He's being willfully ignorant. he knows full well what's going on in society. People who want feminists to shut up really only say that because they are happy with the way society is and think women should shut up and deal with things as they are
Well, yes, that and they are getting pissed off because patriarchy is not the main for of governance anymore. Entitlement based on ownership of a penis is on its way out. boo hoo.
So...feminism is pretty much a different name for egalitarianism?
Well, doesn't egalitarianism focus on equality in ALL respects, including race, religion, and social status? I'm all for those as well, but feminism is mostly about sex and gender.
true feminists are anti family and lesbian/bi women. ever seen a straight feminist? Didn't think so.
Where do you get these ideas? Did you even read my answer? And yes, I know two people who are straight feminists. I also know two men who are feminists, because they know what feminism is actually about.
true feminism is about women becoming more powerful then men. It's all a conspiracy and women already have every right a man does so there is no point to feminism and I believe the theory that women want to become more powerful and split off from men and be independent/lesbian.
Again, where are you getting this idea? I'm talking to you as an actual person who's involved with the feminist community, telling you that that's not the way we think, and you don't believe me?I don't want to be more powerful than anyone just because I'm a woman. And again, we may have equal rights but sexism is still there, and that's what we're against.
Basically this guy doesn't give a f***. He's not doing a very good job at gaslighting because we see through it
This guy is EXACTLY the reason why feminism is still an important subject, although I do agree that I'd prefer to look at it as egalitarianism as I think social attitudes about men also need to change. You're also right about the extreme feminists, these women are cuckoo crazy and do waaaaay more harm than good to attitudes about equal rights.
So, you're not for comparable worth, affirmative action, affirmative consent, primary aggressor/mandatory arrest, government funding restricted to duluth model organizations, putative father registries, separate tax rates for men, child support for sperm donors and male victims of statutory rape, blocking funding to research male fertility control, palimony, and women's exemption from selective service or any other policy that has ever been advocated by any feminist organization?Or do you think those things are "equal"?And really, I want to know. I'm not an expert on feminism, but I do have a law degree and I keep up with current events. Are there any policies feminists are advocating that you know of and that aren't hostile to the interests of men? I know they like to tell women that their worth isn't defined by what men will do to try to get sex, which is great, but every law they support that I know of is bigoted and hateful.
And please send me a response via personal message. I'm not trying to have a public fight. I'm trying to understand why so many women identify with a movement which in every organized context advocates laws which I'm sure few people support.
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Read "The Myth of Male Power" by Warren Farrell.
obedient wife and motherwhats wrong with that?
Ziggler --There are ground rules everyone follows in life and relationships, but in my family, women are pretty much supposed to do as they are told, unquestioning. There tends to be a lack of mutual respect and application of courtesy and that's where I take issue with being "obedient."As for being a mother, I don't intend to have children, but once again, it's expected of me to "go forth and multiply." I think that's my choice, my family seems to see it differently.
Those who think someone should obey them usually like to lord their power over those who are supposed to be inferior to them. Also, what if a woman is single with no children? We're still women so who should we obey? lol
Do you notice the media is a train wreck in general funny that your avatar is Rihanna who is very sexualized. Yes I view those little girl pageant and wrong that's why I don't watch them guess who mostly does (not men). That one in 4 statistic is a myth and false. Also bad men will always be around who will kill, rape, steal etc etc what do you suggest we do? make a police state? Give me some current day songs who that promotes hatred of women and don't give me ray j or sex songs.
I am a grown woman so yes I enjoy Rihanna. If you wanna talk sexualization, look at the clothes advertised and sold to tweens and teens. Notice how grown girls dressing now compared to 10-20 years ago.The statistic is not false. I dare you to do a poll and ask the women in their lives if they have been sexually assaulted or know anyone who has. the answers may shock you but don't be so dismissive. Do you think the FBI is lying because that's where those stats come from.
U sound ignorant about violence toward women as if you don't care. if you don't care, I understand because that's something that will never affect you. You don't have to care about these issues, but why try to shoot anyone down who talks about it? Plenty of women care because it affects us. Unfortunately "bad men" who do things like this are very common and we live in a society which blames the victim so they get away with it. You can educate yourself if you wish, but something tells me you won't bother
I guess you have never heard 80% of rap lyrics. By you feigning ignorance like we are exaggerating and making things up when it's clear as day what's going on, it just makes you look as if you support & condone the negative things we just spoke about. There is NO WAY you can't see the misogyny hip hop promotes and spreads to society. I'm not going to have a one sided debate with someone who pretends fat meat ain't greasy
Lets just say that one in 4 is true but did you know one in 6 men are raped in their life? Now problem with both of these statistic is many of them where raped as children I would classify that is being different and acttualy more revolting. But the way you and many others frame it as grown women getting raped which happens but you left out many of them being children. Also those slutty cloth would not be around if girls kept buying them. Again who keeps buying rap? not just men many women do.
Yes, one in 6 men are raped. Is it by men or women? the same men who hurt women are most likely hurting men. I don't believe it is all men, many are not like that, but feminists generally speak out about the effects of the behaviors of "the bad guys". If you are not degrading to women then no one is against you, so why are you taking it personally? (this is for all the guys who are annoyed by/against feminism)
Feminist in this country need to speak for women in the sexist countries. You talk about clothes women and girls are wearing but again who buys them? Also its not like black men only listen to rap I went to a black club and everyone man and woman acting a fool. Media gets a lot of crap but the consumers don't get any blame. Easy scapegoat.
So women in the US shouldn't speak for themselves? Why don't you want them to? What are you afraid of?
Most do and they go out and buy rap and slutty clothes why aren't you addressing the economics here? Don't derail the conversation. I did not say anything about women not speaking here I said they should go to other countries and preach equailty instead of sit on their privileged butts and complain about the media meanwhile women across the world are going through hell. Please address the economic here do women like rap? and who are you to say what women can and can't wear? You sound sexist.
Do you think the same women buying slutty clothes and acting like hoochies are the ones calling themselves feminists? They are generally different types of women. Not all women like rap, dress sexy and participate in that culture. You are trying to derail the convo when you talk about women in other countries instead of what women in the US go through. Besides, when a woman is raped every 7 seconds, we have a lot more work to do before we go trying to police the world. Charity starts at home.
So how is it mens fault for non feminist women dressing like hoochies? Also that one in 4 women get raped is a report by a women name koss not the FBI. The FBI said it was 8 percent. Ask yourself have 25% of your female friends been raped or the women in your family. If they told you 7 out of 10 women get raped in America you would believe it. Also does rape automatically mean male supremacy? no. Does America culture promote rape no.
A LOT of women I know have been raped or molested. It's not rare, if that's what you're trying to imply. It's so arrogant of you to speak on the female situation as if you know better. What would you know? You know more than we do even though you don't experience what we do? Okay then, wonder where you got your amazing powers of superior judgment from.
I do find it ironic that you are the same one who said your female friend should focus on racism instead of feminism. You do know that many whites will tell you that you as a black man don't face discrimination and bias as well. It's funny how a member of one oppressed group tries to dismiss another's experiences. Admit that you take pleasure in having male privileged and that's why you don't want things to change. I can already tell but I wanna hear you say it
So 25% of the women you know are raped? You did not answer if rape is male supremacy. Also you do not address that many women who are raped are raped as children but many males get raped as children as well.
I'm a feminist and I don't hate men.
Females already rain supreme.
Women have been made subservient all this time, now that we are getting the same rights men have always had, you feel threatened? That's a shame.
So the desire to resolve and fight for issues that heavily pertain to women, such as letting rapists off easy, is dead?It's kind of strange seeing girls be so anti-feminism. I mean you have a right to be a shamed of the caricatures the media puts out there they are so ridiculous! The media morphs and spins everything, you remember that.Just because a movement has changed does not make it any less of a movement, after all change is nature, just because you don't see women in petticoats...
Picketing out side of the white house anymore does not mean they are not still around.I adore my sisters and I would never want to see them treated unfairly because of their gender. Look around, there's still issues that need to be resolved, and yes in America like trafficking (majority of victims are women) and domestic/rape crimes (again majority of victims are women), and if you look in magazines you see an impossible standard young ladies have to look up to. How many successful business
How many successful business women or head surgeons do you see on TV or magazines for young women to emulate?Instead you get crap like Christina Aguilara, Britney Spears, and other not so awesome role models and photo shopped chicks on make up adds. Yes some of those stars are successfu and talented, but there are a lot of little girls who sadly may not have what the industry is looking for shy why shove these impossible models down their throats.And to be honest I don't want my little sister
Sister to be anything like those poor girls in the magazines, most of them end up with problems anyways. I want my sis to be a surgeon or a supreme court justice instead...Yikes, sorry for the rant. I just had to try to sway you, and I like picking devil's advocate against my expected opinion as a male.Again, sorry for the long rant.
I forgot to mention that I think feminism in modern western society is dead. Issues such as rape, domestic abuse human trafficking etc.. The want to put and end to these disgusting things is so much bigger than feminism because it is not just a female problem it is a worldwide problem. I'm not saying feminists don't exist in my opinion real feminism is the fight for women to be seen as equal to men not better than them and in my experience of western modern day feminism it is full of women claim
And I agree fully, women and men should be equal. You should see stronger female protagonists who can fight for themselves and are smart and do not rely on their looks and men in comic books, television, movies, and such.There should also be more females in the government (and this has improved by far than what it was a while ago).Like I said the media and people get the wrong notion of feminism, they think feminists are trying to rule the world or crush men down, I know a lot of feminists who
claiming that women are better than men or finding reasons why women have it harder than men and then they whine about not being treated equally. I'm a young woman and I think it is utter bullsh*t to blame the media it isn't the media's fault that millions of people can't differentiate between what is realistic and not an it most definitely not the media's fault that a parent doesn't have the heart to tell their daughter she can't sing, dance, act, be a model. From what I see feminism is now a
are not your stereotypical "I hate men rawr! Rule the world rawr! Let's all be lesbians rawr!"But like I said feminism today is fighting to put an end to those degrading beer or axe commercials that gives you a shot of a woman's body in a bikin while cutting off her head and prancing her around as an object. It's fighting to show others that woman can do much more than be a pretty face like perhaps run their own company, or rescue people in firefighting.
Ok, so we just stand there seeing what the media does next, not doing anything about it. Letting people say bitch on air, and showing half naked women on television. I wouldn't want my kids seeing any of that sh*t, but you are right why blame the media? It should be a parents job, but parents can only do so much, the media is everywhere! It's so freaking hard to censor some of the crap you see sometimes. And it is just not the media that sucks there's other issues as well, I mean have you seen
blame game. If you compare how equal men's and women's rights are to the right gay couples have feminism seems pointless. I find feminism hard to understand because I have been brought up in a world where I am equal to a man I am too much of an everyoneist to see feminists as anything but redundant. I'd fight for women's, men's, same sex couples's, pretty much anyone's right to be equal to the person sitting next to them and I think that's how all people should see it rather than women just
Some of the commercials they dish out on childrens networks "You can become a pop star to with bella pop star Barbie! All you have to do is buy this toy and be famous forever" or "Patty poopy pants needs a diaper change, help her and be a wonderful mommy!"On the other hands is boys "Build build build! A new war ship and crush your enemies! RAAAA" or "With this battle axe you will wield the power of the universe!"
fighting for their rights.
Trust me I am with you on that one, I am all for men, women, the gays, and all nationalities to have rights but I understand what feminism is, it's just a branch pertaining to women just like you have gay rights activists and racial equality activists you have feminists. I think none of those are bullsh*t, they just focus on certain things at a time. Believe me I believe in equality for everyone, feminism: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes. Miriam-Webster
It is wrong to censor your children from the media because when faced with the media they won't know how to cope, you are right the ads you are talking about are pretty bad but if you look at is from the advertisers point of view they are just trying to get to their target market/ the people that will make them the money. There is no way to justify the media or really change it (they will do what gets them the richest) but if you educate people in a way to deal with it you erase most of the issue
I mean I think censorship is crude sometimes, like why censor art or contraversial issues, but when it comes to the kids why target them? They don't know any better, this whole generation has grown up on advertisments and I think it does affect someone's upbringing. Yeah go ahead and make millions but why on kids? Why offer them the world in a plastic piece of crap for money. They are innocents and they are a super easy target, I don't let my little sister watch that much TV anymore, I rather
issues that are caused by the media but again I find it difficult to understand how the media could have such a big impact on someone because it doesn't have a huge impact on me because of again how I was raised. You are right about the different types of activists not being bullsh*t but I guess I am just so used to women that call themselves feminists incorrectly it is hard for me to acknowledge that real feminism is still out there.
she read instead. But understand that some kids don't have parents or siblings to really rely on, so what do they have instead? The media. Don't get me wrong the media can be a tool used for good, to educate like the history channel or the art channel. It is a very powerful tool, but right now it is being neglected and kids are seeing so many bad sh*t on it and advertisers and TV people know this. They have so much power.
easy targets easy money, the advertising world is so corrupt and sadly I think it is something we are going to have to learn to live with.
I understand where you are coming from. A lot of people claim to be things and give you the wrong impression, pretending to be Jesus. This again can also be traced to the ridiculous men hating feminist caricatures portrayed in the media.
I agree with you 100% on that but what can we do? people like money far too much to do the right thing.
Hey I am not judging, if you want to give up on that issue, but there are people like me who intend to do something about it or at least try to fight it off. Nothing is impossible, go read a history book you'll see.Other countries (like Quebec , Canada) have band advertisements to children under the age of 13, and not to be a censorship stickler or an anti industry person, I am all for the choice to be successful and have upward mobility, but that does not sound like such a bad idea.
LOL we almost filled up a whole page with our debate
Well it was nice debating with you and you have enlightened me on some things, I hope I did the same for you. :]
Maybe one day I'll become someone important and try to fix this mess :P it was nice debating with you too :)