Can you suggest any reading on the Enlightenment? Was the idea of open borders and unlimited immigration born from that?
@ayque Histories by Will and Ariel Durant are highly recommended. They wrote a whole series of books on that period and after. To be fair, their main focus was on the French Revolution, but they are superb about putting it into its' historical and intellectual context.Frankly, just check out Amazon. com. There are whole libraries of books on the subject. You won't lack for choices, that's for sure.As to immigration and open borders, not per se, but it was a logical implication of the Enlightenment. What made you you was that you were a solitary individual born into natural rights under natural law. You were not British or white or part of a singular community but were man as man and thus separation of you and others was contrary to the natural law. Throw in then Adam Smith and the laws of supply and demand, the "invisible hand" and other manifestations of the natural law in the economic realm and you see how we get to open borders and unlimited immigration. They were implicit in the larger principle.
So I know you’re not a fan of simplification but from my very limited understanding, it seems Conservatism sees Government and society as a necessity to restrain man’s natural tendencies which is self driven for survival. Liberalism on the other hand sees Government as a necessity to remove those obstacles in society which prevent man from reaching his full potential as spontaneously rational and kind beings. I accept I still have much to learn.
@ayque Actually, that is a fair generalization. Not bad. Of course, there are various strands of both conservatism and liberalism and qualifications and limitations apply to your general observation in each case.However, tip of the hat. You say you are just learning, but if I may say, you appear to be a VERY fast learner.
Thanks. That’s good to know. It’s taking me a while to get through Burke’s (it’s quite hard to read) but finding it really interesting.
Have you ever visited Bletchley Park on your visits to Britain by the way? Another interesting historical/political site.
Or Benjamin Disraeli‘sHouse?
@ayque Yup, particularly when you throw in the archaic English forms, Burke is a hard read. Worth it, though.As to the other two questions, no on the first - though I would like to. Definitely yes on the second. Loved it.
I’d highly recommend it. It’s a very well designed exhibition.
Had to google civic nationalism but I like what I read. Def not my go-to thought on nationalism, which I see as "divine exceptionalism" which isn't reasonable or logical.
What is socialism? Would you call Social Security socialism?
Nope.Social security is a benefit that a rich capitalist society offers to its own people. In real socialism you're obliged to work.
Socialism just means state run. “Social” security. Europe is filled with Democratic Socialist governments.
no socialism does not mean "state run" lol. it means mandatory redistribution of wealthsocial and socialism have nothing to do with eachother
@007kingifrit what do think social security is? Redistribution of wealth from one generation to the other. “Social”ism.
it isn't enough that it happens to redistribute wealth. it must be explicitly for the purpose of class warfare to be socialistnot that social security isn't still a bad thing that is doomed to fail
@007kingifrit No it doesn't. you're deluded by right wingers complaining about leftist class warfare.
social programs are not socialism, socialism is antagonistic in nature and intends on the redistribution of wealthsocial security just gives you back your own money that you put into it... plus interest
@007kingifrit You can't analyze systems in terms of human opinion. Historians would give you an F.
A govt that is all socialism is bad, and so is a govt all capitalistic. 20th century discovered Democratic Socialism. A balance of the two. Ask your grandparents if they like Medicare.
i can indeed analyze a system based on its intentions
@007kingifrit Intentions denote human interaction. You can't judge system based on that.
America is a welfare nation, it needs to determine which would it rather be. Welfare or Socialist, can not afford to have both.
you just said a non sentence. of course i can judge a system based on its intentions
@007kingifrit I guess you can. But you’re presupposing a political system with a debasement. Your ideology has blinded you.
of course i'm debasing it, its communism its the greatest evil the world has ever known. socialism is bad and we are good for hating it
@007kingifrit Proper historians are scientists who leave ideology at the door. You must analyze people and govt’s without any predispositions. Meaning leave the right wing thoughts out.
under no circumstances are historians ever scientists. archeologists maybe
@007kingifrit It’s an arguable label. Either way anyone would tell you not to bring your personal ideology.
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I would define nationalism vs patriotism is believing in American Exceptionalism, or some divine greatness. That can be devastating.
But having a "divine American exceptionalism" has kept us from bettering ourselves. We're not #1 in education, fighting poverty, etc. I love this country but we have to have a realistic view.
I hear you. Stanford has a definition that I think at least applies to some Americans. The caring for national identity to an extreme level, ie, immigration.(1) the attitude that the members of a nation have when they care about their national identity, and(2) the actions that the members of a nation take when seeking to achieve (or sustain) self-determination.https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nationalism/
I suppose we're mostly arguing over definitions then. But even then it is contextual. Rooting for your national team in a sports game isn't bad, or caring about the history of the nation, art, traditions and such.
Agreed! I just see a lot of ultra nationalists who hate Americans.
pretty sure nationalism gave rise to trump. but its arguable
it sure did, nationalism is evil and causes suffering.
Agreed! Basic definitions are similar. I think nationalism is a bit more extreme in caring for national self identity, most likely ethnicity.
No it’s the same thing, only difference is terminology. Americans try to separate the two because Nazi Germany was Nationalistic so they don’t want to be associated with that party. + Heinrich Himmler was the true evil not really Hitler. Problem with America is that there is no shared culture, or values. It’s a mix of cultures so there will never be true unity or a great standard of living like majority of European nations.
First, Hitler was the mad man behind the curtain. Himmler was a dangerous lackey.Second, most experts say nationalism is asserting your way of life on others. Which in America with out diversity, leads to conflict.
Uh, Himmler headed the SS was obsessed with the occult. He got to enact his beliefs through the administration of Hitler.
And if that is the definition of nationalism doesn’t the US view its way of life as the best and wants to plant seeds of American democracy globally. Just as the Greeks did and as the Romans.
It’s a divine “exceptionalism” nationalists believe. That’s what’s so devastating.
Yes. And trumpian, if i may...
Patriotism: Wales (Welsh and British), Quebec (Quebecois and Canadian). US South (Southern and American).Nationalism: Ireland and Scotland (Irish/Scottish or bust, every English person is the devil!)
whats wrong with faggots?
@OddBeMe that which is deviant breaks the ties that bind us together. diversity makes it harder to compromise and thus have a society together. the gays are at fault of violating the most important rule for mankind's survival "don't identify as anything other than the main group"
@007kingifrit Unless the main group is Neanderthals. Which on Gag, may be the case.
you didn't really respond to anything i said, i understand though it must be painful to even consider the thought that democracy and diversity are not compatible over a long term
@007kingifrit Have you noticed that mixed blood individuals seem to be very beautiful, successful and smart? And that the Irish tradition of keeping the ethnicity pure has produced a cacophony of still births or disabilities. Perhaps diversity in biology and economy is a good thing.
What about it is good?
What do you get by hating your own country?
Being anti nationalism isn’t anti country. How do you define it?
Nationalism means a feeling of love or pride for your own country.