Are you familiar with this paradox?

[Juxtapose]

I would give credit to the person who showed me this but due to rogue moderators who would classify this as a member post I cannot. You know who you are though and you can take credit in the comments, I will let people know by replying to you and telling them that you are legit.

Anyways though, the picture really explains itself unless you need some reading glasses. What do you guys think of this? Seems like pretty rock solid logic to me!

Updates

1 y

I am very surprised to see how hard theists are struggling with the idea of what omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence really means when paired with perfect good.

If God can do anything and is perfectly good then the universe would be perfect with no evil. If God is incapable for whatever reason, I don't care what it is, it is not worthy of being called a deity. If God has the power to make a perfect universe but simply chooses not to? It is evil itself and you're being ruled by a monster.

Updates

1 y

Rogue moderators at it again:

i.ibb.co/pfn1s39/Screenshot-20240711-142452.png

[NaultD]

I more if God exists he left to get milk and cigarettes and left us to our own devices. for the most part we did pretty good. Pushing the limits of humanity.

Resting on our laurels and kicking the can down the road was and is our worst sin.

[Juxtapose]

That's a lot more believable than some God that is both all powerful and all pure good but somehow lets the world suck.

[NaultD]

That's why I like existental philosophy where you as an individual have radical freedom. So much freedom we end up scared of it when we shouldn't be.

https://youtu.be/3bQsZxDQgzU?si=2qBi5doDsPh_zqAB

[NaultD]

https://youtu.be/BBJTeNTZtGU?si=Sq0p90_DlIMMMYe0

[NaultD]

Just because their isn't all knowing father to guide you is a reason to be a bad person.

https://youtu.be/G-kSu2QIxUs?si=e9xks0pQrUANp-6-

What does it to be truly free.

[MacDaddyRico]

What kind of loving god creates evil and lets it run amuck on Earth?

A sadistic practical joker!

[Juxtapose]

This is so easy and I don't understand why religious people don't get this.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

This is what you're supposed to study the Bible and meditate to try to understand. He obviously wasn't the first person to think of this concept. In fact, understanding this (to me anyway) is kinda the entire point of Christianity.

First let's handle some important assumptions we're making here about the Bible since they're so hotly debated. This is all based off the idea that:

The Bible is not to necessarily be taken literal. It is assembled off the assumption that the reader understands its history.

Not everything in the Bible was originally there, not everything was "guided by the hand of God " some of it is just stuff someone said, some of it is adulterated text that was added because it was in a language almost no one could read or speak for over 1500 years

My final belief about the Bible is the most important one which is that religion is a culmination of lies put together in such a way that the longer you study it, the closer you get to the truth. Because the bibles message is too profound for the average person to jump right in.

This chart makes all sorts of logical slip-ups like for instance, who said evil was so bad in the first place?

When you're a kid and you fall off your bike it seems like the end of the world the first time it happens. Then you get hurt for real and understand it wasn't so bad.

If the soul goes on forever after this small, short life. Why would God do anything other than laugh at us for how silly we are crying over an inconceivable small amount of time in our souls existence.

And humans are the ones who insist that God can just straight up make up left and backwards yellow. I don't think this is what God means by being all powerful. I believe this misconception is largely because of people's lack of verbiage (language) available and understanding that even though God exists, we live in a scientific world. It's not magic.

Also, who said God is only one person? The Bible leaves many hints that God is a collective. An average of something which doesn't exist at any one place or time.

But I'll stop there before I write another 2k words

[Juxtapose]

Evil is bad because people like a friend of mine were raped for 9 years and kept in a closet, naked and left to piss and shit in there when she was not being raped or pretending to be normal at school. That sounds very naive of you to say that evil is not bad.

Why would people complain? Because we are not playthings. Just because you are powerful does not mean you get to subjugate us and not hear any complaints about it. You are not a good God if you treat people like this.

Well what you describe me that God is not worthy of being called God because he is not omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. All of those three things mean that God is absolutely flawless, nothing can stand in his way and if he is pure good as well then there is no reason why the universe should not be purely good.

I don't really care if it's one person or not, if it is responsible for creation it has full responsibility.

[Juxtapose]

But at least you get the concept of me saying God can make backwards yellow. A lot of people get stuck on that and can't comprehend it because their worldview is so small and they are incredibly unimaginative. Thank you for getting that.

[Telekinetic-Potato]

It's because there is a reason for all of it. We're all here for a reason. I'm sorry about your friends situation by the way. Very sad.

God never really claimed to be without flaw. He's even sort of apologised in the Bible for going too far. Whether that was added in by the catholic church or not who knows.

It's not that evil isn't bad, it's that this world exists because of something very difficult to explain. A photographer might think of it as contrast but an electrician would call it potential.

All existence has a positive, negative or neutral charge. We exist in a sea of energy which depending on how it vibrates, creates photons, fields, electricity, atoms etc.

The reason these things can exist is because of the difference between the positive and negative charges and that's called potential. It dictates everything.

You can't have good without evil. People can't have great lives without other people having one's that are terrible in other ways. Because all energy is connected. When one part of the wave is a trough there is a crest someplace else. And it will manifest in ways that aren't always immediately clear.

In my opinion, we're not here to suffer or to live great lives. We're here to understand other people and gain empathy. And to understand that we are all capable of being each other. Everything that exists in that rapists being exists in every man, woman or child that has ever been or will be born.

You and I have the same potential to have turned out like the worst version of Hitler or the best version of Alexander the great.

The Bible teaches not to hate the rapist. To ensure justice is served but to do so from a place of love than hate. Because even hating a person like that is the same as hating yourself.

[DrPepper12]

God claimed to be the alpha and the omega. Thats a pretty sweeping claim!

[Telekinetic-Potato]

@DrPepper12 I'm not really sure what that's supposed to mean. I never said anything about Andrew tate

[DJB72]

It's a common enough issue.

The real issue is it starts from a false premise.

God created humans with Free Will, even though He knew we'd screw up. He didn't and still doesn't want automatons.

An automaton can't love. And God's primary Self is that He is Love.

So if God is Love and to Love requires Free Will then He had to not only create us with the capacity for Good, but also for the capacity for evil.

Satan's gamble when he rebelled against God was that God's Love would be greater than his need for Justice. So he tried to trick his way out of Justice. But God still requires Justice. And the penalty for breaking God's Law is Death.

So God made a way by becoming human Himself in the form of Jesus to live a perfect life and die an undeserved Sinner's Death. The result being that Jesus, Son of Mary, Called "Christ" or "Anointed one" was able to reclaim this World. Something nobody else before or since could do. Not Confuscious, Not Buddah. Definitely not Muhammad or Joseph Smith.

Today our society - especially the liberal ideology - tries to sit in judgement over God. The issue is that there has to be a point outside the created that provides a reference for what defines "Good" and "Evil". A Moral Absolute.

Otherwise, how do we know it's "wrong" to have sex with a child or kill someone?

How can we know what a straight line is if we've never seen one?

The answer is simple: because the one who created us told us while He fashioned us in our mother's uterus.

[DrPepper12]

God is love? Reellleee? I guess once you get past the genocide, incest, slavery, plagues, murder, misogyny, kill your kid - JK!, love me or ill punish you forever... Then yeah. Loving god. Give me a break

[Kelly6]

Yes God knows every evil that will happen in time line.

There is evil in out timeline because we don't know what would be outcome without this evil.

There is one story of Moses.

Moses asked god to make a blind guy that Moses saw unblind.

God said okay and fixed his eyes, as soon as his eyes were fixed he started strangling a kid who was sitting next to him.

So God asked Moses, do you see why some thing are meant to be certain ways.

Back to your question.

If there was no evil in this timeline, then it would be heaven

[Juxtapose]

If you are all powerful, all knowing, all present and purely good then the universe would be perfect without any evil or suffering whatsoever. You would not need evil or suffering in your creation because you are good and you are all powerful, you can make things however you want. Things don't have to be a certain way, they are *YOUR* way because you are God and you can bend reality to your whim, absolutely. You can exist in a time paradox, you can make a boulder you can simultaneously lift and not lift, etc.

If God has limitations, it is not worthy of being called God.

If God does not have limitations but still let's evil exist? Then you are being ruled by a monster.

[meepmeeperton]

I mean the idea would be that God knows about evil and can prevent it but doesn’t because he gave humans free will. Humans have to choose to be good in the face of evil. A world without free will or evil doesn’t really make sense. The point of free will is the freedom to choose good or evil. If there is only good then there’s no real need for free will anyway.

[Juxtapose]

Look man if you claim to be all powerful and are at all limited in what you can create then you are not actually all powerful my guy.

You could give me omnipotence without any superior intelligence compared to my human intelligence and I could make a universe right now with both free will and no evil. You know how? Out of all the choices available, evil doesn't exist. It's like a color you don't see, you don't even fathom it. There are concepts that could exist in other universes that we cannot fathom but it doesn't make them mandatory for existence because clearly we live without those things ourselves.

[Juxtapose]

And a God could do things that doesn't make sense as well because it is all powerful. It could create a bolder it could both lift and not lift at the same time. It could create time paradoxes and things we can't even imagine.

But at the end of the day, you cannot call yourself purely good and all powerful if you don't create a perfect universe without evil. You just can't get around that.

[meepmeeperton]

I get what you're saying but I also thing part of the idea of "all powerful" is that it is beyond human logic thought-experiments. I don't think we could understand an all powerful being, and I don't think any rules we could make for it would really apply.

As for the creating a perfect universe without evil, God technically did do that in the Bible with the garden of Eden, but Eve got tricked by Lucifer to eat the fruit which screwed everything up for humanity. Sure you could delve into why would god let Lucifer exist, why would he make it possible for Eve to eat the fruit, etc. but that kind of misses the whole point and lesson from that story and just makes the Bible about logical semantics.

There will be some logical flaws with the Bible or concepts in the Bible that you can tear down logically like that, because it's an extremely old book. But at the end of the day the core lessons and morals of the Bible have stood the test of time.

[Juxtapose]

No that's a cop out. If you are a all-powerful and all-knowing being you can make an inanimate object understand you because your God and fuck any restrictions. That is not an excuse.

You can't blame Lucifer, Eve or whoever because whenever God created those creatures he saw the future and created them anyway. He could created them to be perfect and he deliberately made them so they would fuck up because he can see the future.

The Bible is not a good book of morals, it is contradictory.

[Juxtapose]

*you're God

[BetaBucks]

This seems easily explainable with a "god allows evil to drive humans towards a goal that only that god knows and understands" or even a "to resolve who belongs in that god's afterlife for eternity or who belongs in their version of hell for eternity."

[Juxtapose]

I find this really easy for me to explain as well.

A perfect being that is all powerful and all good would not create a complicated, bullshit world where people have to suffer and go through all kinds of shit. It would just create a perfect world without evil and yes, free will could exist within that world rather easily. You don't need evil to have a functional universe, you can make the universe however you want because you have the cheat code to everything and reality is your complete and utter bitch.

Why test people when you already know the future because you are omniscient? That doesn't make sense. You literally see the future before you even create the object you are seeing the future for. You know everything, you can do everything and you are everywhere at once. How could you fuck that up so badly and create a universe as shitty as this?

You're either not a being worthy of being called a God or that is all fiction and God is not real. Or God is a evil piece of shit!

[BetaBucks]

For your first paragraph, these are only your feelings about what a perfect being would do. You can't speak on behalf of one.

How would we know why anyone needs to be tested? How could we know what the point of it all is? "Knowing" doesn't mean the future, because the future hasn't happened. All-knowing is the present and everything before.

Last paragraph is back to your opinion again, but this doesn't disprove my two arguments against the image

[Juxtapose]

If you have all the information then you can accurately predict the future. You can predict where every raindrop will fall and every thought every single human being will have.

[BetaBucks]

I disagree, because the future does not exist yet. And allowing free will, allows for variables and also allows one's own choices to determine their fate. If you were to look at life as a sort of purgatory, with heaven and hell being the final destination, then that purgatory is the opportunity for people to actively choose their own fate. I mean, I don't actually believe any of this, obviously. But it's definitely one way to look at theism.

[Juxtapose]

The future doesn't need to exist yet for you to know what it is.

An all powerful being could easily create a universe where Free Will and a lack of evil exist simultaneously pretty easily. God could create a universe with time paradoxes, boulders so heavy he could have lift them but he could also with them at the same time, gravity would be yellow, up would be bark, TV would be supernovas. It doesn't have to make sense to you, God has all the cheat codes and can make the universe any way he wants.

If you are all powerful and all good you have no excuses, period. You either create a universe or admit you are not all good or you are not all powerful.

[Juxtapose]

*create a perfect universe

[DrPepper12]

The best part is if all powerful god vanquishes satan, as he allegedly has the power to do, the game is over! The coyote caught the roadrunner and the curtains come down. The end!

[Juxtapose]

^^ this is the person the credit goes to.

It's almost like the guy described in the Bible is bored and mentally like the Greek gods with a lot more power but not the wisdom to back it up.

[SotiCoto]

The only snag is that Evil doesn't exist...

But I'm pretty sure that 100% of Theists believe in Evil too, so it captures its intended audience at least.

Meanwhile I classify Morality as just the lite version of Religion, and would purge it along with the rest.

[Juxtapose]

Evil is when you put yourself above everything to the point where your slightest whim is worth fulfilling even if somebody is tortured horribly for it because people don't matter at all.

Good is when you put others above yourself.

Generally that's the case. It's pretty easy to understand.

[MisterWack]

Never saw that paradox though it does raise questions to those of faith…

[andreasderjuengere]

This one is incomplete in its beginning.
(evil exists -> no)
This entire thing is placed in the human world and ignores the divine position, which likely rates 'facts' differently.

[Juxtapose]

It's pretty simple. If you claim to be pure good and have infinite power then you have no excuse for not creating a perfect universe. Absolutely none.

[andreasderjuengere]

Perhaps God does not WANT it perfect. Why would he allow to be bossed around by humans with their ideas?

[RavVid]

I can only see one hard loop in this. I think there should be more.

[Juxtapose]

What do you mean?

[RavVid]

Ah in the bottom central box 'Them why didn't He' goes to 'with freewill but without evil' if the answer is free will and Yes. So we will loop on those boxes for all eternity.

This is the first time have seen a paradox flow charted (and I like it a lot for that alone) but I think a paradox is a loop you can't break out of i. e. can never resolve which is sort of the definition of a paradox..

[Juxtapose]

I think the purpose of this is to show people that the explanations and apologetics for Yahweh ultimately don't hold water.

[RavVid]

I'm happy with that. It has always been a problem that when something bad happens why did God allow it if all powerful etc etc.

Still I am happy to now know a paradox is a hard loop in a flow chart, so thank you for that.

[Jamie05rhs]

God created a perfect universe. Man chose to sin. Therefore evil entered the world. It's really not that hard to understand.

[Juxtapose]

Come on dude don't be silly, if you are all powerful and all knowing you can see into the future rather easily so you are responsible for the outcome of the universe. God would have created man knowing what they would do ahead of time, God would have created Lucifer knowing what he was going to do ahead of time and so on. You can't blame humans.

[Jamie05rhs]

@Juxtapose You're assuming that God wants absolute control. He doesn't. He just wants respect; but he wants it to come willingly -- not forced.

[Juxtapose]

Well fine, God can do that whole little respect thing but let's get a perfect universe first so people don't have to get raped or be born with horrible mutations and die horrible deaths.

[Juxtapose]

If you are all powerful you can simultaneously create a universe that has free will and no evil.

[OddBeMe]

Religionists and logic never gone well together.

Like Trumpists and logic.

[Juxtapose]

It's a bit pedantic but you should really say "theists" instead of "religionists."

Actually what would be more accurate in this case would be to say that faith and logic never go well together.

[Juxtapose]

And Donald Trump is fucking awesome he is the absolute best let's make him God Emperor for life and have him take over the entire universe 😂

[Juxtapose]

Warhammer 40K style.

[OddBeMe]

I like religionists. Pushes the organizational aspect which gets lost in the term “theists”. Joel Osteen has a multi mill mansion from religionists. Not just theists.

[Juxtapose]

Hey man, God is all powerful but he really needs your money xD

[OddBeMe]

That’s orgs doing that. Not theists. Thats what religionist will always be my term.

[Dongie]

Even I can answer everyone of those. That's old devil trickery. Bring something fresh.

[Juxtapose]

I don't want a vague dismissal that provides no substance, I want you to actually address those points in a way I can understand. They are very valid criticisms of Christianity and how they view their god.

[Juxtapose]

You're free not to of course but then the seed of faith will not be planted in me if you are truly right.

[Dongie]

Shoot

[Dongie]

You ask me why this and that.

[Juxtapose]

Well you see that chart I posted. Start from the top, what is wrong about it?

[Juxtapose]

Or rather, where in the chain is the logic broken and can you explain why?

[Dongie]

Everything is wrong. To begin with, you don't begin to know the ways of God. He tells us, or Christ told us their ways are not ours. To say at the bottom, if He knows who fails and doesn't. So what, we don't.

[Dongie]

Create without evil. He did. Freewill brought that on. He new Lucifer would do what he did. God doesn't break his own rules. He's perfect. But he did not give him an El name.

[Juxtapose]

We can use basic logic to still see if a Supreme being makes sense.

If God is good then why did he create evil? Why did he allow it to happen?

If God is in any way restricted from stopping evil even though he wants to? He is not all powerful so why call him God? At this point you are talking about a particularly powerful alien that is not a supernatural creature.

Why test us when you already know the outcome? That doesn't even make sense. You are taking beings that are predestined to fail because of how you created them and then you are blaming them for it as well. That's pretty fucked up. You created these beings knowing what would happen.

[Juxtapose]

And if God is capable of stopping evil but simply chooses not to for whatever reason? God is not good in any sense of the word.

[Juxtapose]

If you're all powerful you should be able to create a universe with free will that simultaneously does not have evil. That would actually be pretty easy to do if you are all powerful. I could do it with my intelligence level right now if you gave me omnipotence, I would not even need to be all knowing in order to do that. It's so easy.

You create living creatures and an environment that is positive that does not necessitate death, suffering or any of that. You are not bound by the laws of nature because you have all the cheat codes and you can make reality your bitch and do whatever you want.

If you are restricted by reality or external rules, you are not worthy of being called a deity.

[Dongie]

To easy. He will take an item meant for evil and bring good out of it. God has nothing and nobody worthy to prove anything to. That's why he had His profits. All knowing? He, in the end, will throw His feet up and say smoke on what My Son has done. He will have restored everything to a greater glory without breaking his own rules like just killing all demons and devils.

[Dongie]

God doesn't allow himself to gaze upon evil. He can't stop it without breaking His rules. He wins and does so with more than style and Grace.

[Juxtapose]

Evil should not exist in the first place though. And creating a universe with both free will and no evil would be trivial with omnipotence. Are you saying God is not omnipotent? If he is, then why is he unwilling to create a world without evil how I described?

[Dongie]

You like? Or is there more? You know Darwin renounced his stupid theory and came to Christ in his aged days.

[Juxtapose]

We're going to be talking a lot so I will quote you so you know what I am talking about and we can avoid confusion.

"God doesn't allow himself to gaze upon evil. He can't stop it without breaking His rules. He wins and does so with more than style and Grace."

"He can't"

Then your God is straight up not worthy of being called a deity because it has a restriction. A being with unlimited power, unlimited knowledge and being present everywhere at once would be capable of whatever you can imagine and more. Creating a world with free will and no evil would be trivial with omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence.

[Dongie]

Then there could not be free will.

[Dongie]

Lucy had free will. He felt to proud to bow to God's created image, us. So he tricked her, he followed and gave dominion to satan.

[Juxtapose]

"You like? Or is there more? You know Darwin renounced his stupid theory and came to Christ in his aged days."

As much as I would love to get into evolution and how it is backed by the fossil record, DNA evidence and so on, I will focus on the philosophical aspect of this discussion.

"Then there could not be free will."

Nonsense. If you are God you can both create a rock you can lift and cannot lift at the same time. God being all powerful means it could even operate within paradoxes with ease.

God being all powerful means it could create a universe with both free will and no evil. You don't need evil to have free will and even if you did, God has the cheat code to everything so to say and can make reality his bitch. He can do whatever he wants just by willing it, there is no excuse to not have a perfect universe unless you are evil as shit.

[Juxtapose]

"Lucy had free will. He felt to proud to bow to God's created image, us. So he tricked her, he followed and gave dominion to satan."

Any being worthy of God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. Unless you want to go to the lowly level of the Greek gods where they were pretty damn weak.

So as god, you already know what Satan is going to do before you even create him. You don't need to create Satan the way you did. Reality in no way restricts you whatsoever. You can create a universe that violates the laws of gravity and thermodynamics because you create your own laws. Literally nothing can stop you from doing whatever you want because you are supreme, you have absolute control over everything and along with that absolute control comes absolutely responsibility and absolute accountability. If God didn't like that then he would have created a universe without such things.

[Juxtapose]

*Any being worthy of being called God

[Dongie]

Adam and Eve. You think God so puny he would allow a being that He created to force anything from Him. He laughs. Jesus said in Revelation. When He returns He is bringing our redemption with him.

[Dongie]

Greek gods were the watchers. Fallen angels.

[Juxtapose]

"Adam and Eve. You think God so puny he would allow a being that He created to force anything from Him. He laughs. Jesus said in Revelation. When He returns He is bringing our redemption with him."

There doesn't need to be a redemption or any flaws in the universe whatsoever if you are omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent.

[Dongie]

Open your mind to the fact that everywhere you look for God, you are seeing the trees instead of the forest.

[Juxtapose]

I need something much more precise, I need specific questions answered before the idea of a God can make sense. These questions I am asking being left unanswered will never bring me to God because I am not one to have faith I am one to have reason.

[Juxtapose]

If you are perfect and you have all the power to do anything you want, why create a flawed universe?

Boredom? A God would never suffer from petty emotions or urges meant to motivate animals.

Because God was incapable of doing better? Then why call it God?

[Dongie]

You're coming at God with your mind made up. I love you, dude. God is if you think about it, incomprehensible. Thus, Jesus says our ways are not your way. Try to imagine you are God. He tells us He is a jealous God. He wants our complete devotion because He is worthy of it. He can not tell a lie he can't break His rules. Then the dickheaded devil could say," eeeh, saw that". But he could vaporize everything He created in an instant but He's more than game. He is all powerful. If I were all powerful, the last thing I would feel compelled to do is prove it at the non appointed time. It will be proven, and every eye that's alive plus those of the 1st resurrection will see His Son coming. I know this. I've been involved in a couple of incidents that are proof Jesus is who He is.

[Dongie]

You see, God let me, for some reason, have the proof you seek. I am beyond faith. I know. I still practice faith for say my sister being healed of breast 'C'. But as far as the existence. I know.

[Juxtapose]

Claiming God is incomprehensible is a cop out though. God still cannot answer for these paradoxes because if you are perfect and all powerful nothing will stand in your way and there should be absolutely no excuses to doing anything but perfection and absolute good.

This universe fucking sucks and if it was made by a God it was made by an amateur. Babies are born to form, suffer and die. There are little girls born only to be sex slaves their entire lives and be brutally tortured to death. No being of even the slightest shred of decency would allow this to go on unless they were powerless to stop it.

If God wants to say that he is just too complicated for us to understand, then that is in fact a limitation placed upon him. God should be able to perfectly communicate himself fully to even objects that are not alive because "fuck you" God can do whatever he wants and "fuck you" he has all the cheat codes.

By "fuck you" I mean to convey the attitude that God has no restrictions, not any ill will towards you or directing that towards you at all. I hope that makes sense.

[Dongie]

Perfectly. I know the world sucks. I've said terrible things to God. Many, many times. It's much worse than that little tantrum. It's not the religion it's hearing and talking to that Being you refuse to understand.

[Dongie]

Plus, incomprehensible is not a cop out. Do you think I or anybody could provide a detailed imagery of God? Maybe Jesus, but that's it.

[Dongie]

Don't mock me

[Dongie]

You're angry at God. Think why and fore that matter how? If you don't believe in Him, why are you mad at Him.

[Juxtapose]

No ill intent or mockery meant. Seriously, the "fuck you" thing was meant to convey: "I'm God and fuck anything that stands in my way whatever I say goes and reality is my absolute bitch. Why? Fuck you that's why, I can exist in paradoxes and have absolutely no restrictions. Go ahead and try and stop me!"

[Dongie]

I know. Believe me, I can feel the frustration. I'm the world's worst, Christian.

[Dongie]

That's the whole point. You are free to do and think as you please. Even cussing at Him, and He allows it.

[Dongie]

One thing you also have is time.

[Juxtapose]

I'm not angry I am simply driving home my points aggressively because otherwise they get glossed over. I am bring up very valid logical points which no theist is able to answer.

If you can create a perfectly good world and you are all powerful but you don't? You are evil.

If you want to create a perfectly good world but you are incapable? You are not worthy of being called a God unless you want to be lowered to the level of Greek gods who were rather weak.

[Juxtapose]

"God can't explain that to you because he is mysterious and unknowable."

Then he is not omnipotent because an omnipotent being could do something silly like make a inanimate object gain intelligence enough to understand him or even understand him without having intelligence because God can break reality over his knee in ways you can't imagine.

[Dongie]

Oh? I saw an inanimate thing get snatched out of my hands. Felt it to. I had spoken to Jesus. I said I was, He said I wasn't. He won.

[Juxtapose]

How do you know that is not some alien tricking you? That would actually be a more likely explanation than a supernatural being and going by Occam's Razor, that's the rational choice over the supernatural. A hallucination would also be a more rational explanation.

I'm not trying to bust your balls man but jumping to the supernatural is a rather huge jump. Great claims require great evidence and the claim of the supernatural is one of the greatest claims of them all and would need tremendous evidence. That is why I don't believe it, not because I am being vindictive or whatever. I have no malice.

[Dongie]

I guess that makes me special. Don't ask me why. Maybe it was my sacrifice for my first 26 years here. Maybe it was for all the mental and emotional shit I've lived with instead of pursuing a life of my own. Maybe I don't know. Or I do. Perhaps it's all those things and more. There was no hallucination, and it involved my dad. Years later, I mentioned Devine intervention. He said, "You damn right, it was Devine intervention." There was no alien talking to me in my head.

[Juxtapose]

To go up to scientists and prove this you would need an incredible amount of evidence that has likely never been presented in science before.

[Juxtapose]

You are making an incredibly huge claim which I simply cannot take up on faith.

[Juxtapose]

I believe that you believe it and you are being sincere though.

[Dongie]

Thank you, Juxta. As far as scientist go, there are many more that believe today than yesterday.

[sage2021]

I am a Christian woman and love God, and he loves me.
I had trouble reading such small letters but I saw God being put down so I commented.

[Juxtapose]

This is from the same philosopher and it paraphrases the chart. It's not as precise but I think it will get the point across to you.

[sage2021]

@Juxtapose
I believe someone needs to read the bible to answer those man-made questions.

[Juxtapose]

Why can't you answer yourself? You are about twice my age (absolutely no disrespect meant by that) so you have had plenty of time to think about stuff like this and formulate an answer.

[Juxtapose]

Or does having faith prohibit you from questioning these sort of things?

[sage2021]

@Juxtapose
The whole thing, including the picture turned me off.
This is a question for atheists remember?

[Juxtapose]

The question about inner light and Angels was for atheist. This is very much so a question for everyone and religious people are the ones I want to hear from the most on this.

[NathanDavis]

yeah... that's my cousin Paradox

[thomastown]

Many logic flowcharts work that way.

[Juxtapose]

It's pretty rock solid though eh?

[gorydetails]

Atheist “logic” strikes again.

[Juxtapose]

Yet no theist here can disprove this paradox.

The arguments I see from theists basically boil down to:

"God can't be known by us."

If you are omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent you can literally make an inanimate object understand you because you are so powerful paradoxes don't matter to you and you can do things like create a boulder that you can simultaneously lift and can't lift. You can violate the laws of thermodynamics. You can do whatever you want and create the universe however you want. Whatever your human mind can imagine and far more, an all powerful being can do very easily.

So why let evil exist in the world?

"Lucifer did it."

Once again, you're all powerful. What's stopping you? If you have limitations you are not worthy of being called a God unless you want to be compared to those weak ass Greek gods.

"But free will.."

Once again, if you are a God you are so powerful you can simultaneously create a universe with free will and without evil. It doesn't have to make sense to you to work, it's from God. God could force it to work because God manipulates reality and makes it his complete bitch. Do you understand what it means to be a God?

"God is so great he doesn't have to explain himself to you."

Then he's a piece of shit and even if he is all powerful why listen to him? What kind of asshole would create living creatures, subject them to this torture with an explanation at all? Are you fucking serious?

[Juxtapose]

*without an explanation at all?

[gorydetails]

Odd you don't go after Muslims. Atheism is nothing but a religion that rebels against Christianity.

[Juxtapose]

Wow it's almost like there are no Muslims, wiccans, Hindus or so on for me to discuss this with here. Imagine that! It's almost like if I want to discuss religion, I'm best off debating Christians especially since I am most familiar with Christianity since I lived in a country with it. I don't live in a damn Muslim country dude and anyone with any sense knows they are fucking savages who throw gay people off of buildings and genocide jews. The moderate Muslims keep to themselves and good for them.

[Juxtapose]

And by the way deflecting away from my main point by pointing to another religion doesn't make your point any stronger. You're evading talking about the perfectly valid points I brought up because you know you can't counter them with any sort of cohesive logic. It's nothing against you, I couldn't either because there is no logic to counter it with. You have to have blind faith.

[Juxtapose]

And actually I have created questions in the past and even a draw Muhammad event so you're not really paying attention to me all that much if you think that.

[Juxtapose]

Don't be like the sjws and just turn your brain off. Think!

[gorydetails]

I'm exactly staying on point. Atheism is a religion that rebels against Christianity. Nothing more. It's been explained ad nauseum. God gave humans free will which includes the ability to decide whether to be good or evil.

[Juxtapose]

You say that as if my points could not transfer from Yahweh to Allah point for point. Nothing I am saying cannot also apply to Islam. Islam shares a lot of similarities with Christianity especially with the whole God being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipotent but also pure good at the same time.

Are you so unimaginative you can't imagine a universe that both has free will and no evil? There can be universes that exist with concepts you can't even imagine but you still have free will even though those concepts don't exist in your life which for aliens would be inconceivable to live without. You are thinking in too small of a bubble and being too unimaginative.

[gorydetails]

You're acting that evil is a thing that happens. There's no such thing as cold, right? Only the absence of heat. There's no such thing as dark. Only the absence of light. Evil is the same way. It's the absence of good.

[Juxtapose]

Evil is indeed a thing that happens. If I go up to a baby and throw it off a cliff, that is evil. There's really no getting around that.

If you are all powerful and all good, you have no excuse for allowing that to exist. You have the cheat code to everything and the universe doesn't even have to make sense to a human mind, you can make it however you want. If you are perfectly good and all powerful why not make the universe perfect?

[gorydetails]

But that is your interpretation of how you believe God should behave. He did create the universe perfect, and man still decided to disobey His rules.

[Juxtapose]

Absolute power has absolute responsibility. God created every living creature knowing exactly what they would do ahead of time and therefore God is fully responsible for those things taking place. God could created perfect creatures but he chose to create imperfect creatures he could persecute.

Even the cheeky little thing like putting the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden while having stupid humans with an infinite lifespan is obviously going to eventually lead to them eating it. It's statistically impossible for them to not eventually eat it because they are not perfect beings who know better.

[gorydetails]

So you are now dictating how God should behave?

[Juxtapose]

"But Jux, these humans needed free will."

Again, you can create a universe without evil that exists with free will rather easily. You don't even need to be all-knowing to do so, you just need omnipotence. *I* could do it if you give me omnipotence.

[Juxtapose]

*gave me

[gorydetails]

Yes, I get it. And there's the core of Atheism. You are replacing God by claiming that you'd be a better God.

[Juxtapose]

If you are going to call yourself all powerful, all knowing, all present and perfectly good? You're damn right I'm going to judge you by those standards and those are going to be very harsh standards.

You have to be able to do everything the human mind can imagine and beyond. I can imagine a world that for example has gravity and does not have gravity in some sort of weird paradox, God could easily make that happen and it would function well. God doesn't need to obey any rules of reality because God makes all the rules and God is absolutely responsible for everything that happens.

So if that God allows evil, it is not good. If it cannot prevent that evil, then why call it a God?

[gorydetails]

God allows free will. You choose the evil.

[Juxtapose]

I am demonstrating a logical point to you by showing you that with my limited human intelligence, I could go beyond these supposed limits you are placing on God if I had omnipotence.

Don't try to turn this into some weird ego thing when it's really not. I'm showing you logically why the idea of God does not make sense and how even with my limited intelligence I could make a lot of wonderful things happen with omnipotence.

[gorydetails]

"I could go beyond God"
"It's not some weird ego thing"

[Juxtapose]

You don't need to have evil, evil is not a requirement for free will. Like I said, God could create a universe for gravity for example operates in a way you can't imagine and doesn't make any sense at all. God doesn't need evil. Placing evil in this world when he could avoid it makes him evil himself.

[Juxtapose]

*a universe with gravity for example which operates in a way you can't imagine

[Juxtapose]

With how limited you are making your God even with it having onimpotence? I absolutely could. You are being really unimaginative and making your God into a rather weak God.

[gorydetails]

Wait you're saying that I can't understand gravity but you understand God?

[Juxtapose]

No, I am saying God could create a universe with gravity that operates in a way you could not comprehend. So therefore creating a universe that simultaneously has free will with no evil would be trivial for a being that is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-present. If you don't think that would be trivial for such a being I question your logic and reasoning.

[Juxtapose]

The free will excuse just does not work when you are all powerful.

[gorydetails]

Science doesn't even understand why we sleep. There's infinite things we don't understand.

[Juxtapose]

Omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence means you can do anything and you have absolutely no restrictions or excuses for your behavior whatsoever. Reality is your bitch and nothing can stand in the way of your perfect vision.

[Juxtapose]

Not Lucifer, not free will, not anything.

[gorydetails]

Yes, you have made it perfectly clear that you think you're smarter than God.

[Juxtapose]

No I actually think if there is a God that has omniscience it has infinite intelligence and I cannot be smarter than it. However, the God you are describing does not have omniscience or even omnipotence.

If anyone is desecrating the idea of God it is you.

[Juxtapose]

And here we are again, I am the focus of the conversation instead of God. Because these questions I am asking cannot be honestly answered by any theist.

[Juxtapose]

It's like you guys can't grasp the concept of omnipotence or omniscience. You don't really realize what that means.

[gorydetails]

You keep inserting yourself into the discussion. That's not me, that's you.

[Juxtapose]

As an example of how easy it is to use omnipotence to create perfection if it was given to me? Absolutely.

[DrPepper12]

I am god. Prove im not. Ill wait...

[DrPepper12]

@gorydetails. Athiesm is NOT a religion. Its just moronic to say so

[Juxtapose]

@DrPepper12 yep, atheism is not a religion at all. That's like calling not participating in sports a sport.

[gorydetails]

@DrPepper12 you’re an idiot, not God

[gorydetails]

@DrPepper12 well let’s see, Atheism has a dogma, an organizational structure, weekly meetings where they reaffirm their beliefs.