Hobbes: "Government is necessary, not because man is naturally bad but because man is by nature more individualistic than social?" Is this your view?

[DrPepper12]

Machiavelli gets too much press because of his quote "Since love and fear can hardly exist together, if we must choose between them, it is far safer to be feared than loved.”

Let's discuss Hobbes observation about that necessary evil of civilization:

"The life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Dead thinkers should be heard, there is a tempting illusion at play though, we tend to idealize their views, a pedestal. They were living in different times, without access to more recent knowledge, without access to evolution of societies, of people, of new ways and new thinking material. I see their views as relative to a historical and philosophical context.

Besides, I don't trust the concept of human nature, there are too many additional factors coming on top of that. Too many layers getting in the way of determinism. As for government, so far, yes I view it as a necessity, to protect us from our stupidity and lack of empathy, in general.

[WindAtMyBack]

I don't agree that government is necessary, so obviously I can't agree with the overall quote.

But anyway, I think humans are individuals within a larger social context. Most people crave being around other people, although some far more than others.

[DrPepper12]

There are alternatives to government - India organized around Hinduism and China the family unit but does modernity need something more?

[Caroline91]

@WindAtMyBack I agree that humans are individuals within a larger social context. So, how do you structure that social context without government or some other system of organization?

[WindAtMyBack]

@Caroline91

Cooperation is not the same thing as government. Having no government does not mean you can't have cooperation.

@DrPepper12

"does modernity need something more?"

I don't think so. But getting from here to there is a whole 'nother story.

[Caroline91]

@WindAtMyBack So, show large of a larger social context are you thinking of? And how does the cooperation happen? Is it formalized or informal?

[Caroline91]

* How large

[WindAtMyBack]

@Caroline91

It's informal. I'm sure you've done it many times in your life. It would be small scale, but a whole lot of small scale cooperations.

[Caroline91]

@WindAtMyBack I have done it many times and am in a cooperative living situation now with family, extended family and friends. It is the way I grew up and have always lived my life. I would say it could extend to the size of a small town even, which is how early settlers, pioneers and tribal units world wide have functioned for thousands of years. But, it would not work to build national or international projects, hospitals, research institutes, and so many more things that we have in the world now. I'm not passing any judgment on which is better. Just different.

[Anonymous]

Government is a natural progression because those who use an ungovermented world cease power to impose their own Government and laws. It's the history of the world.

[Caroline91]

I think it is the opposite. Man is by nature more social and government is needed to help bring cohesiveness to society as a whole.

[DrPepper12]

I agree.

[exitseven]

Government should only be needed to preserve the rights of everyone.

[DrPepper12]

I think we need more than that. A common fund to supply common goods.

[exitseven]

That is where a free market economy comes in

[DrPepper12]

"Free" markets need rules & umpires. Negative externalities need to be addressed. It's not that easy

[exitseven]

that is the government protecting the right of everyone.

[jshm2]

That's bull. Government is a cohesive system to build and administer for the people. Without it, you cannot have infrastructure or laws.

[OddBeMe]

True. Balance of powers. We need govt regulators to balance big business

[DrPepper12]

Agreed. Restraint is the price of civilization

[NathanDavis]

we are definitely not free thinkers, especially today...

we're still very much a herd, and not a smart one either

[Caroline91]

Well, you were smart enough to figure that out.

[NathanDavis]

@Caroline91 there's always that black sheep... lol

[Caroline91]

Baaa baa

[NathanDavis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xcSDYy3Dl4

[Caroline91]

@NathanDavis. Baaaahahaha

[RedInnocent69]

He’s not wrong. That’s why it’s safer to be feared than loved