Would leftists be happy with the collapse of the western world?

[FrodoSkywalker007]

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Why is this a leftist only challenge? The right is doing the same type of collapse just fine their way and both sides do it all according to the people who pay them the most to mold this world to their image. We need people who aren't beholden to the highest bidder to lead this country

If DSA thinks they can do that, then whatever. MAGA has already proven they can't do it. They elected a grifter and now we are a lesser country for it whether you see it or not.

My vote is that there are very, VERY few uncorruptable souls out there who are willing to do the work it takes to steer society for the better. Time to let someone else take the helm for a while.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Oh, and here I thought right wingers were nationalistic fascists 🤷‍♂️
Gotta keep your claims straight 😂

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

MAGA is a fascist cult. Corporate democrats are inept enablers. They dont care about this country only getting votes to keep the gravy train rolling.

The real issue is with these foreign influencers and tech bros trying to shape this entire world into their image. They just happen to be using a fascist cult to do the work right now but will absolutely use corrupt democrats to further push their agenda for things like surveillance so that there is truly no anonymity left in this world.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Ok, so let's say MAGA is a fascist cult.
What about that supports the collapse of the west?
Leftists? Certainly, they parade those values all the time. Decolonize this. No one is illegal on stolen land. All cultures and peoples are equal. Etc etc etc.

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Soooo all cultures and people are equal is somehow the fall of the west? Does the west only stand if rich white people exist with power? Make that one make sense.

But let's play a long. You don't think that giving up almost all of our soft power over the world is not fomenting the fall of the west?

Isolating ourselves and letting eastern countries like China and Russia gain ground on us with foreign trade is somehow us showing strength as a western society?

[FrodoSkywalker007]

You are contradicting yourself.
How is Hyper Nationalism or a supremacist view an acceptance of western collapse?

I don't view Trump as a fascist, but a 1990s Democrat (which he is). His policies are not very unique historically. You exaggerate 🤷‍♂️

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

No contradictions here. The fascism comes into play with hyper nationalism amongst other telling signs.

Trump wasn't anymore a Democrat than he is a republican now. He's a con artist who wears any skin needed to enrich himself.

MAGA is a fascist cult. Trump is their cultist "leader" grifter enjoying the benefits of what the cultists give him. It's the ones financing him who are the true fascists who want to change western culture to match what Hitler tried and failed to do. Hopefully we come together to eradicate this cult and get to restoring western culture which was meant to be one built on freedom and intertwining cultures.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Once again, let's pretend it's all fascism.
How is that any resembling that desire for the collapse of western society?
You are not making sense.

It seems you support the collapse of the west, if you believe a globalist view is western 🤷‍♂️

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

I mean, no need to pretend. It IS fascist cult, but when a society is built on freedom, cooperation with our partners, and tolerance of those who are different from us (such as free speech and freedom of religion enshrined in our constitution) and you start to strip those away to hurt minorities such as immigrants, "brown people" and LGBT, pulling out of trade agreements with our partners and placing higher and higher tarriffs on them when you get pissy, and force a Christian nationalist view of society on to its people, then yeah it's going to lead to it's collapse as it was meant to be.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Look, I'll give you honest perspective.

Fascism/Hyper Nationalism is the furthest thing from desiring the collapse of your people. Hitler certainly did terrible things, but not because he desired the collapse of his civilization. Quite the opposite, one of his policies (lebensraum) was specifically about the expansion of the German people.

The argument here isn't about it being right or wrong, but rather or not it was about safeguarding a people. The Nazis made those positions clear and we've had generations of educators relating to us the follies of that sort of supremacy.

What leftists (or globalists) desire is a unification of the world, and the surrender of white homogeneity. You hint at it in this very conversation. Notice, how you as a lesbian woman question the validity of the statement that not all cultures are equal? Yet, you'd know your lifestyle wouldn't be acceptable in most of the world. This is known as suicidal empathy. We have been trained this way for generations.

It's ironic 🤷‍♂️

[FrodoSkywalker007]

See, globalist view.
You desire the collapse of the west, and you hide behind values you recognize historically have no application to you on many levels 🤷‍♂️
It's a common tactic to deflect and play victim

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Also, I don't really support any of your positions. I find them all nonsense political jargon.
I see nothing different on Trump than most any other administration (many others bring worse).

I'm simply accepting your point to get across that Hyper Nationalism doesn't equate to supporting the collapse of one's society.

Instead, it's leftist/globalist views that openly accept that. Think of the white population losing majority (which will happen in the UK by 2060). In any other civilization, leftists would argue replacement and genocide. In western society, they applaud it, and argue it doesn't matter.

That should tell you enough 🤷‍♂️

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

It's not the furthest thing. It's reshaping society into your own self image that somehow believes itself to be superior to all others but ONLY if you carry the same beliefs, otherwise, get out. That isn't what this country was built on. We ran from that. The society built on kings and queens as a ruling party and deciding what was best for the masses. We were built to allow the people to decide and to cooperate with different ideologies to form a more better union.

This administration is trying to strip those rights away and restore them back to those at the top. That is leading to the fall of western society. Not sure how you are blind to it, but cults do be having that effect on people I guess.

And oh gosh, you were so close to catching the point that it hurts to see you miss it.

You brought up how I want a unification of the world? That would be great, but it would be on western terms of acceptance of all. Not killing me and other lgbt members for being who we are. See? That line of thinking is not western society. This administration is targeting lgbt. They want us to go away at worst or be eliminated at their best. That's not western society. That is backwards thoughts of society that is popularized... in you guessed it.. Eastern countries. MAGA is trying to give up our western identity to an Eastern thought process in the name of "national pride".

And yes, i am all for the surrender of white homogeneity. We are all meant to be equals, not slaves to a rich white shrinking, but vocal, population.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

You are ignoring the reality that the US was not founded under equality for all. Women only received the right to vote a century ago. Gays only received the right to marry a decade ago.
You are conflating modern views to history. 🤷‍♂️

Let's look at this utopian unification. You believe the Islamic world will magically accept liberal views with open arms? 😂

I'll ignore the rest, for its ridiculous and off topic.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Ill say this quote proves my point. 🤷‍♂️
You desire a collapse of civilization
Admit it, drop the virtue signaling.
"And yes, i am all for the surrender of white homogeneity. We are all meant to be equals, not slaves to a rich white shrinking, but vocal, population."

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

No im not. Again, so close it hurts.

It was founded for equality because if it wasn't then those laws wouldn't have been passed giving us those rights. If this were eastern fascist countries, those things never would have come about. Western freedoms are what brought about those changes.

This goverment is trying to revert those changes single handedly. They want to and openly talk about trying to remove women's rights to vote. They are trying to make it harder and/or intimidate minorities from voting.

As for unification, you do realize that for us to be truly unified that we would all be under the belief that we are all equals right? You can't have unification if you have people believing that gays and trans people should be beheaded or stoned to death.

But guess what? We have to put up with that kind of thought process from the Christians and Catholics as it is and we have them here already in the western world, don't we?

And finally, you can call it ridiculous and off-topic if you dont have an actual thought to counter it. I can see when someone is conceding the point well enough, so thanks for letting me know I am making ground with you.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

I have no interest in tackling it because it's not central to my argument here.
My point here is about the collapse of western society, not if Trump is a fascist. This is why I've given you the benefit of the doubt in this conversation. It plays no role on what I'm discussing.
If you want that conversation, answer my other questions on here and we can have it.
You've talked with me before, and you know im very fair 🤷‍♂️

You are ignoring that these rights (women's, gays, minorities), were given during social shifts. By your definition, the US was fascist most of its history. 🤷‍♂️

Your illusion is that your perspectives of equality are shared by the rest of the world.
If you were honest with your perspectives you would either acknowledge
1. Not all cultures are equal
Or
2. You desire a western collapse (for whatever reason).

If you chose number 1, then you wish for the collapse of other cultures (like Islamic culture) and would see the folly in integrating it.
If number 2, then you agree with my original statement here that leftists desire a western collapse.

🤷‍♂️

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

I mean, you are trying your best to shove this all into a neat little box for you, but I am afraid it doesn't work like that.

And no, if we were fully fascist then those shifts wouldn't have happened. The shift now is to remove those future shifts and remain a fully fascist state beholden to the rich.

All cultures are equal, not all are just. We all have a right to exist is the point and if all cultures can come to that understanding, then why wouldn't that be a perfect society?

So what if they worship a different god than you? Are they showing you respect and not attacking you? Great! That's what western civilization is supposed to be about.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

I'm trying my best to keep us on topic. You are mostly interested in calling Trump and MAGA fascists. If you look at my first reply, you will see I accept your premise to move the discussion on. My arguments were on how being Fascist or Hyper Nationalist equates to wanting ones culture to collapse. Understand?

Once again, you assume the coexistence is the desire of all cultures. The fact remains that many cultures cannot intertwine because they are the antithesis of each other.
If all cultures are "equal" but many are unjust, then I'd assume a Hitlerian Fascistic culture is also equal 🤷‍♂️
If we take Palestinian culture, they are extremely supremacist, anti gay, anti jew. Even Hamas had in its 1988 charter the call to eliminate all Jews. It's bad enough that many Arab nations label their organizations as terrorist organizations, which westerners accept, such as the Muslim Brotherhood, which operates as a nonprofit in the US. How do you, as a gay woman, unify with that?
In my mind, that is virtue signalling.

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Well, I feel like I have been in topic this whole time. It's about what western civilization actually is supposed to be about and how MAGA is trying to pervert it into something akin to a fascist state. You want this to be about how the left wants the collapse to occur and yet all evidence is showing that it's the conservatives initiating it.

I never said a perfect society would be achievable, certainly not in my lifetime anyway. All i said is if all cultures can learn to coexist then why wouldn't that be the goal of western society? It's the eastern society's way of being ruled by dictators and religious doctrines that is the issue. MAGA is trying to replicate that here.

Once again, that's not what western freedoms are about. Simple.

At this point though, it feels really dismissive of how you are treating my rebuttals. We might just be at one of those agree to disagree moments and move on.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Once again, I agreed with your premise that MAGA is fascist, but questioned how that desires the collapse of society 🤷‍♂️

My position has clearly been that Hyper Nationalism doesn't desire a societal collapse. It actually operates to conserve it.

So, then how do you unify a world that has such differing cultures?

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

It's not fighting to conserve it. It's fighting to mold it into it's own image, not what the founders and the people who fought for our freedoms wanted or envisioned.

If western society is about freedoms and integration, then locking down borders, ostracizing those different than them, declaring that those who aren't white dont belong here... well that's fundamentally changing who we are as a society to benefit the few, not the whole. It strips freedoms from those who have lived here all their lives and support this country. That's not western culture at work. That's fascism working to destroy what was built.

I never claimed to have the answer for unifying the world. All I have said is that if all cultures learn to coexist and not try to kill each other just for being different then we have succeed as a society. That's what western culture would be about. Freedom of religion and expression without fear of retaliation.

It's eastern societies who close ranks and refuse to accept anyone different than them that are the issue here. MAGA needs to stop trying to emulate that.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

You are equating western values to Globalism
Did the founding fathers want marriage rights for gays? Women to have voting rights? Etc.

What you are asking for is the erasure of white culture 🤷‍♂️
You claim yourself you don't know how they will coexist. So, why attempt to enforce integration? Why not leave it alone, and allow western culture to enact policies to protect itself from others? Take the UK, and it's current two tier policing, and removal of British culture and history?

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Why feel the need to "protect itself from others"? We aren't at war with most of them, you know, except the ones we go to instigate.

Also, white supremacy believers are the only ones concerned they are "being erased". Normal, healthy people see it being introduced to other cultures and learning to coexist within a western culture environment of tolerance and acceptance.

As for the founding fathers, they weren't perfect and nailed everything on the first try. What they did do however was lay down the foundation for voters to vote who they wanted in to represent them to vote their interests. This meant having the freedom to protest when things were not equal and correct those wrongs (which is why women can vote and I can have a wife legally). Unfortunately those leaders have been corrupted and sold to the highest bidder and it's led to what we see today. A cultist movement to regress society at best and more likely convert it away entirely from western ideals.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Islam is an antagonistic religion that takes over every region it populates. Most of its current territories used to be Christian 🤷‍♂️

Do you believe a Muslim majority would be perfectly acceptable of you as a practicing lesbian? You may have trepidations with Christians, but you are allowed have your lifestyle. Name me a Muslim nation where that is true?

Protect yourself from that. 🤷‍♂️ I'd like to also protect your from that.

Why is it acceptable for all peoples to segregate or hold their values, but not white?
You'd never have this expectation on Africans, or Asians 🤷‍♂️
The folly is taking a relatively accepting society (the west) and attempting to integrate it with societies that are not 🤷‍♂️
What societies in this world offer better rights to women's, or gays, or other minorities?
Accept it, you live in the best and more accepting and you are wishing to integrate with societies that are against your values

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

OK first off these same "tolerant" Christian nationalists you speak of are working to take my marriage rights away so they aren't any better.

No, I don't think a Muslim majority taking over would be beneficial nor would i think ANY religion would be. Any of you are free to practice what you want in private, just stop making it everyone else's problem to live up to your expectations of religious doctrine. Live in peace with everyone else and I won't care if you want to pray 30 times a day or even reenact the crucifixion on yourself yearly.

Think of it this way, there has been this huge push to ban lgbt books from schools and libraries in general, right? Well, if that's the stance we are going to take, then make it apply to ALL religious materials in any environment other than church grounds and your own private homes. We certainly aren't knocking door to door extolling the virtues of being gay and trying to convert you into finding a boyfriend or condemning you to hell for not being gay. Religions on the other hand to come knocking and doing exactly that.

It isn't a Muslim vs a Christian thing. It's most majority religions that do that.

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

You have 0 interest in protecting me from anything. This whole MAGA movement wants to protect themselves because minorities scare them.

Nobody should be segregating here. We were supposed to have done away with that when the Civil rights movement was going on. It's OK to have your traditions, no different than having holiday traditions for example. Where the problem lies is when you try to remove minorities from this country because you thinks it only belongs to white people. As I say that though, immigrants coming to this country are welcome to keep their traditions as well, as long as both sides follow the law and dont try to push them on everyone else. That's why finding utopia is unlikely to happen in my lifetime. Religion and race has continued the trend of tribalism in this world.

All I ask is if you are going to live in western society, that you do better and rise above it before we end up in our own dictatorship like Russia or China.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

So once again, are you better living in the West?
Or would you prefer to live in Muslim nation?
If you prefer the West, and wouldn't want to live under Islam, why would you support globalist initiatives and unification?

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Because if we are uniting, it's not to live under Muslim law or Christian law. Everyone is able to do their own thing and show respect to not push those values on others.

It's a utopia dream, yes, maybe not realistic but preferable over the greed and power hungriness we have now and that goes for all sides of the political abd religious aisles.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

So how do you unite with Islam, if you think Christian societies are so terrible?
If you recognize it unrealistic, why do you support the integration of those cultures?

[FrodoSkywalker007]

The issue I see here is that you clearly recognize Christian dominated societies are more accepting of you, even if it's not to the degree you want. You seem unwilling to acknowledge such a comparison does not exist in the Islamic world. The issues you have in the west are very miniscule compared to what you'd suffer as both a woman and gay in the Islamic world

So, if you recognize this, and that hoping those cultures were compatible is unrealistic, why support it?
Is that not an example of suicidal empathy? Is that not like knowing entering an extremely abusive relationship (arguably worse).
Why support this?

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

Because we aren't going to learn to live in harmony if we keep segregated and not learn from each other's differences and similarities. Let's roll back a bit here though, would you be saying the same thing about other Americans, say African Americans, during the Civil rights movement when there was a fight to do away with segregation there? Would you be fighting against unification then too?

I worry the answer might be yes based on how you worry about white tradition (which is steeped in taking traditions from other races/countries/ religions and then claiming it as their own). Hopefully you deny wanting to segregate Americans too.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

African Americans were essentially already colonized. They were ripped of their language, culture, history... etc.
Integrating them created problems, but there were similarities because it was enforced on them after centuries of slavery.

I'd argue with Hispanic populations, there is a common cultural heritage due to many of them being heavily colonized. Cultural there are differences, buts not as severe as comparing a country like Norway to Yemen.

The same does not apply to integrating societies that can't coexist. One must dominate the other.

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

So your only method is peace through war and subjugation. Yeah, if that is what you want to reference as your white culture then I hope it does get eradicated.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Not at all. 🤷‍♂️
That's what you want to read into my statement due to leftist brain rot.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

I do think you just unknowingly proved my point.
You made an assumption on my culture, called for its eradication, yet earlier called all cultures equal.

Let's brainstorm why that was your gut reaction immediately to my statement.
Did you find something that couldn't coexist in your utopian world?

If yes, then how could you incorporate an Islamic worldview? What would you expect billions of Muslims to do?

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

"One must dominate the other"

Then in the same post talk about how minorities in this country were colonized away from their roots making them acceptable to you, proving my statement about the idea all white culture is, is taking other people/cultures and claiming it as their own.

I am not reading into anything. Those are your words not mine.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

You asked if I'd supported civil rights.
Yes, because culturally blacks were very similar to whites in the US.

Would that same standard apply to Sudan, where hundreds of thousands of Christians are murdered? Probably not 🤷‍♂️
Why would I want to integrate that culture?

Furthermore, would you want to integrate an Islamic culture into your city that enforced sharia? I'll assume not. Does that mean we should eradicate your culture for not being accepting of others?

[FrodoSkywalker007]

You are also knowingly misinterpreting my response.
My statement of "one must dominate another" is not a call for eradication (the only one supporting that here is you), it's a recognition that certain cultures can't coexist.

You know this, because you admitted you had no idea how your utopia would work. This is acknowledgement of my statement.

You are attempting to virtue signal and use suicidal empathy to misconstrue a statement we both agree on.

If all cultures could easily coexist, we wouldn't have this discussion and you wouldn't admit the unlikely event your utopia coming true

[FrodoSkywalker007]

3rd and final reply on this 😂
You must recognize your utopia requires domination.
How do you mix cultures that don't agree on basic things (gender norms, sexuality, rights etc) ?
Many won't live with the others because the others are antagonistic to their values.
Who decides what the defines ethics? Liberal progressives? How?
You must dominate, you must control.
Do you believe Muslims will say "oh sure, you cam be lesbian, practice Haram, it's fine!! Centuries are faith mean nothing"
Because you want it so?

You are asking for the eradication of culture to make this work.
Even holding cultures at peace has required historicaly a massive power, which requires muscle, war... etc

I'm not sure you understand what you ask.

[Ez-Bri-Z_v2]

I think you are missing the point, hopefully not intentionally.

Im not asking for the eradication of anything if we want to all coexist. What we can eradicate are those who think they must dominate another group of power through war and subjugation. That mindset can go right out the window.

That's mindset has what made this world the tribalist mindset that it is in. All these different power hungry assholes who corrupt others into believing that they are better than others meanwhile you have others too afraid to rock the boat and say something to stop them.

Im not about that kind of life.

I can get along with just about any level headed person that knows how to communicate even if I dont agree with them on something. I will teach my kids to be the same. I will also teach them not to roll over if they see something evil and wrong.

What I won't be teaching them is that their culture is somehow better than everyone else's that they dont understand.

And to finish my thoughts on this, no, I dont expect them to approve of me having a wife, what I do expect them to do if they want to incorporate into western society is to leave me in peace about it and not force their beliefs onto me. I expect Christians to do the same. One isn't better than the other and thats been my whole damn point.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Okay, let's put it simply.
Bachi Bazi is practiced in Afghanistan, many veterans can tell you about it. This is sadly a significant part of their tribal culture. I assume you disagree with it. 🤷‍♂️ should that be treated as valid because it's another people's culture? It sounds to me you'd view your own culture as equal to that? I'd say your culture is clearly far superior.

So, then if you expect people to leave you in peace, you'd likely not want to integrate Islamic culture. So, why try?
What I'm getting at is if you've got problems with a Christian dominate nation that has supported your lifestyle (yes, there are certainly those that don't, yet here you live it without imprisonment, execution etc.) How could you think living peacefully with a culture that doesn't support it, destroys it, and even curbs women's rights... would be possible?

[Paige2006]

Yes they would

[Rorroto]

I know an accelerationist that would... but that's probably because they have bipolar disorder. I think it's pretty clear that they generally want stability.

Why are we focusing this question on any group besides MAGA though? They're the only group that just wants to sodomize the west to death for no reason. It's like "Durrr... let's shatter the American softpower that we've built up for decades in 1 presidency by pointlessly infuriating all our allies then attempt to attack Iran without refilling our national oil reserve after pissing off our all our allies in a manner that nobody thought would work in the first place."

[Just_Ken]

Those that do like the idea but not the reality of what that would mean. Its like what happened with the cities that defunded the Police.

Most people I knew that were leftist socialists were in the their teens and twenties but when they grew up and got jobs quickly realised that every socialist policy has to be paid for by someone and mote and more became more conservative. Socialists that are over 30 or 40 are all the wasters in life, blaming everyone else for their problems.

[Ariesman81Nshiiit]

They would. As evidenced by the sheer number of global socialists pissed that we're no longer subsidizing their "free" systems.

Kind of like the bitches that demand you pay for dinner but only have a worn out pussy as incentive.

[Tamera952]

Yea, that’s what they’re trying to effectuate. That is what you think they want to be happy? What a dumb silly question. You can’t be serious. Maybe you should be more specific what you mean by leftists.
If the western world as we know it, collapses, it will be from the efforts of Pres. Pedo-Piggy, with his facist supporters, and as a wannabe authoritarian, by angering and alienating our allies, and trying to suck the dick of every dictator in the world.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Are all cultures equal?

[shish_kebab]

How can Trump supporters be fascists? Are they all leaders? 😅

Which side supports the mutilation of children? It's not Team Trump.

Which side supports shitty education? It's not Team Trump.

[Screenwriter]

Crazy people all think that everything needs to be changed. It's foolish. irrational and draconian. Positive change is a good thing. But it takes a lot of work to do so. Slash and burn change is destructive...

[Rorroto]

Bernie Sanders was the most rational, level-headed presidential candidate in the batch we've had recently.

[shish_kebab]

Yes they want it and yes they will regret it deeply when it happens. But as usual they will just blame someone else.

[Levin]

There's some Euro's on here who literally wank themselves to sleep every night to this utopian ideal.

[exitseven]

yes, there would be dancing in the streets for at least a week until theey realize how much communism will suck

[Cidknee]

How could they further than the first day or so as they would bask in the glow of bringing down the tyrants. Then they would take a look around and get pissed.

[strateguy632]

Yes. They say close the senate! Take property from rich but rich -is YOU TOP 10%

[DryGermanGuy]

No. Stop with these moronic questions, you look like a dumbass pretending to be smart.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

High praise from you
Thank you ☺

[NathanDavis]

seems like you would be happy to see the world collapse just to feel you were right about them being happy to see it collapse...

[NaultD]

First step in recovery is addressing the problem.

[Agape93]

Nah, they just want the collapse of their opposing ideology and it's powerbase, same with the right.

[Abbycado]

This is just you projecting.

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Do you want the west to collapse? Be honest ☺

[Pterodon]

Definitely

[Anonymous]

Nope

[FrodoSkywalker007]

Are you sure? The DSA seems to want it 🤷‍♂️