...“Free markets" are a utopian fantasy, a dream of people who want and need to imagine an economy functioning without any collective agent or agency to govern, regulate, etc. It is very anarchistic. It has been tried to various degrees and failed to come into existence. Its failure has not been for lack of ideological commitment or effort. "Laissez-faire" capitalism always oriented itself towards an utopian ideal of "free markets" as a distant goal of policy and hopes.Many factors have precluded the achievement of the utopian dream of "free markets." Chalking it up to evil elites is too simple to be of use. Even if you believe that, you would need to explain how they achieved the power to do that, why no countervailing power overcame them, and so forth.Every policy movement towards "free markets" over the centuries has been undone, stymied, frustrated, reversed, etc. That has to be explained in some serious analytical way, or else the conclusion that needs to be drawn is that it is an unworkable fantasy that human history has rejected. By the way, on the left, communism in its utopian formulations likewise defends itself as "never yet tried," leading to the same set of questions about why not etc that demand the same analytical response if the whole idea is not to sink into largely irrelevant fantasy.
I think you just want free stuff. Get a job.
I’ve been working 70 + hours a week since I was 15. Troll harder.
Sure you have. Okay. Good. Hand over all your earned income to the poor, and shut up.
I’ve been volunteering since I was 9. All my free time is spent helping without monitory gain. Bc I’m not an asshole. Your response shows you either you are too lazy to read, or don’t know how to think. Also wow are you obnoxious. Very unpleasant person. There is no reason to be a brat, if you want to have a rational discussion You are in your own way. Go volunteer instead of making up boogeymen to attack on line. It’s definitely more character building. And it’s” helpful” .
Also I love it Op asks what do you think Gag member answers this is what I think OP shut up So I guess there was no question. 👌
You started the name calling. Grow up. Get a job.
"By contrast, socialism is defined as social ownership of the means of production so that the surplus product accrues to society at large.The social relations of socialism are characterized by the proletariat effectively controlling the means of production, either through cooperative enterprises or by public ownership or private artisanal tools and self-management.Workers' control of the means of production” essentially means that workers have control over their work processes and management over their work by virtue of controlling the means of production."Do you have an example of any socialist country where things actually worked this way? Because while this is the theory, in practice, a government of elites controls everything that gets all the benefits, and everyone else barely gets buy when things are good and starves to death (literally, by the millions) when things go wrong.When I was working for DirecTV and DishNetwork, I was constantly installing satellite TV into the homes of people getting free housing and other assistance. These people had no jobs and no reason to get a job, but they had power and water and TVs and microwaves and satellite TV - the struggles of the poor in a capitalist country.How many people wait in lines to break into socialist countries?
@MrOracle Exactly, I have been in socialist ran places, you don't want to live there. Feel free to leave the country if you think it's so bad here...
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Jeff Bezos is a genius who provides a service people want. No one is being forced to work for Amazon. Your response is twisted on so many levels.
"No one is being forced to work for Amazon."And where are these people supposed to work?The companies which don't exist because Amazon aggressively acquired them or the companies which don't exist because the monopoly of Amazon prevents their existence by dooming them into unsustainability right from the get go?My response is entirely accurate.
I will introduce you to reality. Where are people supposed to work? Are you serious? https://www.indeed.com/ - https://www.monster.com/ - https://www.linkedin.com/ - Amazon is not the only company in the world, bud. You also have the option to start your own business and provide a useful service the same way Jeff did.
Actually, your response is twisted on so many levels.He's right.
Newsflash: Amazon is NOT the only place to work.
My guess is WildButterflySupporter isn't a union girl. :)
you are confusing modern socialism with historic communism, a mistake made by so many right wing americans. i dont mind if you want to try to discredit socialism but the way you have done it is similar to if i attacked trump by referencing dictatorships.
as for secret police or the stazi as i think you were trying to reference whats the difference with the fbi and have you americans worked out who the unmarked militia dressed all in black were lining up with police when trump ordered the removal of peaceful protestors outside the white house?
Ex soviets claim they never reached socialism for one (currency) and for second how can you guarantee that human nature has changed such that forced thought isn’t part of the whole package. Liberals can become violent when you don’t think by their mantra. BLM, Antifa, and others, follow violence to push their versions of socialism. The thing that is overlooked by you socialists is that one can walk away freely from capitalism while socialism has always carried the element of forced acceptance. Personally, I prefer to retain my will of free thought. Why are you so willingly to have others do your thinking for you? I haven’t confused anything because human nature is consistent and history shall always prove that out in the end. Your liberal idealism is still dependent on capitalism today, once that is gone and purely socialistic; nothing is there to stop the progression to Stalinism. Therefore, that thing that seems to work is the balance between capitalism and the taxed socialism. Remember your history, always!
how can you walk away from capitalism? do you know how many endless conversations i have had with people who feel completely trapped by the system? the same system that makes it ilegal to sleep rough or in your car even... highest rate of incarceration in the world and many of those were people who got into debt and through reasons often beyond their control found themselves on shit street. how many americans have i chatted with that have a serious ailment but can't afford to go to see a doctor so suffer instead. all im saying is you seem to be concentrating on the ills of one system whilst ignoring the ills of the one you subscribe to. i may be a lefty but at least i allow myself to not be so blinkered
@wankiam Then quit being selfish and pay more taxes willingly to the system. Send your entire income into the pool so that all the redistributors can fix all these problems. Put your money where the talk is. You can be the model socialist today, right now, by sending all of your income and assets into the pot. That is what your really are promoting in the end.
assuming a lot there matey. i pay my taxes and im happy to do so because i live in the uk where they are spent mostly on social projects to benefit everyone while your taxes go to fund enless foreign wars or subsidise the fossil fuel industry but let me just add this if you can open your eyes for just a second... during the last three months while many have struggled to manage on the pathertic 1200 dollars to the degree a third of renters are now facing eviction, your wonderful president gave 300 billion of your tax dollars to the three richest men in america. oh and by the way i drive a mercedes and own a holiday home so dont assume im looking for an easy ride myself sitting on handouts
@wankiam So, as you confirmed, you live the capitalist dream of a fancy automobile, two homes, and freedom to move about at your will, but for some reason you curse the very things that gave it to you. You almost emulate George Soros, as he reaps capitalism for money and then turns around and tries to burn it down with that money. I am not sure I can understand that dual personality and hypocrisy. If you are a socialist, then surrender to it and don’t live the dual lifestyle talking out both sides of your mouth.
no i didn't, i confirmed im happy to live a life where i pay my taxes towards making sure everyone can be comfortable... great job on ignoring every other single and more important point i made though just because i pointed out this wasn't about me expecting something for nothing which is the usual path you right wingers go down
@wankiam If you can achieve the same while surrendering your properties and assets, then you have found the liberal nirvana.
so my place in the uk, i rent and my merceds came to me cheap through my job as a classic car restorer and my house and land in bulgaria cost half of what you would have to pay to buy a second hand fiesta... maybe when i reach my ultimate goal of actually moving to bulgaria i will have found nirvana but you mentioned earlier that you can escape capitalism didn't you? well yes you can but its not easy and it helps if you have a passport with european citizen written on it. i talk to several americans that say they wish to escape the rat race but very few actually have a choice to be able to do that
@wankiam Escaping capitalism, socialism and any other influential entity is peace. Unfortunately, capitalism is the ugly vehicle to achieve escape velocity. Anything above a 30x30 apartment and mass transportation is a luxury in most regimes and any other regime will keep you and own you for life. by the way, Bulgaria is beautiful.
bulgaria is indeed beautiful... all im saying is its hard for me to see someone picking fault with one system whilst refusing to accept the faults in the system they live under... you know if you look in from the outside with a very objective view its hard to see the difference between america and china right now and i know you won't understand what i mean if you are so invested in maga and i had to take my leberal hat off to see it but when it comes to freedoms, state lies and all round chest beating while ignoring human rights its all there clear as day
Veteran benefits are part of military compensation for risking their lives to defend the country. There is no such thing as "free public education"; it's government schooling. This is dangerous indoctrination, and it is paid for by theft, yes. If you want education, go to work and pay for it.
The Servicemen's Readjustment Act or G. I. Bill became law in 1944. People who served knew the terms of their service going in. If it was part of their compensation, why was the legislation needed this late in the war? When you sign a contract for a job, are you entitled to more than what the contract says after the fact? You are correct, no public benefit is free, but in the case of public schools, it is "free" of tuition for students. The term "government indoctrination" is extreme given that U. S. schools are largely run at a local level. In terms of the idea that you only deserve school if you can pay, this is in the unfortunate case in much of the world. And the babies that grow up illiterate and unable to count make more babies who are illiterate and unable to count. Is this the model that should be followed? Where is this great place that is so good at preventing stealing?
How exactly did the rich steal from anyone?
@ShortCircuit So Nikola Tesla didn't deserve his wealth? The fact is that one Tesla advanced the world way more than any one of us ever could.
Paying absurdly low wages and overcharging for everything, just like in the past 30 years in the U. S.Wages have only increased a few percent in the past 30 years, but hte average cost of living has doubled in that time.That's rich people stealing from the poor nad middle class.This stimulus bill that congress passed gave 85% of the money directly to the top 1% of earners, and only gave 15% of the stimuls to working families. That's rich stealing from the poor again.It happens all the time, you don't become a billionaire by honest means.
The rich are paying a price for work that the workers find acceptable. No one forced the workers to work for a salary they don't like. If you don't like it protest those exact companies, but the thing is that the workers are still being payed for the work they do. Increasing the wages will only result in automation and moving the factories overseas. When it comes to overcharging, again, it's two parties willfully partaking in trade. The buyer obviously considers the price to be fair enough to pay it.
@Sargentcaptain Workers do not get paid for the work they do. / value they create. Employers and companies get paid for the work the workers do. Workers hat a fraction. Obviously you can’t simply protest bc it’s the same exact problem everywhere and too many people need money so badly they will be wiling you work under any circumstance so the employers never feel the impact of a protest. The whole country would need to protest. And that would be against a protest against capitalism itself. Bc that is capitulation. Profiting off of laborers.
@VIVANT - Then go start your own business and share the profits equally with your employees.
@VIVANT Profiting off of their ideas. Workers do not deserve to earn a portion of a (for example) a car they make because they didn't design it. Capitalism breeds innovation and interconnection. Designers can't survive without workers, workers can't survive without designers.
1st, paying low wages is not stealing. 2nd, if you don't like your wages, get a better job or start your own business. How do you socialists become so damned entitled?
@Sargentcaptain You misunderstood the meme. It was intended to point out that there are tons of other sources of value besides labor, yet socialists who subscribe to the labor theory of value regard labor as the sole source of value (or the only legitimate one). I don't subscribe to that belief, and in fact, believe value is PURELY subjective, so in reality, there are more sources of value than there are genders in modern gender theory. @WadeDanielSmith2 "Wages have only increased a few percent in the past 30 years, but hte average cost of living has doubled in that time." - Rent increasing is a result of inflation. "This stimulus bill that congress passed gave 85% of the money directly to the top 1% of earners, and only gave 15% of the stimuls to working families." - We are in agreement here. End corporate subsidies. Let them fail. Corporate subsidies are antithetical to capitalism, and wouldn't exist without the state.
@Sargentcaptain tesla died broke.
@eatuout6982 Sure, but is that a good thing? His inventions changed the world. We wouldn't be having this debate without his contributions to mankind.
@Sargentcaptain tesla was used by thkmas Edison for his own profits. One of the flaws with capitalism. But without capitalism. People like tesla and Edison and Bill gates. etc.. would not have accompany anything.
oh so by redistributing resources (which costs resources, lots of resources) we are actually lessening the net load? I wasn't aware things worked that way. This is awesome! I'm just gunna pull my shoestrings up real hard and before too long I'll be sky high! I CAN FLY OMG MY DREAM HAS COME TRUE THANK YOU FOR FREEING ME FROM THIS ILLUSION!
@Shamalien that's how everyday insurance company's works on a for profit business. And at large a whole society.You look like one of those "into the wild" Chris McCandless kinda guy. Spoiler he starves to death alone in a bus. More power to you if you want to die alone in the woods over a twisted ankle or a poison potato but tax is a part of a society larger than yourself.
your insurance company analogy is a lot better than the water one, but it doesn't change the fact that in the absence of overburdening government regulation, insurance is VOLUNTARY and you pay only for the insurance which you VOLUNTARILY CHOOSE. Unlike taxes, which are mandatory, and if the average citizen had any idea where the money went, they would never in a million years advocate this practice. Oh but please, do go on about 'what I look like' to you. People like me aren't afraid of a twisted ankle or a poison potato, we figure shit out and get by. Accidents happen, my solutions don't create Utopia, no solutions do, but my solutions are MORAL and don't involve theft, so I'll stick with them, thanks. Yeah don't go into the woods you might twist an ankle and die LOL your life sounds like a blast man XD ooh wilderness so scary I need big daddy government to keep me safe. Ever heard of people voluntarily organizing themselves without coercive force? Are you so close minded you don't believe it possible? Does society really need to be run at the point of a gun? I'd like to remind you, that's what government is. Government is the gun in the room. Can you address this moral problem, or do the ends justify the means in your head?
@Shamalien fucking hell take a look at electric, internet, and even just this website and the power it took to send your words to me. All this infrastructure it takes to communicate just between us. Of course we are not splitting all these resources 50/50 in our back and forth here. Imagine this concept on a larger and larger scale. As time goes on we should push for more as we get better at things. I'm not saying it's going to happen over night but saying tax is theft on a website using internet and electricity is pretty weak.
Do you want me to explain how retarded what you just said is, or are you just going to ignore it completely and move on to your next retort? You are aware that the internet and all this infrastructure were built by people, yes? I'm not saying everyone needs to use exactly the amount of the infrastructure they funded, that is most likely too difficult to implement, what I am saying is that it should be funded voluntarily, without coercion. There is no need for government, people are fully capable and intelligent enough to organize themselves in a peaceful and non violent matter. Take away the gun in the room.Let's take an example. Let's say there is no undersea fiber optic line connecting my continent to yours. I'm guessing a lot of citizens on either side want internet, right? What's stopping them from crowdfunding it? If the demand is there, the market will flex to meet that demand, that is a basic law of economics that cannot be denied. If you looked into it a little deeper, you'd find out that crowdfunding would save a TON of overhead, and we the people would get a far superior product. Taxation is theft, and my use of the internet has no bearing on that statement. Also I'm pretty sure all the infrastructure is built by corporations, for profit, at the demand of consumers. Why don't you talk about roads like the other government supporters? Then we could better progress along this line of discussion. I would tell you that if there is a demand for a road, and people are willing to pay for that road, it will be built, and no violence or coercion is required.
@Shamalien there is always going to be some kind of force. With a complete absence of authority is some kinda crew rolling people over with violence or a society banding together to overpower that violence and establish there own authority.
is that you speaking, or your programming? Really gotta try and be aware of what you were born into. This game has been running for a long time, you just spawned in... you don't have an omniscient perspective, you are right in the middle of it
Actually... some liberals say yes, rainwater can be stolen... you can’t collect it from your roof and gutters in areas where water is limited as it is everyone’s... so yeah, they do that. I also left a quote on my opinion from Margret Thatcher, who you don’t know because... yeah..., anyway she was important, powerful and had actual experience with socialism and she famously said “ The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
As I re-read your post, perhaps you knew of the rainwater stealing.
Imagine a world were Margaret thatcher isn't just called the Milk snatcher and the guy trying to quote her cannot spell her name right anyway and thinking rain in your gutter is stealing.
I didn’t bother looking up her name, but at least I have my shit together little man.
Pretty sure quoting someone without even been able to spell there name right isn't having your shit together but alright
Well, I can honestly tell you this, I am sitting at my second home which I am at a couple months a year and today searched for an 11 foot teak dining table with seating for 10 for the balcony to compliment the thousand dollar chairs I ordered yesterday. It’s not even and interesting day really. Oh, and I gave Donald some menu and will again next month. Life is very good for people who the world recognizes as having their shit together... and they recognize it by paying them handsomely... people without their shit together need to bank on the government letting them have some leavings from the winners of the country.
Oh and gave Donald money not menu... autocorrect can confuse you I am sure.
Pretty sure telling a kid you have money so you have more shit together since that's basically what you just did is the exact opposite of having your shit together.
No, I just love life this way. You think you are smarter than you are, and if I have learned one thing it is that life will bitch slap you... perhaps you know that and therefore want socialism to protect you since you lack the confidence to go make it happen.
Nah i just don't feel like i wanna be the guy saying this "I am sitting at my second home which I am at a couple months a year and today searched for an 11 foot teak dining table with seating for 10 for the balcony to compliment the thousand dollar chairs I ordered yesterday" to a random kid online
Zero fucks... that’s what life is like here. I don’t care little one what you think. Grow a pair... just don’t try and suck off other people’s success... now that’s the guy I don’t want to be!
Oh and bye now. Off to dinner.
If you don't care what i think then don't tell me. Not hard.
Fuck I always do that *if that's what success means*
What about the person who doesn't want to work? Or he/she just puts in minimum effort? Should they get the same pay as those put in more effort and work longer hours?
Everyone gets paid on the efforts they put on !
A BusinessAll entry-level employees make minimum wageOther employees, who have been there for years, make a little bit more.Management position opensThey promote the person who puts in more effort and shows leadership skills.This is also how Socialism works?
What you're telling me is capitalism in a perfect world, employees lick their way up
@oualid22How does a socialistic business model work then?You wrote that everyone gets paid according to the effort that they put in.
Look socialism pay you on the amount of work you put in and in my opinion for some managers they put way less work than their subordinates and we don't even talk about the owners , and in capitalism you just to have a higher post whether you deserve or not you are paid more I know a lot of companies who their head leader is there because his the son of the owner or she's the daughter it's so sad living in a word like this
@oualid22Now I understand what you are saying and I agree with you in that there are plenty of managers who do as little work possible and try to get the highest pay. In Socialism that wouldn't happen. I suppose that in Socialism they would fire the manager. Or pay the manager a lower wage.From what I understand about Socialism, there is no "owner." The business belongs to the people and they decide how much they get paid, hours worked and other business decisions. Am I correct?
@oualid22The only thing I don't understand is why would someone want to invest their time and money in starting a business, just to have it taken away by the workers?
I'm not sure but in socialism there's no business owner... maybe he'll have a less cut of the revenue... I'm not sure dude
Perfect!!! Old Maggie new a thing or two.
The Major Crimes Unit has noted that I misspelled “Margaret”. My apologies to all of the 19 year old socialists involved in pointing this out, who are afraid they can’t make it in the world without riding other people’s coat tails.
“Ownership of someone else’s labor“ is exactly what exists right now under capitalism.
It’s all been swallowed by the trillion $ bail out gone to billion $ companies.
@VIVANT - Then go make some more money or products and give it to us. I want some free stuff.
The “stuff “ you say people buy freely. Other people have to make. And you are not compensating them for their labor. The value they produce is beyond what they earn. You are in effect STEALING from laborers who are exploited by their employers bc you benefit freely from their unpaid labor. All the workers you say should go get a diff job if they don’t like living in poverty are the people that keep this country running and what allows you to exist minute to minute. Everything we do is bc if day laborers. you believe they should not be paid based on the value they produce hey you have no problem benefiting... You are the thief by your own logic. You also have the most bizarre manner of responding wugh comments that have absolutely nothing to do with what I just said. Every single time. It’s incredible lol
@VIVANT - Employees voluntarily sign an employment contract agreeing to work for a certain wage; what part of this is too hard for you to understand? This is NOT stealing. Socialism, i. e., forcing someone to give their hard-earned income to another person at gunpoint IS stealing.
But any and all forms of control I can see is theft.
tell that to wealthy politicians
This is a very good starting point 😊😊
@VIVANT Why thank you (that was fast). Many countries employ some form of "socialism" in their system of government.
Haha can something be very true. I mean once it is true.. it’s like can you very throw a ball. You can’t half throw one 😛
@VIVANT Well now, aren't you the observant linguist? :) I believe "very true" falls under the English habit of trying to emphasize a point by adding extra intensifiers. The current rage is to misuse the word "literally". :)
I like that, I'm gonna steal this! Which I guess, makes me a Socialist?
@MountAverage lol nice.
The power to tax is the power to destroy.
in the uk kidnapping is termed as ''false imprisonment'' as far as the law goes.