Should NATO and the EU expand east?

[robocop666]

this is what the war in Ukraine is about? Russia are trying to stop NATO expansion to their borders. Also more countries means more political divide.

[Anonymous]

President Putin made a big mistake invading Ukraine and walked right into America's trap.
1. Now America has shown how weak the Russian military is.
2. Countries that were afraid to join nato b4 are now willing,
3. The US is making huge money selling arms to NATO countries.
4. The US is making huge profits supplying them with oil/gas.
5. China who has been getting too big for their boots in the south China Sea is now questioning the strength of their military as most of their equipment is based on Russian design or is Russian.
6. Buyers of Russian military equipment like India will having seen the failures of Russian tech will stop buying Russian military equipment and switch to equipment NATO countries.
7. US Congress will now approve more military spending for the us military meaning the US though already far ahead of Russia by 30 years will advance further while Russia stagnate further.
8. With Russia losing in Ukraine America through its NATO allies will control the Black sea and be able to move the US navy into it fof the first time in 100 years.
9. With control of the black sea region the US will be able to connect through Georgia into the caspian sea for the first time even establishing an airforce and naval base there.
10. With access to the caspian sea thanks to Georgia the US will be able to access central asia which is rich in untapped minerals and oil/gas which will undermine Russian oil/gas profits even further as the US build pipelines into Europe and sell all manner of manufactured goods and US companies build the economy and infrastructure of central asia.

Putin has two choices in Ukraine
1. Continue fighting and the weakness of the Russian military to be shown to the world and Russia bleed men and resources that they can not afford and the Russian economy crumble due to sanctions and the US benefit massively from the conflict over the years.
2. Pull out of Ukraine and Putin will be overthrown or have to step down due to defeat in Ukraine. No use setting yourself up as a strong man and military leader if you lose a war.

Regardless Russia will end up being a pariah state like Iran or end up being a client state with a government approved by the US.
The war in Ukraine is about US economic and global intrests.

[Snsl153]

Simple answer: no. Long, complex and nuanced answer: HELL no.
Why does NATO even exist? Why wasn't it dissolved back in the late 80's/early 90's, once the "threat" from the USSR vanished, because the USSR itself disappeared? What is it even FOR?
The EU at least has some kind of purpose, even if it's often not very well articulated.

[ChrisMaster69]

It’s join the school yard bully (s) or join the other kids, who rely on safety in numbers.

If the school yard bully wants to come over to your house and rape your sister, then you have to let him, as you are on your own and he will beat you up.

The other kids don’t really care what you do at home, and definitely don’t want your sister.

The events in Crimea are where Putin has listened to what his intelligence people have been getting fed on social media by people upset at their governments, then assumed its all true, not realising a bit like GaG one fuckwit, will create multiple accounts to push their story.
this all led to an invasion of epic proportions against (he was told) a country ready to welcome the Russians with open arms…

If the Ukrainian people were so ready, why has the East (who are ALL supposed to be pro Russian not simply stepped aside and even joined the Russians, it would be impossible for Ukraine to defend against the Russians with all these pro Russian civilians.

NATO was pretty much ticking over on very basic funding, with most projects being new technology.

Even before Covid, NATO exercises were being cut back, there was a push by France to have a Euro Corps and simply replace NATO.

NATO was not pushing east, it was simply getting asked by countries if the could join it, and get protection from the school yard bully.

There was never really a push for Sweden or Poland to join NATO, now however there is.

What Putin went to war over did not exist, it was made up by false intelligence, false reports, listening to social media.

Now he has invaded, it very much does exist, all eyes are turned to Russia and other countries to see who walks over to join the school yard bully.

Defence expenditure across the board has went up, new projects that would never have received funding, have been approved.

Putin has done something so counter productive it’s unreal.

[ibodi]

I think should not be if EU and Nato can not tell what is right or wrong.
and as Ursula von der Leyen goes to india saying to india that can cooperate with environment in the future if dont support russia. Europe would not listen to india's problem they will blame india's pollution always to "cooperate" with it.
NATO is like it maybe, if see the war still determine on weapon to negotiation.
Eastern european of course anti communism to support Taiwan without seeing historical background. Therefore, can not trust them.

[jshm2]

Nope., Both need to be broken up, if anything, as they are becoming as bad as the Soviet Union.

NATO is simply the USA's hegemony and battering ram. The EU has lost it's way as a conglomerate.

But both need to realise that they have a colonial, expansionist and slave history that Russia doesn't. Since the second world war ended, the West has been involved in more crimes and beaches of international law, than Russia.

Also, Russia hasn't been tweaking and installing bases on other countries to point at the USA like the USA has to Russia.

All in all, The USA is being the entitled asshole.

[tartaarsaus]

NATO, sure. If countries want to join NATO to look for protection and they are able to meet all the conditions, why not?


With respect to EU, only if these Eastern European countries are able to meet all the requirements with respect to institutional and economic development. The EU isnalready facing immense issues due to Poland and Hungary, and we shouldn’t risk more of those states joining the EU.

[tartaarsaus]

Note that I don’t really care what Russia thinks of this. They don’t have the balls to attack NATO and their economy and industrial capacity is being crushed anyway.

So if Ukraine, Finland and Sweden wanna join? Why not? If Moldova wants to join, sure.

[robocop666]

more countries means more divide. Also they allow countries in who should not be allowed in so this causes problems.

[tartaarsaus]

Based on what are countries allowed in that shouldn’t be allowed in?

And not really, a bigger group of countries can be unified. For example, adding Sweden and Finland doesn’t weaken anything about NATO’s resolve with respect to Ukraine

[robocop666]

turkey invaded greece and france protected them. Also many countries argue with the rules

[tartaarsaus]

Eh, what? Turkey hasn’t invaded Greece.

More importantly, this quite literally does not matter at all. Whether there may be conflict between Greece and Turkey is not even remotely any reasonable argument to say that d. g. Finland or Sweden being brought into NATO will cause division.

Also, not really, the rules are pretty clear with respect to NATO. Also, ‘arguing’ doesn’t mean it will cause division. These arguments of you against it are just utterly stupid

[Lord_Saddler]

China and Russia must send troops and nukes to the Solomon Islands, Nicaragua, Venezuela and Cuba. And then we will see if the US and NATO will like it.

[goaded]

Until the invasion, there were something like 40 NATO people in Poland. Big threat.

[Lord_Saddler]

Yawn.

[goaded]

While we're at it, anti-missile missiles aren't a threat to anyone not planning to fire missiles in their general direction.

[Lord_Saddler]

@goaded Source: Radio "Free" Europe.

[goaded]

It's not NATO expanding East, it's independent countries choosing between democratic West and dictatorship East. Belarus chose the East, Ukraine chose the West. Did NATO invade Belarus?

[Lord_Saddler]

"choosing between plutocratic West and..."

There, I fixed it for ya.

[goaded]

@Lord_Saddler Fair enough, but at least there's the possibility to peacefully choose a different government. You can't even say the word "war" in public without being arrested in Russia.

[robocop666]

and the police search your phones randomly to see if your going to a protest. The whole country is leaving and going south to central asia and turkey to leave.

However Putin just delcared war on ukraine so I guess its a war now

[Dargil]

I think they should stay as they are and arm to the teeth. By expanding to the east, we encourage war.

[NamerOfStars]

And JUSTIFY Russian (and more worryingly, Chinese) militarism? No. Let their neighbors band together if they like; I don't want WW3 to happen in my lifetime.

[OddBeMe]

Worst event in Europe: Brexit.
Worst event in east Europe: war.

Yeah.

[Snsl153]

Brexit was the best decision the British people ever made! They're once again an independent nation, not under the thumb of the tyrannical EU.

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 they already were. The EU was a trade Union they no longer have access to. So bye bye British economy.

[robocop666]

its blackmails countries to join so it can fuck them up

[Snsl153]

The EU isn't "just a trade union", it's an attempt by power-mad bureaucrats in Brussels to create a European superstate. If it were just about trade, they wouldn't have their own flag, own anthem, and now many want it to have its own army. Come on, don't be so naive.

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 Brits woke up one day and realized they can’t have everything they want. If they want to trade with all the EU nations and have their workers able to travel in and out of those countries, then vice versa.

[Snsl153]

Okay, so? That was a "sacrifice" they were more than willing to make in order to get some of their freedom back.

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 we’ll see how UK does in the next few years.

[Snsl153]

It's already thriving.

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 I really hope you’re right. I don’t want uk to crumble. But economically, Brexit is just bad.
www.theguardian.com/.../could-uk-be-heading-for-a-recession

[Snsl153]

Says 'The Guardian'. Right, they're not biased at all. Of course not. Do yourself a big favour and stay away from those people.

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 oh god. Do you ever just read the content and do the homework? I could post research that shows the guardian as one of the most centered, but serisouly just read the content.

[Snsl153]

You think 'The Guardian' is in the centre? Oh come on, you CANNOT be serious about that! It's about as left-wing as Joseph Stalin.

[OddBeMe]

@Snsl153 mmkay…

[robocop666]

the EU stole all of the UK's fisheries and Irelands too. They dont tell you this. Also poor countries used to be dirt cheap and are now as expensive as the EU. It made prices raise by a few hundred percent. They dont tell you this

[OddBeMe]

How do they steal fisheries?

And dirt poor countries are now more expensive? Wha-huh?

[robocop666]

they dont tell you this do they? fisheries are divided by country not what each country has naturally. So countries with lots of water have to give their fisheries to countries with none.

Also poor countries which were dirt cheap to live in such as moldova (eu free trade agreement not yet in the EU) and Croatia used to be buttons to live in. Then when the EU came along the prices rose to the same as us. so poor people live on nothing and have to have west Europe cost of living. Once you join prices skyrocket.

these two things you are not told about.

[OddBeMe]

So there are factories on the British shoreline that process fish that are owned by foreign countries? Like embassies or something?

[robocop666]

no the fishing rights. IN britain and Ireland and other countries you cannot fish in your own waters but germany can. and its against the law for politicians to tell us this. You are only allowed to tell the good but not the bad.

Also Ireland used ot have low corporate tax rates. The EU got rid of this. They dont tell us this either.

[OddBeMe]

Oh fishing rights, that makes more sense. But seems like that could have been accomplished without nuking every EU trade deal...

[Cubus]

NATO - yes.
EU - no

[robocop666]

the EU is a total load of bollox I wish it didn't exist

[Snsl153]

NATO - no.
EU - maybe.

[Cubus]

@Snsl153 I think opposite. EU is a piece of trash.

But I see you are not from Europe, so you may not know about it.

[robocop666]

I am from Europe and it sucks

[Cubus]

If I may ask: what country?

[robocop666]

Ireland, its intrusive and ruins everything

[Snsl153]

Cubus - well, I was born in England (Lancashire), so does that count?

[Cubus]

@Snsl153 Depends how long you lived there.