them on UN resolutions, etc.Stage 2: if money and corruptinga few wealthy individuals fails and a socialist gets in they send in he jackals. Aka the cia. We saw this in Venezuela’s attempted coup, it’s how they got gaddafi too, through funding the local terrorists to fight him. The assassination of panamas president by the cia being another example.If the jackals fail: as in Vietnam, Iraq, etc. The military gets involved. Lately it’s been in the form of bombing campaigns more than boots on the ground as losing American lives is politically expensive.
Well, I'm not familiar enough to truly discuss this, but if they agreed to the loans, then they agreed to the loans. Let me ask you this, if the US accumulated trillions of dollars in debt, then another president comes into office and says "nah, I don't agree with what they did, I think our money is better spent elsewhere, so I don't have to pay you back" do you think that is warranted? If not, then why is it okay for a socialist to dishonor and go against the deal their entity had made prior?
If the US was in a state of bankruptcy and was forced to take a predatory loan from China that resulted in Americans being poor as their wealth is exported to China, Americans would definitely fight back and eventually break the deal.
Which is the situation for a lot of the developing world and part of the reason they are stuck that way
It’s more large companies now than America itself since the end of the Cold War, but corporate dollars decide who gets to run in the election so it’s still a massive problem. Note that both the republicans and dems are both pro prison, pro big pharma and pro war (in action and votes if not in words)
It doesn't matter, you made a deal. And if Americans did the same, they'd deserve the retaliation they get. We didn't have to give them a loan, they didn't have to accept, so when we each come to an agreement, that agreement needs to be honored. If it isn't, retaliation is justified several times over. Imagine a world where you don't have to honor your word, you can just say "yeah, nevermind" whenever you wanted without any sort of retaliation.
So Americans should be paying back taxes to King George?
Again, you'll have to pardon my unfamiliarity (I unfortunately hadn't assigned much value to schooling early on and history was my least favorite subject) but I assume you're referring to how the British here in America protested the absurd taxes, correct? Assuming that is what you're referring to, I'd imagine that's different. The British in Britain weren't like "hey, is it cool if we tax you more?" And us being like "yeah, that's cool, no problem." And then suddenly "hey, yeah, we don't want that anymore so we go back on our word." I assume the British government simply did it, there was no deal agreed upon. If, for example, the people in Britain were like "hey, you guys want quality spices for 40 bucks a bag?" And us being like "hell yeah we do" then the people in Britain send it over and then the British in America were like "haha just kidding, we aren't paying for shit." Then yes, the Americans owe whoever the deal was made to. But when a government, against the will of the people, imposes unrealistic principles that the did NOT agree to, then retaliation is warranted.Again, things aren't as simple as you're trying to make them seem (assuming you're talking about what I'm talking about).
So the taxes were to pay back a bunch of money that had been pumped into the colonies to beef it up for the napoleonic wars. It’s a pretty direct comparison.
Did you coincidentally send anothe message right after I sent mine or did you read all of that and this is your response?
No, I read it. I’m a fast reader as it’s my job.
That's very impressive. But to respond: If there was an agreement that "we will send you to America, and after a little bit, we will tax you *this* amount" then yes, we owe them money because we willingly went to America knowing we'd be taxed a lot. That's an agreement. If they simply sent us over there without saying "you'll be taxed much more later on" then no, we don't owe them anything because they supposedly made the taxes unreasonable without any form of agreement. In this case the British are the ones who took the risk, and the British that went to America shouldn't be punished for that. They sent people over to a place that they couldn't financially sustain without imposing unrealistic policies onto the people, of which, again, was likely not agreed upon. And if there is no agreement, there is no "direct comparison."
Theoretically speaking, if nearly all formidable countries in the world all collectively demanded China accommodate them, China would reluctantly oblige, if not attempt to withstand on their own and then reluctantly oblige soon after.
This is the trump era. The days of multilateral cooperation are gone. The U. S. could impose restrictions and Europe, Russia, other Asian countries could totally ignore us. . . and with good reason.
I think that they don't give into demands from individual countries, if nearly all of the rest of the world came together, I'm sure China would reluctantly agree.
Possibly, but at the same time China also knows that the world relies on them for a lot of industry, so they could hold their own hand at the table at least for awhile.
For a little bit. There people have been in disarray for a long time, if they stop making money from the goods they produce, their people will go nuts.
Obviously it isn't all too reliable to band large amounts of people together, but if the entirety of the world, as everyone has been affected but this virus and the negligence of the Chinese government in that regard, all banded together and unanimously agreed that china has to accommodate the rest of the world, they'd have no choice but to accept because while we all individually rely on China, China relies on us all to buy their goods/services.
True but it's a big IF. Given so many diseases arise in China we'd be better off insisting they deal with their poor hygiene standards than pushing for compensation.
Super agreee on the standards point.
There's 1.5 billion of them, girl. You see what I'm saying? And 1.3 Indians. That's a lot of motherfuckers!
I phrased it this way because I didn't want people who disagree to respond with "they didn't do that" instead of answering the question. I wanted to know what they think should happen when the legitimacy of an aspect is assumed to be true.
Which disasters? And I mean that genuinely rather than implying "there aren't any disasters the US started."
They did, chinese people in the medical field were saying China's numbers were inaccurate. Not to mention, they supposedly did this with the swine flu or some other medical outbreak way back when.
Swine flu originated in the U. S.
I was talking about them giving out inaccurate numbers, not claiming it originated from them. But it also may have been the Spanish flu that they obscured the numbers from, I don't explicitly recall.
Which of our ear crimes have effectively shut down the entire globes economy?
At least it destroyed the Middle East, parts of South America and parts of Asia
Firstly, they had an outbreak earlier than anyone, so it's practically inevitable that they "take action zooner" than everyone else. They could still take action sooner than others whole simulatianeosuly having reacted to their outbreak later than everyone else, so that doesn't speak to China's credibility. And what about their actions were effective?
If it originated here due to neglecting their people with poor governing, yes. Trump should accommodate for effectively shutting down the entire earth's economy.
Poor governing-like ignoring warnings for over a month and taking no action, spreading conspiracies, blaming the disease on his opponents, minimizing the risk and giving out dangerous and wrong advice? That kind of poor governing?
Firstly, WHO and China was telling the whole world that there's no need to panic or change anything. He implemented a travel ban and it was even criticized by WHO. He reacted quicker than most, if anything, it's China and WHO you should be regarding as "poor governing" as many people delayed their precautions DUE to those two saying "no need to worry." Thank God Trump didn't listen to them. Secondly, no, not "that sort of poor governing" I explicitly mentioned the governing I was regarding. Let me repeat myself. A virus originating due to the negligence of their people. And then lying about it to the rest of world (despite Chinese medical professionals begging the rest of the world to send more medical supplies because it's getting out of hand), actively telling them not to worry about it while they're falling a part. Did Trump do either of those things?
The Big Cheeto was informed in early January about the threat-he said the virus was being hyped by Democrats to try and harm him. He poo-pooed the danger, said it was no worse than the flu, refused to put in place measures to deal with it, had previously dismantled the office in the CDC formed to deal with Pandemics, refused to use proven WHO tests for the virus insisting we develop our own thereby wasting months in response. He has spread misinformation, Americans have died because of his incompetence and all you do is try to reassign blame for the Trump Virus away from Trump. Yes it originated in China and they screwed up their response but Trump screwed up America's response and Americans have died who would still be alive were someone competent leading our government instead of a narcissistic huckster.
Again, the disease did not originate here due to a lack of negligence, his actions have not caused the world to become infected (if anything, it would just be more Americans), and his actions were 'based' on the claims of 'China' and 'the World Health Organization', both of which were saying the same things that he was. Again, you asked me what sort of negligence and poor governing warrants accommodation, I've told you twice, and you keep trying to give me reasons as to why that's hypocritical of me, despite being unable to provide something within the boundaries of the qualifications that I have explicitly laid out. Are you going to waste our time and try again or give up? To make it easier, even after I've repeated myself, I'll repeat myself for the third time. Origination due to negligence and the infection of the rest of the world due to deliberately obscuring information warrants accommodation.
First, I'm not trying to convince you-you drank the kool aide long ago. I don't waste time arguing with Trumpholes - makes them think they actually have a legitimate view. You don't call the shots-and neither does Trump. I do not have the time nor the inclination to educate you. I don't respond to your rants. Go back to plotting the overthrow of democracy or your next school shooting. You're boring.
Educate me? You tried to imply hypocrisy and was unable to do so. You tried twice. The debate isn't about what Trump has done, you tried to imply that based on my qualifications of what is to be accommodated for could apply to Trump, you haven't given a single example of my qualifications applying to anything Trump has done. You tried twice, you failed, you realize you can't do it, so now you're running away. Be the adult that you likely are and admit that your initial stance was faulty.
If it was from the US, was rampant throughout the entire world due to negligence, and shut the the entire world's economy, yes.
Dude seriously read about the Spanish influenza, it started here but US covered up and it was the Spanish media whom start reporting about it Oh and by the way millions of people die because of it Dude please inform yourself
Is not the time to point fingers right now is time to try to save lives and be prepared for what it lies ahead, we need each other right now and be patientBut that's my humble opinion my friend
Spanish flu came to Europe from america but it's thought America got it from china. Every country covered it up, even threatened doctors who reported it. Only spain spoke up and unfortunately ended up with the name
If most if the other formidable countries were to demand China accomodaye the rest of the world, they wouldn't make hardly any money from all the stuff they produce. And a very large percentage of their population is in questionable living conditions despite making a majority of the world's products. If they're not making money off those products, their people will quickly change their mind.
Why wasn't anyone More prepared for this? The SARS and MERS and now this. You know why China seems to be the breading ground for these viruses, look at what they eat. They eat dogs and cats. BATS, RATS, BUGS They don't care. I watched a video on YouTube of a guy eating a bowl of baby rats, THE DAMN THINGS WERE STILL MOVING. They suspect bats were the host of all this, so kill the damn bats so this shit don't keep happening. And to the people in China, stop eating the damn bats and your pets.
There's no way they could repay the world for the damage that was done, but China has a lot of factories and production power. They could certainly help everyone get back on their feet. If not that, they could pay the world back to some extent gradually over time with the money they inevitably get from their production power.
I'm not talking just about the US
I know, im just saying theyd probably pull that card out and use it on others as well.
I agree, I phrased the question that way so that people who disagree with that couldn't avoid answering the question by stating "China isn't doing that." I wanted even those individuals to answer the question of what should be done, under the assumption that they are.
In that case? Sanction, sanction and sanction. Kick them out of Africa is as well. We shouldn't sit idle while they turn behind into vassell states.
You're just a salty indian.
Indian guy Knew he had coronavirus and went to a party. Now the entire city is locked down. You should probably fix the problems of your own people instead of criticizing other countries.
still triggered eh?
Are you mad that I called China a cockroach?
It’s rich to call China anything when India has the same situation as China but has failed to modernize itself. India can still learn from China in many things. You are just salty.
So you are Chinese and triggered.. 😂
Wow you have shown yourself to be pretty stupid.
Says the guy who just assumed that I'm from India 😂...