Water is the oldest material substance in the Universe. What do you think of this?

[SeekerOfTruth007]

A recent MSN article outlines how a team of astrophysicists has discovered that the water in the Universe is much older than Atheist scientists would believe. Now they are saying the water is as old as the Universe itself... exactly what the Bible always said.

In fact, the Bible makes the claim that Water is the first thing that existed, and it even existed before LIGHT.

This means Fred Hoyl's "Big Bang Nucleosynthesis" model is wrong, and he should have stuck with just his first inclination, when he discovered the Carbon Resonance and the Alpha Process, which was "God Did It".

This means there was no Big Bang, and the physical origin of the Universe needs to be explained some other way, even though God literally spoke the Universe into being.

Updates

5 mo

Oh, this also proves the Sun is a First Generation Star, just as I've been saying all along. It was NOT created by a Supernova, and it contains more Nitrogen and Oxygen than previously realized.

Updates

5 mo

So who deleted my scientific posts on my own thread?

That's freaking dishonest and outrageous.

[OneViewpoint]

Once again, the Bible is stupidity because primitive humans came up with these ideas and words, not some imaginary "God". And those primitive humans had zero understanding of basic chemistry or how elements developed over time in this universe.

The oldest material element is hydrogen. A water molecule is 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. Oxygen atoms didn't come along until after the first stars formed and died thereby creating the first heavier elements. So water is a distant second place to elemental hydrogen at best because a crap ton of other heavy elements came out of those ancient star explosions along with oxygen.

And by the way, some of your Christian religiot friends claim the earth is only 6,000 years old. Your religion's credibility on cosmological events is shit.

While some fringe Christian interpretations, especially within certain Young Earth Creationist (YEC) circles, might emphasize water's primordial role as described in Genesis ("deep," "face of the waters"), the assertion that water itself is the absolute oldest thing in the universe isn't a mainstream Christian doctrine, but rather a metaphorical or theological emphasis on creation's watery beginnings, contrasting with scientific understanding of early universe elements (hydrogen/helium). Mainstream Christianity often reconciles faith with science, viewing Genesis poetically, while some YECs focus intensely on the literal "deep" as the initial state of creation, though even they don't usually claim water predates the Big Bang elements.

Key Ideas & Context:

Genesis Narrative: Genesis 1:2 describes the Earth as "formless and empty, darkness over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters" (or "deep"). This "deep" (Hebrew: tehom) is seen by some as primordial water, the first substance God acted upon.

Symbolic vs. Literal: Many Christians see this as a symbolic description of chaos before order, while some literalists focus on water as the initial material.
Distinction from Science: Science posits the universe began with fundamental particles (hydrogen, helium) after the Big Bang, forming stars and galaxies over billions of years, long before Earth and liquid water.

Fringe Views: Very few, if any, major Christian denominations hold water as older than the universe's fundamental components; this idea is more of a niche interpretation emphasizing the primacy of water in Genesis's creation account, not its absolute cosmic age.

In short, it's less a universal Christian dogma and more a specific interpretative emphasis on Genesis's creation imagery.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

You cannot prove that. You especially cannot prove that, because you don't even know how to do the math for nuclear chemistry in star formation. I on the other hand do know how to do it, and I even know how to prove Supernovas can happen for much lighter stars than most Astrophysicists think. I've found 4M stars can produce Type 2 Supernovas. The prevailing theory claims they only happen at 8 to 11+ solar masses.

There is no reason Water couldn't pre-date free hydrogen, because technically water is NOT the sum of just 2 hydrogens and one oxygen atom, it had to lose energy and possibly something else, to become water from hydrogen.

The Big Bang model claims everything came from a single singularity, which is in fact one big thing fissioning to produce smaller things.

Water is needed to form the first stars, because hydrogen and helium do NOT collapse in a cloud without the presence of water-Ice and Methane-Ice.

I posted a 30 minutes long article proving that, but the moderator deleted and stole my work and hid the fact that she deleted and stole my work.

[OneViewpoint]

And you're immediately clinging to bad science and conspiracy theories, while you proclaiming you know better than the world's physics community. Yup Jesus Physics is right and plain old Physics is lies and everyone is out to get you. Uh huh, sounds totally rational. Get back on your meds.

[Staximus]

This guy has delusions of grandeur but is more ignorant than a bag of hammers

[egan3141]

I think the idea of being able to date old things is pretty stupid in the first place. Every time I've heard the process explained, it is full of assumptions that could drastically change the results.

[strateguy632]

Still this adjustment agreed with you 'the assumption was wrong' so it can form 'with less metal than they assumed.'
But yeh history is not science and 'possible' is not fact , neither old guess was fact nor new guess.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

@strateguy632 Atheists do not admit that models are not reality and they are never going to be equal to reality. It is never correct to interpret reality through the model. It is only correct to observe reality and change the model to agree with reality. I posted this problem on another website recently and at least 10 Atheists threw a rant against me, and the moderator there deleted all of my posts because they are an Atheist and can't stand the fact I proved their entire line of reasoning about science dead wrong.

One of the Atheists even had the audacity to claim that Logic doesn't' exist.

Logic is Science, by the way.

[egan3141]

"Science" said almost everyone that didn't get a special shot was going to die to covid. "Science" said the shot was safe AND effective. People claiming what science says doesn't mean shit.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

Radio Dating is fallacious, because radioactive isotopes decay faster if they are in higher concentration or density or at higher temperatures, if it weren't that way, the atomic bomb wouldn't work. Yet the equation Geologists use to date rocks do not take any of that into consideration.

Arthur Eddington's test of General Relativity is fallacious, because it does not take Snell's law for the mass of the Sun's Corona into consideration. And yes, I'm aware Google AI claims it doesn't matter, and that is a lie. In science and engineering, it is NEVER correct to ignore ANY variable.

If you do the correct calculation, Newton's Gravity and Snell's Law is all you need. GR actually gets it wrong when Snell's Law is added.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

The shot saved my life twice. I nearly died from Covid twice.
My mother got so sick from covid her hair fell out and she had to be injected with both the vaccine and human antibodies from someone else who previously survived it.

If you actually saw someone who got sick or died from Covid, you'd STFU.

[egan3141]

My uncle died "from covid". I've also know people that have died from other cold viruses, and flu viruses, and cancer, and accidents, and many other things. I still don't "STFU" over basic things, such as how small of a percent of the human population died to covid, or how many people still caught covid despite having taken 1 to several shots

[SeekerOfTruth007]

You were told ahead of time that vaccines do not and cannot prevent infection. Vaccines prevent major illness, dummy. If not for the vaccine, the death toll would have been ten times higher.

[egan3141]

1) No, WE WERE told the shot would WOULD both prevent infection and help fight against it if we were already infected. We were told that for many many months, if not years.
2) There was barely a death toll in the first place. And most of those deaths were people that died while they had covid, not because of covid. Even deaths caused by physical injury were counted as covid deaths...

[c704710]

​I'm not sure how God did it, I wasn't there to see. But from a chemical standpoint, presuming that chemistry works the same now as it did in the beginning, Helium Hydride, Molecular DiHydrogen, and even Molecular TriHydrogen are much more likely to occur first than Dihydrogen Monoxide. Even if we invoke how (un) common substances are in the universe, those three molecules are the most likely to exist first.

But there's even a bigger problem. In order to get H2O, you need the O. And using a model based on Simplicity, it ranks thus:
​1. Hydrogen
2. Helium
​3. Lithium
​4. Carbon
5. Oxygen

If we consider simplicity and rarity together, it works out slightly better in Oxygen's favor:

1. Hydrogen
2. Helium
5. Oxygen

That, would seem to get us a lot closer to the idea that water was first. If we ignore that H and He can form molecules all by themselves. We still have the problem of the origin of Oxygen. God designed a universe where the only place Oxygen is manufactured, is in Stars. This means, Lithium, Carbon, and maybe less than a tablespoon of Beryllium the entire known universe, have to exist first. These will combine with other elements to form Carbon Monoxide, Lithium Hydride, Carbon Chains, before H2O

[strateguy632]

Misquoted see pictures if true then scientists and bible were both wrong.

Need fine print small letters

A million years after' is earlier but not first.

[strateguy632]

Also in the bible heaven was 'in the beginning ' before water unless we mess with interpretations.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

The moderator deleted and stole 4 posts of mine explaining several related phenomenon, and this is more complicated than just that article alone. I was about to debunk another recent "discovery" using actual mathematics, but the moderator deleted stuff that took me 30 minutes to write, and then banned for for chewing her out, which I do not regret.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

For example, she deleted a post where I cited Newton's proof that Gravitons do not exist, and she deleted a post where I explained Stellar Nucleosynthesis and explained that stars do not and CANNOT form from pure hydrogen and helium, because those gases expand faster than gravity even in the modern universe, never mind the ancient universe which was supposedly so much hotter than today's universe.

I actually know how to do the math to prove that formally, but I was writing in simple terms anyone should be able to understand.

[Novemberr_]

Quark-gluon plasma has been initially created at first and they are made of the most fundamental particle of the matters which is vibrating strings and branes as they have oscilliated through different energy. Then they transformed to present day substance body.

[RedTiefling]

String theory is just that, a theory.

You are correct about the quark-gluon plasma, but that stuff existed for moments before dissolving into rare elements and hydrogen.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

That's unobservable and therefore unprovable. Even in particle accelerators right here on Earth, they've never actually directly seen a quark. They are 'inferred' by decay of other particles.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

@RedTiefling Physicists cannot even agree on how many Quarks make up a proton. The most popular model says 3 quarks make up a proton, but they've always held an alternative model which says 5 quarks are needed to make one proton.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

Big things are not necessarily made of "smaller things". There is no ontological reason for that to be the case.

Even in the Big Bang Model, everything came from a single infinitely dense and infinitely hot SINGULARITY. Thus the Big Bang Model proposes that all small things came from one much bigger thing, and you don't pretend not to be able to understand that.

Many physicists are rejecting the Big Bang Model and also rejecting Dark Matter and Dark Energy, because the entire system of reasoning around the BB has become completely unreasonable.

[OneViewpoint]

You're lying again. or displaying your lack of understanding. Dark matter and dark energy have always been science sticking a "we don't know placeholder" in the standard model for convenience. No one has ever pretended to sell dark matter coffee cups or an engine that runs on dark energy. It's an admission that something is going on but we don't understand what it is. Or, the standard model needs to change. None of that means we don't know where the fundamental elements came from.

But like every brain damaged religious zealot, you start with an answer and contort reality to fit your beliefs.

[Kaneki05]

You do realize what makes water had to exist before water right? Therefore zero possibility that water was the first thing to exist and if you don't understand that then yeah keep to your bible because science would never be for you anyway.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

You don't understand the Big Bang is one big thing becoming all smaller things, which is absolutely the opposite of your line of reasoning.

[Kaneki05]

Water existing after the atoms to make it is honestly common sense but the fact you don't know this and even try to speak of the big bang is hilarious so thank you, good job.

Honestly I'll never understand why religious believers pretend to know science when they don't, it don't even benefit them because religion is about faith you can't have faith if something is a fact defeats the whole purpose but yet here we are.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

I don't believe in Faith. Try again. I only operate on factual evidences, and I'll tell you again I've seen the real God and three of his angels face to face. One of them even healed my sister's Stage 3 Hodgkins Lymphoma.

You can rant like a titty baby and try to deny that and call me crazy, but youa re the one without a conscience and a darkened mind.

I have a MENSA IQ of 187. I'm smarter than the people who invented the Standard Model. I'm smarter than them by 2 or 3 standard deviations.

Get over it.

It's a MODEL and the first thing you are supposed to do with a MODEL is reject it. You people worship a MODEL, which is idolatry.

[Kaneki05]

Uh huh and mine is 190 maybe that's why you don't even understand water lmao

[SeekerOfTruth007]

Water is the most complex molecule in the universe. It has at least 10 ice states that I know of, and at least two metallic states that I know of. Try again. I know more about Water than you know about anything.

[Kaneki05]

So complex that you don't understand that atoms came before water lmao

[SeekerOfTruth007]

You don't understand the Big Bang is all existence in one particle and it came before quarks. It was not made of anything. Therefore, there is no ontological reason for small things to make up big things.

[Kaneki05]

Congrats smart dude that still don't solve you thinking water existed before even the universe if you somehow think it does in whatever backwards thinking you got then you can say that about anything. Hey who's to say I didn't exist before the universe? Would make sense based on your thinking lol

[Kaneki05]

Also if you can have something without the things that make it then what's the need in god? Funnily enough goes more into a hawking's theory which is true but still with the laws of the universe but I assume you don't care about that.
So without that... and just having things exist without the need of things to make it what's the point in god even further because simply everything can just exist without a reason or atoms they're made of right?

[SeekerOfTruth007]

Order doesn't come from nothing without a motivating principle of intelligence. It's that simple. We know this due to the Law of Entropy.

Stop being daft and stop lying.

[Kaneki05]

Nope by your logic water can exist without the need of it be made up of things therefore does not need order or intellect in anyway to be made as it can simply exist if nothing is needed to make it.
Also you can't randomly pick one law if you aren't following all the others that exist for you to make up some backwards argument for yourself.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

You don't get to make the rules, dummy, God gets to make the rules.

[Staximus]

Trying to explain things we don't yet fully comprehend by attributing them to a fictitious god is the very definition of ignorance.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

I've actually seen God face to face and seen at least 3 ranks of Angels face to face.

You are so closed-minded that you are rejecting obvious evidences and reject eye-witness testimony no matter what. There are millions and millions of people who report supernatural experiences in particular meeting Angels or God himself, and yet you atheists continue to harden your hearts. That's your fault, not mine.

The entire Universe obeys Logically derived laws. Where did the Logic and the Laws come from if not designed by an intelligent Creator? You cannot even remotely produce an alternative hypothesis to Creation, because there is no sane way for Logic to exist without a THINKING MIND.

[Staximus]

Listen pally, if I didn't see "God" or "thanks of angels" when I was on enough acid to fry 4 people, what the hell kind of drugs were you on? 3 ranks of angels? What the hell are you even talking about? You're delusional. Were you under the influence of drugs, or under the influence anesthesia at the hospital (drugs), had a fever or brain infection, or a head injury? If not then maybe you should visit a psychiatrist.

[Staximus]

Ranks of angels

[SeekerOfTruth007]

I rest my case. You're a lunatic and a false accuser. You all are lunatics and false accusers.

Thanks for proving my point, Atheist. You're a Damned Liar and need to be instiutionalized.

[Staximus]

Were you or were you not under the influence of anesthesia, drugs, head injury, or infection\fever?

[SeekerOfTruth007]

I have never done any drugs or alcohol in my life, because only idiots do that stuff. Try again, liar.

[Staximus]

Answer the question

[Staximus]

Were you or were you not under the influence of or subjected to anesthesia, head injury, or infection\fever?

[SeekerOfTruth007]

I already told you, dumbass, the answer is "no".

GOD SPEAKS TO ME AND I LISTEN.

[Staximus]

You're full of shit or delusional

[SeekerOfTruth007]

No you are. God is real, whether you admit that or not. You're delusional for thinking everything came from nothing for no reason whatsoever. You should be institutionalized along with the rest of Atheists.

[Staximus]

God speaks to you? Tell that to a psychiatrist and let's see what happens buddy

[RedTiefling]

Hydrogen was first. The elements are organized from left to right based on the amount of protons in the atom.

Hydrogen has 1 proton, stars can fuse hydrogen into helium which has 2 protons and so on up until iron.

[SeekerOfTruth007]

Unlike you, I actually know the math and I can prove Stars work slightly differently than the Standard Model predicts. Stars do not "burn hydrogen till hydrogen runs out then change to helium". They burn in spherical shells of heavier and heavier atoms. In fact, I'm pretty sure I can prove the Sun is already fusing Helium right now, and it is definitely fusing Carbon, Nitrogen, and Oxygen in the CNO process, or rather half of the CNO process.

The way they teach this stuff in High School and College is a close approximation, but it is technically WRONG, and technically wrong is ultimately "Just Wrong".

I have at times derived the "missing mass" of the Crab Nebula Pulsar and explained that the Super Nova actually produced Anti-Matter and annihilated the "missing Mass". The present theory is that it was produced by "Electron Capture", but Electron Capture produces 100 times too little energy to explain the Supernova. It takes an anti-matter synthesis explosion to do that, and I know the long math to prove that too. I've actually self-published it about ten years ago.

[Sal_Monella]

Hydrogen is the oldest material substance in the Universe.

[Sal_Monella]

The first Genesis account of Creation is metaphorical, written by "journalists" who did the best they could.

The second Genesis account of Creation, The Garden, starts in 2:1. Adam was created 3 days before mankind.

[Sal_Monella]

And yet, Cain feared being killed when he was evicted from The Garden. By whom? Mesopotamians. Which suggests Garden Time was different.

[Anonymous]

That's not true, helium is. There could be no water because oxygen came way later.

[RedTiefling]

You're almost correct. Hydrogen was first with one proton, helium has two protons.

Hydrogen and oxygen were generated from stars, along with every element up to iron.

[AngryCarl2]

Every part of what you wrote here is nonsense.

[beefcakebradybatson]

Water is one of the few things older than Dick Van Dyke !!!

[NathanDavis]

so, water first... then turned into wine?

[Anonymous]

Balderdash.

[strateguy632]

Healthy skepticism but actually from
University of Portsmouth in the U. K.