What should the punishment be for a political party that uses fake electors?

[OddBeMe]

[Stoner710]

Punishment should be death.

frankly I think we should be incredibly authoritarian when it comes to the people in government. For example when you become a senior to representative or president governor mayor or frankly any sort of government position especially elected one’s you should have a bomb planted in your head, and the moment that politician lies I don’t care if he’s lying about whether or not he likes his wife’s cooking or not if he doesn’t like his wife’s cooking and lies about it his head explodes.

The general population like me and you who are not politicians should be treaded as libertarian as the politicians are treated as politicians authoritatively. This hopefully would get rid of corruption. And if humans are incapable of having a government without corruption and then humans should not have a government. It would be better for the Hatfields and McCoys to kill each other off then do you have a government. Remember government is the number one cause of death in the world whether it’s based off of resources or religion. Government is only people to have the ability to send people to war and get them killed primarily the poor. So it would be better for The Hatfields and McCoys to kill each other off then it will be to have a government. (I’m using Hatfield and McCoys and an example because there a well known feuding families it could be anyone. It would be better for Bob to kill jim and Jim’s brother to kill Bob then it would be for the government to send Bob and jim to go skill Vladimir and Ivan.)

[Anonymous]

Nothing happens to fake electors just as nothing usually happens to faithless electors.

Its really an impossible crime because the State clearly picks the electors and tells Congress.

If there is any question Congress can call the State who has compete authority to dictate who is their electors and generally how they should vote.

So a 'fake elector' is really no different than a 'fake wife' in that YOU are choosing to ignore your real wife in favor of anther woman whom you know is not your wife.

As such Congress would be the only party that could commit the crime by willfully choosing people other than those choose by the state to represent said state.

[goaded]

Don't be daft. The fake electors are the ones that forged official documents in order to defraud the voters of the state. In your analogy, it would be like someone pretending to be your wife to steal your money.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded Electors are actual people NOT documents. They are chosen by their state, only congress is capable of choosing to recognize someone not soo chosen by said state rather than calling the state to verify.

[goaded]

Do you think there were actual people in the box of electoral votes Pence was due to count, or what?

The fake electors were using forged documentation to pretend to be the electors for their states. They didn't have to have their votes counted, the idea was that their existence would allow Pence to declare that their states' results were contested and he could throw out the results from those states. Once neither side had an outright majority or electoral votes, it would have fallen to representatives in the House to vote, two votes per state. Republicans controlled enough states to have the votes to impose Trump on the country for another term.

It was totally illegal and just one of the mechanisms they tried to steal the presidency from the people.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded The results were being contested, as for the votes cast Congress knew exactly which ones were from which states and which states were being contested and how.

There were no forged documents, if congress wants to question the results they simply have to go back to the state.
The election only goes to the house if a state votes for a 3rd party or fails to vote at all preventing a majority.

[goaded]

Republicans forged certificates of ascertainment from five separate states. They were all nearly identical, which points to a coordinated effort to defraud the American people of their voting rights.

[OddBeMe]

@goaded but watch him go nuts over Biden’s laptop.

[goaded]

The laptop repair man is apparently offering copies of the disc, so either it doesn't contain some of the worst things that were alleged to have been on there (child pornography), or he's admitting to posessing and distributing it.

[Opinion Owner]

@OddBeMe @goaded I see you still don't understand the concern about the laptop isn't really about Hunter's issues but rather his the documented work taking bribes for his father.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded Again that is expected behavior during a contested election not a crime. The State decides what electors are the real ones.

[goaded]

They did decide what electors are the real ones. Then Republicans decided to forge documents to pretend other people were the real electors and have their states' votes thrown out. How can you keep ignoring the documented facts of lies, forgeries, and fraud?

[goaded]

There were forged documents sent in from seven states, in all, with electors who supposedly voted for Trump/Pence. You can see them for yourself, here: s3.documentcloud.org/.../...tes-nara-21-0174-a.pdf

"The fake electoral certificates were assembled by groups of Trump supporters in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin who sought to replace the valid presidential electors from their state — who had been chosen by voters in free and fair elections — with bogus slates of pro-Trump electors."
www.americanoversight.org/american-oversight-obtains-seven-phony-certificates-of-pro-trump-electors

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded Anyone can make any document they want that right is protected under the 1st amendment. The act of electors casting an electoral vote can only be carried out by the State who alone decides what documents they choose to cast as votes.
If it didn't come from the State's chosen party it wasn't a vote of said state period.

Going back 60+ years now it is standard practice in a contested election for both potential electors to casts their votes as to allow the State time to resolve disputes and choose which one of them is their electors.

This is not illegal it is normal procedure. The fact that several states violated their own election laws in 2020 to allow large scale unverifiable mail in voting such as in PA did in fact literally put the question of which electors were the chosen one in dispute.

[goaded]

OMG, so the first amendment allows you to print $100 bills? Or fake deeds to your house? How about if I take out a loan based on those documents?

It's fraud, and it's illegal.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded Actually it does, anyone can print a $100 bill you just can't force someone to buy it. That is the crime.
Likewise you can print any fake deed you want as long as you don't try to use it to take property that doesn't belong to you.
It is in fact the action of deception as processed for thief that is the crime not the fabrication/speech.

In the case of said documents submitted to congress in full knowledge of which ones where sent by the State. There was no possibility of said fraud, and if there were it would be Congress's fraud alone., for congress alone would have chosen the documents not sent by the state.

What congress could have done is ask the state to verify which one is correct, and wait for said verification.

[goaded]

"you can print any fake deed you want as long as you don't try to use it to take property that doesn't belong to you."
And that's exactly what the Republicans were doing when they sent the documents to congress and NARA.
"That is the crime."

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded Obviously given both congress's knowledge of which is which and ability to obtain such knowledge that is not something that even could be done if they wanted to.

Congress alone would have to deliberately choose the wrong electors and therefore congress alone would be guilty of such a crime.

[goaded]

The forged documents were part of a coordinated conspiracy to steal the presidency.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded If Trump wanted to "steal the presidency" all he had to do is have the army arrest congress and fire any officer that refused to follow orders.

This is what happens in other presidential systems that fall into dictatorship and it was entirely within A president's effective power given the centralized standing army congress maintains to do the same.
That Trump made no such effort, clearly he preferred a peaceful retire and try again to forcing the issue.
Unfortunately as we no longer can guarantee any president such an option thanks to the mar-largo raid it is all but certain a future president will try to do precisely this.

[goaded]

"If Trump wanted to "steal the presidency" all he had to do is have the army arrest congress and fire any officer that refused to follow orders.

This is what happens in other presidential systems that fall into dictatorship and it was entirely within A president's effective power given the centralized standing army congress maintains to do the same."

Congratulations! You've identified the reason that politicians and military personnel swear an oath to uphold the CONSTITUTION, not to obey a leader. The military would all be expected to refuse to obey an unlawful order, and that would be the most illegal order ever given.

No wonder you don't think the constitution is just in the way.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded "Congratulations! You've identified the reason that politicians and military personnel swear an oath to uphold the CONSTITUTION, not to obey a leader. The military would all be expected to refuse to obey an unlawful order, and that would be the most illegal order ever given."

There is of course the problem, Few if anyone who takes the oath upholds it. Indeed Oath keepers which is to say anyone who follows an understanding of the constituent separate from their leadership are regarded by the goverment as "Extremist".

So what really happens in this country and every other constitutional system is they are simply dismissed and replaced with someone willing to follow orders. This is why in every dictatorship the oath did not end up being much of a problem.

[goaded]

You don't even think that the constitution allows the government to make laws. And the Oath Keepers have just been found guilty of seditious conspiracy for trying to steal the presidency against the rules of the constitution.

[Opinion Owner]

@goaded The Federal Constitution allows permits the Federal goverment only to make law in very few and define areas of a forign nature. Even then On top of that limited authority and the more general authority they might have in Federal districts like Washington D. C.
There are broad exceptions such as laws against freedom of speech (including but not limited to seditious conspiracy), and laws against keeping and baring arms.

Even In Washington D. C. Congress has no legitimate power to make any such law. In the States congress has almost no power at all to make any domestic law. The Federal Goverment was created by the States to address Foreign policy issues protecting the state's right to govern themselfs.

NOT to itself become involved in such domestic issues, nor to prohibit the political process even in the districts it controls by curtailing free speech. Unfortunately politicians rarely see a power they don't want over others.

[goaded]

For two centuries now, SCOTUS has disagreed with you about what laws the federal government is entitled to make. It also respected precedent.

[SpringValley]

Any type of election fraud should be punishable by death.

[OddBeMe]

Agreed. So who you got left in the GOP?

[SpringValley]

I don't understand your question.

[dustybiker]

Remove the pinkie digit.

[OddBeMe]

That’s my wife’s favorite!

[dustybiker]

Good woman there.

[goaded]

I'm afraid it will simply be exposure and re-election based on their willingness to break the rules for their party. All the Republican lawmakers who voted against certifying results based on nothing but lies should be sanctioned, if not indicted, but there were 147 of them.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/us/politics/republicans-against-certification.html

[Sevenpointfive]

execute them publicly in the town square!

[OddBeMe]

What happened to the guillotine? Better show than hangings. Just see blood instead of them pissing themselves.

I read inmates wear rubber underwear when marching into the execution chamber.

[Sevenpointfive]

they wouldn't sharpen the blade often enough so it became more brutality than an execution and people didn't enjoy it as much

[OddBeMe]

Heads half hanging off and they beg to be killed?

[Sevenpointfive]

i'd personally rather be put in the coliseum against a gladiator. i'd have a chance at least

[OddBeMe]

Get some sport out of it. Betting helps the economy.

[Texaskid1]

20 lashings should teach them a lesson.

[OddBeMe]

Can’t wait to see trump get lashed. At least not in a popular vote…

[red_knight]

Walk of shame like GOT

[OddBeMe]

I would rather them just get away with it if that’s the choice lol

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe it really isn't a problem or a crime congress should know exactly whom the electors are and if there is any question they can call the State to verify whom they are and how they should vote.

The state has absolute authority to dictate this, so really it's not even in congress's power to question the state's judgement.

If a State sends 2 sets of electors then both are legitimate and Congress should either call the states to pick one or ignore them all together.

But no a random person can't just show up and claim to be an elector the State has to send them or they are NOT electors and congress SHOULD verify that fact or they are NOT doing their job.

[OddBeMe]

@monorprise Do you ever get tired bending over so far backward for your politicians?

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe The truth requires no flexibility.
FYI: Electors are people not necessarily politicians at all.

[OddBeMe]

@monorprise You’ve been saying that a lot. Doesn’t mean the gop hasn’t been trying to steal the election.

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe the GOP will have to get into the game of "Stealing" elections in theses states. Unfortunately its unlikely that such power can be contained and the people of said states will lose control of them.
In the long run however once the left becomes convenience their own fraud prone rules are no longer advantageous to them it may be possible to get enough people together to overwhelm such system and restore a verifiable one.
If you keep elections confined to the State level otherwise the elite politicians selected by such machines will be too powerful.

[OddBeMe]

@monorprise “their own fraud prone rules”…. like voter IDs, limiting voting days and early voting, and saying without the least bit of evidence that mail-in-ballots are fraudulent. Sht like that?

[monorprise]

@OddBeMe
1: Voter ID is the only way to verify your only voting once.
2: Limited voting dates limits the number of days a person could vote fraudulently (with or without ID) as well as given all candidates an equal opportunity to make their case.
3: Whether or not you agree plenty of evidence exist. Mail in ballots give fraudsters a very large amount of time and little to no oversight to commit fraud. It is nearly impossible to verify 1 man 1 vote with Mail in voting.

[OddBeMe]

There is no evidence of fraud, period. If there is, provide it.

I could limit the number of days I could be killed in the park by not jogging. That’s the dumbest argument yet.

And voter ID is solution to a problem that doesn’t exist and just adds more barriers to voting, which is the only way the GOP can win. That’s the only fraud.

[Cedman]

Being unable to run in the next election cycle.

[monorprise]

Electors are people usually party loyalist chosen by a state. There is no such thing as a 'fake elector' just non-electors and electors. If congress has any questions on which electors are legitimate they can call the state. It's entirely on congress to do that just like its on you to know whom your kid is.