How much would it cost?

[msc545]

"

Manufactured by US weapons manufacturers Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, the Javelin costs $178,000, including the launch system and missile, according to the Pentagon's 2021 budget. Each replacement missile costs around $78,000."

How much would it cost to just buy the Russians off?

[t-8900]

You can't buy the Russians off with this ATM because the crisis was partially manufactured by the US gov. This is Russia's cuban missile crisis. The best way to defuse is to not allow Ukraine to become part of NATO and also allow Ukraine to keep it's independence with a newly elected leader since this one is actually truly a fascist who jailed 11 political factions and made himself defacto dictator. Ukraine is also run by a scumbag
Just a shame the Ukrainian people got mixed up in all of this

[goaded]

Bullshit. Poland has been a member of NATO on their border since 1999. And with bloody good reason, it seems. Ukraine had a Putin puppet in power until 2014 who was willing to kill his citizens to stay in power. Zalenskyy was elected in a fair election not to be like that.

[t-8900]

Yes but Poland didn't have the strategic resources. Russia was fighting a culture war to get Ukraine to be become an ally. For years the Russians held out hope as Ukraine has holds a vast grain and oil supply and a direct route to the black sea. If Ukraine could act as a buffer to the other eastern bloc nations it would give Russia ample time to respond to other external threats. When Biden admin said Ukraine would be joining NATO they basically gave Russia a green light to invade. As we can see Russia was not prepared from r the invasion and it shows. Thus they didn't actually expect Ukraine to join up with NATO and thus were lax for war preparations
Also it's a fact Zalenskyy has detained political rivals and halted any future elections. Go look into it yourself. I don't buy the propaganda spewed. Ukraine is also guilty of war crimes in this war now. I doubt they'll be reshowing that clip of Russian pows being castrated

[goaded]

More bullshit.

Once your country has been invaded, anyone supporting the invaders is a traitor, no? The last election was 2019, iirc.

Ukraine was never a rival to Russia; it was never going to invade (just like Poland was never going to invade Russia); NATO membership would simply have protected it from what's happening right now.

[t-8900]

Ukraine is a launch point/staging ground. Everyone in NATO basically sucks the nuts of USA, UK, and France. So that's already cause for concern for the Kremlin as there is a history of UK and USA wanting to escalate numerous times against Russia starting back in if you can believe it 1945. Russia was pretty calm till Obama stirred the hornets nest. As I said Ukraine is also strategic for other reasons including access to the black sea and producing more grain per sq km then Russia. I'm sure Hitler and Stalin concocted ways to accuse all their rivals of treason too. Should I believe them too? Look believe what you want I have no hat in this conflict and quite frankly never will unless Ukraine manages to get us involved which would lead to ww3 more than likely and I'm not dying for Ukrainians so w/e you so you.

[t-8900]

*do you

[Jamie05rhs]

@t-8900 Biden never said Ukraine was joining NATO.

Also, Obama didn't stir shit. What the hell are you talking about?

[t-8900]

@Jamie05rhs yes Obama most certainly did start shit. He's the one who brought Putin into the light of the American political scene. There's a whole thing about it. Under bush and prior Russia was rather quiet. You didn't hear much about Russia since the USSR until Obama. Obama distracting people from his Chinese payoffs and bailout money.. so he targets Russia and stirs the hornets nest. You were either not paying attention back then or have bad memory. Psaki came out and said there were talks of Ukraine joining NATO. The deal was Russia would leave Ukraine alone if they never joined NATO. Also why did their pm have a 22 percent approval rating? I don't buy the shit Biden is pushing and unless you people want to be the ones fighting that fruitless war air down. We don't need warhawks

[goaded]

"Ukraine has had a partnership with NATO since 1992. NATO established a Ukraine-NATO commission in 1997, providing a discussion forum for security concerns and as a way to further the NATO-Ukraine relationship – without a formal membership agreement."
theconversation.com/whats-nato-and-why-does-ukraine-want-to-join-175821

[t-8900]

Yeah im not reading call that. It was a 3 way agreement. Ukraine disarms and never becomes a NATO member and Russia takes back the nukes and pledges not to invade Ukraine so long as Ukraine doesn't NATO or rearm their nuclear arsenal. That's what I'm referring to. Also unless you yourself are going to fight that war or are a Ukrainian then what's it to you? I'm tired of being guardians of the world. Let someone else take up the mantle now

[msc545]

Oddly enough, in this instance, I have to agree with T-8900. Heis right. The war going on right now between Russia and Ukraine is a proxy war that was begun and is being maintained by the US. If Ukraine joined NATO, next the US would be putting airfields and missile bases in Ukraine, and the Russians will not and should not tolerate that any more than the US tolerated Russsian nuclear missiles in Cuba long ago.

[goaded]

"Yeah im not reading [all] that".
So you're uninformed.

[goaded]

@msc545 AFAICS, until the invasion of Ukraine, NATO had roughly 40 people each in Estonia and Latvia. Romania and Poland have (or will have) anti-Balistic missile bases. They're only a threat to incoming balistic missiles, not a danger to anyone. Why would NATO suddenly build bases in Ukraine?

On the other hand, recent events prove Ukraine was right in wanting to join the alliance.

[msc545]

@goaded If you believe that because the US tells you that, you are being naive. The US routines lies about such things.

[goaded]

Believe what, exactly? Ukraine's been invaded, Poland, Estonia, and Latvia haven't. Are you saying that has nothing to do with them being members of NATO?

NATO isn't the US.

[t-8900]

@msc545 he consistently never questions the official stories. If you do more research on what I say you will agree with me even more. Such was the case with Kyle Rittenhouse, remember? Don't listen to man and CNN they consistently lie. Russiagate is a prime example.

[goaded]

@t-8900 Since you just said you couldn't be bothered to read about the subject, you don't really have a leg to stand on, do you?

[msc545]

@goaded If you believe that the US does not have a lot more military hardware and people in Estonia, Romania, Latvia, and Poland, you are being naive. The US government *lies about such things* as well as many other things. There is really no way to know what they have in those countries.

Even if they are somehow not lying, there is no way Putin can allow yet another proximate country to join NATO for reasons of his own political survival.

[goaded]

So three is fine, four is impossible? No. Putin wants to take over eastern European countries, and the one he started with was the one that isn't in NATO. Funny, that.

By all accounts, he's lost thousands of soldiers in the invasion. How is that going to help his political survival?

[msc545]

@goaded By Russian accounts, he has NOT lost thousands of soldiers in the war, and Ukraine is not winning. Who, if anyone, is believable?

[goaded]

The people saying it's a "special operation" to "de-Nazify" Ukraine. Obviously.

[Jamie05rhs]

@goaded Why are we not friends?

[t-8900]

@goaded actually it's cuz I already researched the shit out of it and if you are spouting the propaganda which you are and changing your profile to have a Ukrainian flag and acting like Ukraine is not one of the most corrupt govs on earth then you have literally nothing to teach me bro. You are naive af. And everytime I see you talk about some political shit it's always the official story like you watch the shit on TV and never ask questions. I can't take people like you seriously

[goaded]

Of course you've "researched the shit out of it". So, how do you explain how talks for Ukraine to join NATO in the 1990's were Obama's doing?

[t-8900]

That's not what I said but do keep putting words in my mouth.

[goaded]

You said: "it's a fact Zalenskyy has [...] halted any future elections"

Why would he bother? There aren't any due until the end of 2023 (parliament) and 2024 (president). I think that's simply not true, and hence you're repeating propaganda.

[t-8900]

@goaded propaganda from WHOM? Where is the propaganda coming from that I got? No Russia because RT was shut down. Not on TV because all the media networks support Ukraine to varying degrees. Not BBC or DW as they too are in favor of Ukraine. So where then guy? Where? God forbid anyone thinks for themselves. And I was talking about your claim that I said Ukraine was talking to Obama in 1990's. That's not what I said bruh I said Obama started sh*t with Russia while he was in office and brought up Putin constantly so try again. by the way what is your solution to the problem exactly? What are you achieving with putting up Ukraines colors on your profile aside from some virtue signaling?

[goaded]

So, I'm wrong and Zelenskyy really has "halted any future elections", like you claim? Why don't you show me where you got that from?

[t-8900]

Why is it that I'm to answer all of your questions and you answer none of mine? I'll wait for you to catch up on the accusations and then I'll address the rest

[goaded]

Yeah, that's what I thought. What you said wasn't true. Zalenskyy hasn't "halted any future elections".

[t-8900]

That's not what I said and I test my case. You can't answer a f'n thing and just keep responding with more questions. F that sh*t you're full of your own horse sh*t and got nothing. I will gladly answer but you need to answer the 3 questions you dodged first which you can't. This is what I mean goaded you never ever ever question official stories. Absolutely never and this is why no one takes you seriously. You'd be the same kraut offing Jews because Hitler sold you on lies.

[t-8900]

Oh ffs you're a leftist boomer this explains everything. I'm sure you believe it was just a weather balloon at Rosewell too. Ffs when your generation is gone legacy media can finally die off and make way for real information. 🤦‍♂️

[goaded]

FFS, anyone can just look further up and see that's exactly what you said. IDGAF if you're repeating propaganda or making it up for yourself, it's still lies.

You: " Also it's a fact Zalenskyy has detained political rivals and halted any future elections. Go look into it yourself. I don't buy the propaganda spewed. Ukraine is also guilty of war crimes in this war now. I doubt they'll be reshowing that clip of Russian pows being castrated "

[Jamie05rhs]

@t-8900 Bro, you're either misremembering or you're just completely uninformed. Obama never started anything with Russia. Romney was even challenging Russia and Obama shut him down and ridiculed him for even suggesting that Russia might be a threat. Obama had his head in the sand the whole time.

[t-8900]

@Jamie05rhs Romney was just a white Obama for a different team. That tells me little. The gov has been trying to change our currency system and make the warhawks and MIC happy. Obama starting shit in Syria and Libya would involve Russia more. The whole great reset and nwo is no longer a conspiracy theory. It's all out in the opened now. Biden admin will devalue the currency as much as possible to manipulate us away from the petrodollar too by the way. This is bad man, very bad. I'm stocking up heavily on food, water, and starting my own garden full of sustainable veggies like potatoes. It's amazing at how many former progressive talking heads are joining a coalition against the left with the right. I can't believe far leftists like Jimmy Dore, Kim Iverson, Trever Noah, and moderates like Bill Maher are finally finally speaking out against the DnC like this and calling it all out. If you go to YT and just watch the Kim Iverson episode on Glenn Becks show and give it a fair shake it makes you think. I was always told by leftists growing up not to listen to the Glenn Beck show but this guy is making hella sense these days and breaking down 40 years of this shit

[t-8900]

@goaded so you're saying the doctor who talked live on air on MSN who said they were castrating Russian pows and then apologized about it never did so? Okay cuz it was only coming right out of the horse's mouth on air. But sure okay

[t-8900]

@goaded look into his detainments for yourself. The courts eventually overuled him. Also what was his approval rating when he took office? Look into it

[goaded]

So you're saying he tried to halt any future elections, but was overruled? Was he overruled before or after you claimed he'd done it? Provide a link to an article about it.

[t-8900]

Okay so you concede to Ukraine also commiting war crimes? And I said he was overuled imprisoning political rivals going back to 2021 onwards

[t-8900]

by the way his approval was 23 percent just saying. Now let's find that article again you requested. Sec

[Jamie05rhs]

Obama didn't "start shit" in Syria. There was already "shit" in Syria. (And a lot of it, I might add.). He simply intervened.

[t-8900]

www.wilsoncenter.org/.../just-all-others-end-zelensky-alternative thehill.com/.../596806-russian-invasion-transforms-zelensky pay attention to what is said in second link. Without this war he'd be toast. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine I also searched for arrests and it said nothing came up. However not long ago the US gov working with big tech did a mass search censorship about this very topic and now I see they have wiped all traces of it. However I did get a chance to both read and watch about it before it was removed. The debacle at duckduckgo highlights the event well. I believe you can still find their announcement on Twitter about removing all the searches from the site. Google and bing had already done so previously. Now you don't have to believe me that's all well and good and it's no great loss to me either way. What's important for me is that I'm not going to war for Ukraine, I will be voting against Biden, and I will continue to share the full transparency of the situation as it presents itself. Granted since Biden has entanglements with the Ukraine gov and his son might get taken down over it it's a safe bet that the tech censorship will endure. That said not all of us will go quietly into the night of this authoritarian push on our free speech and civil liberties.

[t-8900]

@jamie95rhs playing world police is starting shit. Wasn't our war, wasn't our conflict, wasn't our business. Didn't see anywhere in the founding documents where it said America was the world's moral compass and police force. So yeah Obama raised tensions over something that wasn't our business

[Jamie05rhs]

Nope it's not. That's not intellectually honest, sir. As one who protests against the misinformation in the mainstream media (as do I), you in particular should be keenly aware of how important accuracy is when making statements.
So no, the U. S. did NOT *start* that situation.

[goaded]

So no evidence that Zelenskyy did what you claimed. Got it.

"Okay so you concede to Ukraine also commiting war crimes?"
Did I say that? Quote me.

"And I said he was overruled imprisoning political rivals going back to 2021 onwards"
I still haven't seen anything about that because you've not provided any evidence for it at all. He has sanctioned pro-Russian parties in the last few weeks, which is possibly a mistake, but overshadowed by the fact that his country is currently being invaded by Russia.

Your articles about Ukraine disprove your point. Specifically, the corruption has reduced significantly since the revolution, and the country in Europe with a worse record is currently invading Ukraine. He also won his election with 73% of the vote.

[t-8900]

Then now you can concede they did https://youtu.be/15UjP-H2CMA https://youtu.be/d0Y64wmr0Zw

[goaded]

Forgive me, but do either of those obvious propaganda videos discuss the elections in Ukraine that you claimed were "halted"?

[t-8900]

No there is no overshadowing. The DNC has been a pro Chinese party for decades, yet we still allowed them to not only run for office but take office. The Russian sympathizers in gov we're trying to change things through culture. Same as leftists in America have done. Yet in Zelenksys Ukraine if it was his choice then no there is no possibility for anything beyond what HE wants. Maybe that's why you leftists idolize him, because you're the same way, our way or the highway. Going back to 2020 in fact he tried to imprison the last PM. The point here is I don't trust the Biden, Ukraine, or Russia. So I'm not going to back any of them and let them fight their own battles. Americans have seen enough goddamn war. It's time for us to enjoy peace time for ALL of us. Ukraine credibility is as credible as the Miss Ukraine fighting the war bs. It's a crock of shit. And if anyone including you pushes for the us to intervene the blood is on your hands.

[goaded]

So, neither of those obvious propaganda videos discuss the elections in Ukraine that you claimed were "halted".

So you resort to ridiculous distractions.

There's another piece of Russian propaganda on here that tries to blame Zelenskyy for things that happened years before he was elected. You might like to contribute.

Have you ever admired someone and then they let you down? ↗

[Jamie05rhs]

@t-8900 You think the U. S. is really going to remain at peace if Russia is allowed to continue invading their neighbors? Don't deceive yourself, sir. The battle will eventually reach out shores.

[t-8900]

@goaded nice going you just denied warcrimes freely admitted to by the criminals. You are beyond saving

[t-8900]

@janie05rhs then let it come and then we shall see. Ukraine isn't my problem. Yemen isn't my problem. When I say the pledge it's to my nation, not everyone else's. If you and goaded want to go eat bullets for Ukraine then be my guest. Go sign up into a merc force. I doubt either of you will get your hands dirty for Ukrainians so I don't know why y'all continue this nonsense. Don't push another you by generation to go fight and did for your wars. Go fight them yourself

[t-8900]

*another young generation to go fight your wars. If you won't go first and lead by example then sit down, shut up, and let diplomacy take it's course

[Jamie05rhs]

Ohhh, you think this is going to be won by diplomacy! HA! That's cute.

[goaded]

"nice going you just denied warcrimes freely admitted to by the criminals. You are beyond saving "
As far as I can see, you've got 30 seconds of one man apparently (you can't see his lips move) saying he wants doctors to do something, not an ounce of evidence that anyone actually has. That's what makes me think it's propaganda.

If it's true, he'll be charged with war crimes. On the other hand, we have literally millions of refugees and cities smashed to the ground by shelling and bombing.

"When I say the pledge it's to my nation, not everyone else's."
What country is that?

[t-8900]

The original clip was on live TV. Go find it because I saw it in real time. Just because big tech and the gov want this war doesn't mean I'll take any part in it. by the way you gonna sign up if they need volunteers or are you going to hide behind the teenagers and shove them forward like human meat shields? Will you spill blood for Ukraine or not? If not take down the damn colors and stop posing. People in Ukraine aren't going to see your profile in the middle of the bombings and shootouts. Why are you boomers so gung-ho on wars? Iraq and Afghanistan weren't enough for you? The country I pledge to is the USA and ONLY the USA. I don't support globalism and I won't hold hands and sing Kumbaya. I draw my line in the sand on these shores. No force in earth is gonna get me over to another land to fight unless we are struck or we foil a preemptive strike ON US. Even then I'll be in a local militia fighting in and for my zip code.

[goaded]

Is it a war crime to say something shitty on TV while cities of civilians are being indisciminately bombed and shelled? Or just if it actually happens? It's clearly being used as propaganda by the Russians.

Are you planning to apologise for lying about Zalenskyy halting future elections?

[t-8900]

Apologize for what? As I said he tried it and the courts stopped him. What pisses me off is big tech removed that information so no I won't apologize for speaking the truth. Another thing, the dude was a Ukrainian doctor and he said that live on air. We know that many Russian soldiers believed this was a war of liberation. We know many of these soldiers are between 17 and 24. They only realized after they got into the sh*r what was going on. The rocket attacks have mostly come from over the boarders of Russia. Hence committing war crimes against these soldiers is disgusting, especially when many have surrendered while the odds were in their favor on account of the war not being justified. And so the Ukrainians are proving they too are just barbarians like the Russians in regards to this conflict. The Germans and the eastern bloc countries are all very notorious for not respecting pows and torturing and executing them. It's funny we want to prop up Ukraine as some bastion of hope and freedom when really they can't even respect the Geneva convention same as Russia.

[t-8900]

Besides if I'm going to apologize for speaking the truth the least you can do is start apologizing to all those families in Afghanistan you helped kill off

[goaded]

Apologise for what? For lying about Zalenskyy halting future elections. It was right there, in the question: "Are you planning to apologise for lying about Zalenskyy halting future elections?"

As for the rest of your attemt to distract from your lie, that's speculation and, in the case of Germany, ancient history.

[t-8900]

I didn't lie so I won't apologize. You got afghans killed though, that's not a lie. Ukraine is super corrupt and also you aren't Ukrainian but you're enough of a tool to continue to rep their flag. You only care about virtue signaling but not about virtue. You tried to ignore everything else I said and like a child try to get away from all the multiple tropics in our conversation and focus on one, which wasn't a lie. F*ck Ukraine and f*ck Russia, let them fight their own battles. It's no concern of mine. We've got our own country to fix, and either a divorce or civil war coming (hopefully the divorce so we can finally divide up right and left since living with you people is absolutely insufferable at this point). You ask for me to apologize while I'm bleeding money because of your stupid green energy sh*t with Biden. Then absolute nerve of you ingrates

[goaded]

Of course you did. You said "Zalenskyy has detained political rivals and halted any future elections". For some reason I gave you a pass on the first part (probably because I was thinking of the political parties he suspended for at least “the period of the martial law.”, which didn't afaics include locking anyone up), and challenged you on the latter.

Of course, instead of an apology, you could prove that all future elections were halted.

[t-8900]

Apologize to whom? You make no sense. Ofc you'll dodge all my questions though. Dems never have answers to the questions. They only answer with more questions. I stand by what I said, Zalenskyy corrupt and I owe him nothing. You won't help Ukraine but you'll pose. So there's nothing left to say here. Ukraine isn't an American ally, it's a Biden back room c*cks*cker and karma is a b*tch. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Ukraine would have been safer as a Russian ally then a US ally due to proximity. Unlike Biden Putin says and does what he means. In that regard I respect him. The dude takes what he wants. Can't hate on him for that. But I don't have to like his decision either and I don't have to like his attacks on civilians. He's still better than Biden as a leader though

[goaded]

"I stand by what I said..."
So you're an unrepentant liar. Why should I answer any of your questions, even if you asked one? What question haven't I answered?

The people of Ukraine want to live as a free European state, not a vassal of Russia. Why are you supporting Putin over the people who live there? And, incidentally, dictatorships over democracy?

[t-8900]

Oh really? Does that include the Azov forces too? Lmfao.

[t-8900]

So you think the people you killed in Afghanistan didn't want the same freedoms? Point is let people fight their own goddamn battles. USA has its own issues that have not been addressed since Vietnam.

[goaded]

You clearly don't know or care how democracies work, and make really stupid assertions, like I've killed anyone. How? By protesting a war from thousands of miles away?

[t-8900]

You didn't answer my question about the Azov forces, ofc lol. "Back nazis if they are for my narrative" 😂 you are also pro Biden. So you killed afghans. You're and accessory to mass murder, far as I'm concerned. So virtue signal all you want ya fake. It's about propagating the left that you care about, not freedom. CERTAINLY not freedom as the left are very much anti freedom since they are against gun ownership, free speech, and fair representation and pro race baiting

[goaded]

What question did you ask about Azov forces? (And you really ought to learn a little bit of logic so you don't keep making ridiculous fallacies.)

A quick look at the Azov Battalion, and it looks like they're the Ukrainian equivalent of American right wing "militias". Here's the big deal: they're not, never have been and never will be in charge of Ukraine. They're hundreds of people in one small area of Ukraine, and certainly don't justify a full-scale invasion on multiple fronts.

[t-8900]

I wonder if you felt the same way about the Jan 6th "rioters" lol. "I hate Nazis but these Nazis are okay because they support my cause. My point is that Ukraine has lots of corruption and while it may not be grounds for an invasion it's also showing a different side of the Ukrainian people no one wants to talk about. They certainly aren't all " pro-freedom" like you try to claim. Hell except for American Libertarians and Anarchists are anyone really " pro-freedom"? I'd say not

[goaded]

You mean when the Jan 6th rioters were attacking their own government? They were never going to succeed without a lot of support from the Republican party (which, unfortunately, they got).

Ukraine has less corruption now than it did when it was run by Russia, because the people elected politicians to do that (and because the US pushed for it in exchange for aid). If it's taken over by Russia, do you really think there will be less corruption?

[t-8900]

It's still not a country of freedom and western democracy which you try to portray it as. Nor do we have any formal alliance with them. I guess the real question is what exactly do you want done about the war and with what means and by whom?

[goaded]

It's trying to be a country of freedom and western democracy, and, looking at the US right now, it's not doing a very good job of it, at the moment, either. In a functioning democracy, the people, especially the leaders, accept the results of elections without a genuine reason not to.

I think the West is reacting as well as it can, right now, sanctioning Russia, sending aid and taking refugees. We've made mistakes, the biggest being to trust Putin and try to welcome Russia into the fold of peaceful countries.

[t-8900]

Yeah no, don't even go there. 4 years of rioting and burning down cities and b*tching about Trump impeachment. Don't even go there

[msc545]

I am sort of sorry I asked this question - it was meant to be a joke but I see now it isn't at all funny. 😒😒

[exitseven]

It is not out place to have to write a check and besides whatever happened to millions for defense but not one penny for tribute?

[msc545]

So instead we just pay weapons makers.

[exitseven]

Thanks for the MHO😎

[jshm2]

The Javelin is crap though and the Russians stuff costs half as much as is twice as fast.

The Americans have nothing close to the Russians in rocketry or missile systems. Hence why production costs are so high. The Americans are making the same mistake as the Soviet Union. Trying to match Russia rocket for rocket is going to bankrupt the USA.

[jamesgoldman]

They won't be bought, backing down and letting them carry on would cost nothing because there are no troops or equipment to extract

[msc545]

You think they have no troops or equipment there?

[jamesgoldman]

The US don't do they?

[msc545]

Probably they do.

[Jamie05rhs]

What do you mean, "buy the Russians off"? Are you referring to a bribe?

[msc545]

Yes!

[Jamie05rhs]

Ain't gonna work, homes. You don't reward people for acting up. That will just encourage more aggressive behavior.

[msc545]

It was sort of a joke

[Jamie05rhs]

Ohhh

[AngelMegumin]

Russians won't be bought off. It could be seen during the Afghanistan war. Thrley poured enourmous amount of resources there with little to no return.

[AngelMegumin]

They*

[msc545]

We could try. They love money.

[AngelMegumin]

You might, but it would give them an opportunity to claim, that West is ready to sell Ukraine, use it to demoralize Ukranian people. It might worsen the situation, which is an achievement at this point.

[goaded]

Trillions.

[Thereisnoway]

I do not know