Thank you for your response Sir.
Can you substantiate your claim that studies show people know less after graduating? It's counter-intuitive and, I suspect, something you made up.
@HungLikeAHorsefly You suspect it because it doesn't fit your narrative. You want to believe that your ideology is right no matter what (but of course the truth doesn't follow an ideology) and that you, more then likely having graduated, want to prove that your elitism is well founded (its not). So you don't actually want the source because your going to not like what it says and thus determine it must be completely false because you could never possibly be wrong (because people like you are highly predictable and have no ability to self reflect).www.nysun.com/.../www.outsidethebeltway.com/.../www.npr.org/.../in-college-a-lack-of-rigor-leaves-students-adrift
I suspect it because I spent about 20 years of my career working at universities; I think you'd be skeptical too if someone made such a bold claim about your job.Two comments about your links: there is no control group in any of the studies mentioned, and the study results you cite claim a third to a half of students know less than they did when they entered college. The first issue, lack of a control group, is important because you're implying that simply going to school results in knowing less than if you didn't. That's not what these studies say at all, and since we have no comparison to people who don't go to college, we can't say whether or not going to school actually results in less knowledge than skipping it altogether. Unless I'm wrong and that's not what you're advocating.The second issue, that only a portion of students fit this description, is also relevant because that kind of result is to be expected. Just as with everything else in life, not all people are created equal. There are a LOT of really worthless students going through our educational system at all levels - why would college be any different? Also, as one of the two studies notes, the results are skewed by discipline. People who go to school to study business and other professional fields are _far_more likely to not have learned anything by the time they graduate than students who study things like social science and humanities. So you could argue that all the posts here on GAG that talk about college being a waste of time unless you study something remunerative like business and STEM are contributing to the problem; it's the business and STEM students, largely, who these studies are referring to.
@HungLikeAHorsefly The control group was the study that was doing this particular survey for over fifty years. As for the skepticism, its because it reflects on you and their is no way you could ever be wrong, could ever be flawed ergo everything else in the world must be wrong (again, these were two studies, their was a control group (over fifty years of doing it). As I pointed out and predicted (because people respond the exact same way when their ideological beliefs are questioned) your now making every excuse you can for why they are wrong and you are right because you cannot self reflect you cannot question your ideological beliefs etc. We also know that schools have forced out decenting voices (specifically conservatives) over the same time period we have seen a drop in ability for college students. We know that they have been increasingly promoting "alternative" writings and removing the classics during this entire duration of time that we have seen a drop in writing ability. Their is no question about this, the only issue is whether or not your willing to accept facts even if they may look bad or go against your ideology and clearly your not.
@HungLikeAHorsefly As for you third rationalization for why this study must be wrong and your right, it was done over a 50 year time period, they have been keeping track of this for decades now and have seen the drop. They have seen that grades have been getting "better" even as skills decrease. They have had controls, they have had many controls over many years and again, your ignoring facts because they don't suit you (very unacademic of you).In short you are wrong and your rationalization is poor at best. I provided you with the data, I told you you would reject it in its entirety, that you would refuse to believe anything that didn't already conform to your world view and you did not disappoint (not that I had any hopes that you would suddenly turn around and become self aware anyway). This is why I have stopped providing links to my arguments because people like you just do not care about the truth, your to in love with your ideology and ego's to care about the truth (which for a man like me is infuriating). Its simply a waste of time (and the saddest part about this is your going to walk away from this feeling like you "won").
The fact that it's a longitudinal study doesn't equate to having a control group. Two very different things, with different results. Having done the study over 50 years means they can compare the performance of students right now versus students in the past, but they still can't compare students in college to those who aren't - like I said. Of course, that's not what they're trying to do anyway.I think you're making excuses for weak supporting evidence because it supports your narrative that Academia is a bastion for biased, Leftist thought. It can't possibly be the case that the truth doesn't agree with your worldview, because you (and most other Conservatives) think with your heart and not with your mind. So, let's step back a little: what is it you're trying to say? Do you think college is a waste of time? That's clearly not what the studies you provided are saying...
@HungLikeAHorsefly Right, its different because they can show that over 50 years their has been a progressive degredation of quality in schooling that also corresponds with other studies that show these educational institutes have become increasingly more on the left and more pro socialists instead of having a environment that encourages open discussion. So yeah, its a control. I mean what other control could you have non college going students as they graduate non college. To say your grasping at straws is a gross understatement. Again, you've done precisely what I told you, you would do. Its rationalization because you know you can't argue against the facts but the only other option is give up your ideological belief and that is a not something your capable of doing.
That's exactly the kind of control group I'm looking for: how much of this same information do people who don't go to college retain? I'm guessing it's a lot less. But we don't know, do we? Because there isn't a control group in either of the two studies you posted about. Having a desire for scientifically robust studies is not "grasping at straws" any more than your misrepresentation of what the studies do and don't say is "grasping at straws".In terms of ideology, I'd say you're guilty of the same thing. Your Conservative bent makes you want so desperately to believe that people are being indoctrinated against your worldview, rather than questioning whether or not your worldview is actually rooted in truth. And then there's the fact that you're conveniently overlooking a few other tidbits about the higher education system here in the United States that is far more likely to lead to lower educational outcomes for a third to half of students (not all students, as you incorrectly stated). Having many, many more students than they did 50 years ago, having had budgets cut to shreds (mainly by Conservatives) over the past few decades, having students of much wider socio-economic demographics, having a much greater emphasis on non-academically rigorous disciplines like business (which one of your studies specifically stated)... the list goes on and on. But no, you'd rather think it's Marxism or whatever the fuck, because that's what makes you feel good.
by the way, I can't find the actual text of the "Failing Our Students, Failing America" report _anywhere_. It's not on the ISI's website; do you have a link to the text? It got hammered in the academic literature for being a very poorly conducted study, and the ISI has a clear Conservative agenda, so I want to read it for myself.
@HungLikeAHorsefly Again, excuses upon excuses. No, the budget hasn't been cut. California has the highest paid teachers and schools and also has the worse educational system in the country (also has the most left leaning as well). Previously we had school choice that allowed people to choose what school they went to within the public school system, something that was and is championed by conservatives, yet democrats/leftists have shut down any attempts to do so ensuring that no one is allowed to change schools if they think the school is bad. So if your going to argue that is the reason, you would have to blame the left (you won't because you cannot blame your own because that would mean your ideological beliefs are not in fact perfect as you try to present them (hence you being completely unable to objectively point to flaws within them). I'm tired of this, you have done precisely what I said you would do. You claimed to want sources, and I told you you would ignore them and here you are ignoring them. I told you that you would find some reason for why everything presented was false and you where right (because you cannot fathom the idea that you may in fact be imperfect or your ideological beliefs may in fact be perfect (you would slit your own throat before believing that)) and then what did you do? You made up excuses for why they were wrong and you were right. Their is no value in speaking to you, you have no interest in the truth.
Wait, are you talking about K-12 school? I thought we were talking about higher education. I pointed out flaws in the links you gave me because they do have very significant flaws, and I don't just automatically accept things because they're written down in a study somewhere. That's what a college education teaches you. You should try it sometime, rather than just latching on weak sauce just because it agrees with you. Try to think for yourself a little.
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Thanks for your response Tony.