Did you know that Trump might be a hoarder?

[msc545]

If you think he isn't read the indictment (linked in my other question) and see if you still think that.

Updates

+1 y

storage.courtlistener.com/.../...sd.648653.3.0.pdf

[abc3643]

I do think he is something of a hoarder and that doesn't surprise me and it's not necessarily bad if you are smart about it.
I thought he wasn't.
But, after reading the indictment, he knew what he was doing.
He isn't going to at the GOP Convention next summer. He'll be in Leavenworth.
www.washingtonpost.com/.../...731-8594c1f7261d.pdf

[msc545]

Or in ADX Florence in Colorado doing very hard time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence

[abc3643]

aka SuperMax.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Yes, by reading that info, it looks like Trump is a hoarder and got a serious mental illness.

[msc545]

Trump has Anti-Social Personality Disorder and Bipolar 1 Disorder.

[Dargil]

Thanks, Doc.

[msc545]

@Dargil you're welcome

[Dargil]

Since this is clearly a leftist Banana Republic clown show, if the case is not thrown out, I'll wait for the inevitable appeal before I form a final opinion. But I will say this. He will never give up and I plan to vote for him in the primary and in the election if he is nominated. I want him to have his REAL day in court from the voters and then disbands the FBI and scatters the Washington swamp to metropolises like Yazoo City, Mississippi and Flippen, Georgia, Bangs, Texas, Concrete, Washington, Coward, South Carolina, Uncertain, Texas, Hooker, Oklahoma and Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. Give them a city they can be proud of, even if they can't do expensive lunches any more.
Trump will free most J6 political prisoners and undo Biden's EX-O's the first day.
I don't care if he is wearing stipes at his inauguration. All this nonsense must stop.

[GoodGuyBreakingBad]

Thank you for MHO :)

[Meagainbutleavesoon]

Hey I was wondering whether you could help me with something, I wanted to private message you but i am unable to becasue I don't have enough points. Do you think you could PM me so I could send you a message. I think you may need to also follow me if you wanted to PM me.

[Daniela1982]

So you were here before and came back again? Are you nuts? You escaped the nuthouse and are returning?

[msc545]

Left you a message -

[Anonymous]

He was thd president at the time so it was OK, not like he was the vice president or secretary of state

[strateguy632]

reminder indict is fancy word for accuse and sometimes accusations are false or politicly motivated same as the political motivation to remind people of stuff, unrelated to policy, only to make certain candidates seem ugly. like the name calling "orange face" and worse. pathetic how low trump opposition stoop.

[goaded]

"Sometimes". Not this time. Try reading it.

[goaded]

Yes, he's a hoarder, but that's a bit like saying bank robbers are hoarders of other people's money. They want it, they take it, they don't care that they know it's illegal.

[exitseven]

I agree , the boxes in the bahroom waas a little weird. Since they were declassifies, not a crime though.

[goaded]

Of course it's a crime. So was keeping the documents that belong to the government in the first place, lying to the FBI, and otherwise obstructing justice.

"Willful Retention of National Defense Information" which is a violation of United States Code Title 18 Chapter 37 Section 793 Paragraph e.
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
18 U. S. Code Part I - CRIMES
18 U. S. Code Chapter 37 - ESPIONAGE AND CENSORSHIP
18 U. S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

"(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it"

[exitseven]

@goaded After seeing the boxes in the bathroom I have to wonder if the FBI did not stage all that when they did the raid. They spread documents all over the floor and took pictures of them for the fake news. What kind on law enforcement agency does that>? (this is a rhetorical question.)

[msc545]

@exitseven Of course you immediately jump to something that absolves Trump and incriminates the people you don't like and is supported by NO evidence at all. You might as well have said it wasn't really Trump's house at all, and instead, it was a fake duplicate house the FBI built to take photos in so they could accuse Trump.

Do you see the problem here?

[exitseven]

Do you see how unprofessional it was for the FBI to stage those documents and photograph it and give it to the media? They were acting as Joe Biden's campaign staff. They were trying to influence an election. That is what this is all about. Biden left documents he was not authorized to legally possess in his garage on the floor next to his corvette. The democrat DOJ has nothing to say about this. they don't even bother to cover it up because they know it will be stonewalled in the media. If it starts to grow legs the democrats will find another r50 stooges to say it is all Russian disinformation.

[msc545]

What about the aliens that landed at Mar-a-Largo and helped the FBI? what about them?

[exitseven]

Trump does not strike me as being the kind of guy that would keep piles of boxes in his bathroom. During this whole ordeal all he talked about was the closet that he kept the boxes in that the FBI told him to put a better lock on it which he did. It seems funny that all of a sudden the boxes suddenly end up in the bathroom. Is this so he could so some reading while he was on the potty? The whole thing sounds like a frame up. The FBI went in there in the middle of the night and kicked evertyone out so they alone had the run of the place, They could plant evidence and they could also stage a fake photo pretty easily.

[goaded]

Why don't you just read the indictment?

[exitseven]

@goaded this indictment will fall apart in front of a serious judge. It is done because Trump is ahead in all the polls and the democrats have to make sure he does not get elected next year. So far all they have done is shoot themselves in the foot. Only you and a few others don't understand this. this.

[goaded]

https://youtu.be/lsLWptxRNkg

It will be interesting to see how the judge behaves this time, considering she was told by an appeals court that she had no right to demand the things she did, back when the case was a civil one.

"On December 1 [2022], the Eleventh Circuit ordered the case to be dismissed because Cannon "improperly exercised equitable jurisdiction" over it. The Eleventh Circuit stated that Trump needed to show that the case met all four criteria under the Richey test for equitable jurisdiction over lawsuits for seized materials, but failed to do so for any criteria. The Eleventh Circuit found that under Cannon, "the district court stepped in with its own reasoning" multiple times to argue in favor of Trump, sometimes even taking positions that Trump would not argue before the appeals court. The Eleventh Circuit also found that when Trump did not explain what materials he still needed returned, or why, the "district court was undeterred by this lack of information"...

Cannon had Trump's case "dismissed for lack of jurisdiction", after the Eleventh Circuit instructed her to dismiss."

[msc545]

@exitseven Seriously? I ask because it is hard to fathom a smart guy like you being so blind in this one area.

[exitseven]

All you have to ask yourself is if Trump was not so far ahead in all the polls would they even be doing this? It has backfired the last two times and Trump had got a bump in the polls and received even more donations to his re-election fund. The American public (well most of it anyway) is not stupid. They know a hit job when they see it. Especially since Biden is guilty of the same thing and ypu don't hear a peep about it.

[msc545]

@exitseven There was audio surveillance by the FBI - Trump's house was apparently bugged. They have tapes of him telling people to put the boxes in various rooms.

Had you read the Indictment, you would know this.

[exitseven]

@msc545 So the FBI had an illegal bug in the home of a former president and nobody had been arrested for that too. We really do have a two tiered justice system.

[goaded]

They're the FBI, part of their job is to bug criminals (or have informants wear a wire). Why do you think Trump should be an exception.

Besides that, at least one of the recordings used in evidence against Trump was recorded by journalists he was talking to, knowing it was being recorded. I don't know if that's the one @msc545 was referring to.

[msc545]

@exitseven you don't know that they didn't have a warrant for that bug. That is just as plausible as your fantasies about the FBI "staging" things if not more so.

[exitseven]

How does the FBI get a warrent to run surveillance on a former president? The democrats would not let a little thing like a warrant stop them from framing the leading candidate in the next election. It did not stop them from spying on his campaign.

[msc545]

I think, given the context, the FBI would have little trouble getting a warrant from a court. They wouldn't risk the whole thing by doing illegal stuff because it was more convenient. These are professionals and they are not reckless or stupid.

[exitseven]

Yes since Biden runs the DOJ they can shop for a judge that will sign off on anything they want.

[msc545]

Actually, they were assigned a Judge who heavily favored Trump in a prior case to the point she got her hand slapped by the Appellate Court...

www.cnn.com/.../index.html

[Dargil]

Doesn't matter. The documents were Declassified just by taking them out of the white house because he was president at the time. The purpose of this clown show is to get Trump as usual. This time it's because there's an awful lot of guilt flying around with Biden the Department of Justice and the fbi. All this is just more distraction.

[Dargil]

Do you really think he isn't read the indictment?

[msc545]

LOL. How long will you stick to that absurd defense?

[msc545]

@Dargil He cannot read, and that indictment is about 80 pages long which is why you didn't or couldn't read it either.

[abc3643]

@Dargil, I had a long response written the help you understand something by my machine froze up.

So, I'll just the "Reader's Digest version" (Do you know that idiom? You might be too young to be aware of it.)

You wrote:
"The documents were Declassified just by taking them out of the white house because he was president at the time. "

Ex-President Trump faces 37 counts. The first 31 counts are all "Willful Retention of National Defense Information" which is a violation of United States Code Title 18 Chapter 37 Section 793 Paragraph e.
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
18 U. S. Code Part I - CRIMES
18 U. S. Code Chapter 37 - ESPIONAGE AND CENSORSHIP
18 U. S. Code § 793 - Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information
(e) Whoever having unauthorized possession of, access to, or control over any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, or note relating to the national defense, or information relating to the national defense which information the possessor has reason to believe could be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of any foreign nation, willfully communicates, delivers, transmits or causes to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted, or attempts to communicate, deliver, transmit or cause to be communicated, delivered, or transmitted the same to any person not entitled to receive it, or willfully retains the same and fails to deliver it to the officer or employee of the United States entitled to receive it
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793

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(more)

[abc3643]

That statute is rooted in the Espionage Act of 1917 which predates the classification system. In other words, it doesn't matter what the document is classified as as long as it is "national defense information". Notice the text of the statute... no mention of classification.

Trump faces 31 counts because they found 31 documents that fall under "national defense information". 30 of them have some form of classification marking. 1 has no classification markings whatsoever.

However, once he stopped being President, he was obligated to surrender these documents under the Presidential Records Act.
He didn't do that and that's why he got hit with those 31 counts.
However, what is worse for him is the other 6 counts which, collectively, are engaging in illegal deception to avoid giving back those documents.

[Dargil]

Indefinitely, since it's true.

[Daniela1982]

Biden took stuff too but of course everyone ignores that.

[abc3643]

@Daniela1982 That's because there's a world of difference.

Former Vice President (Hang) Pence and Former Vice President, Now President Biden did have documents in their homes. However, in the wake of what happened to Former President Trump, both men had their legal teams check out their homes for such documents and, yes, some were found and immediately handed back. These men took unilateral action to find the documents and return them. Furthermore, they've been completely open and honest and willing to help authorities regarding this issue. So, there are no crimes because there's no "mens rea" which is necessary for a crime.

If Trump had behaved similarly, this would have been a non-issue. His problem is that he was deliberately obstructive and deceptive to avoid turning over what he had back to the Federal Government.

That's the critical difference in this case. And, unfortunately for Trump, there is significant evidence of his obstruction and deception and knowing that he possessed documents which would be considered "national defense information" and thus violate The Espionage Act of 1917 (which is now US Code Title 18 Chapter 37).

[richardcory]

Why do you think documents are declassified when they are removed from a secure facility?

[OddBeMe]

Yeah from what I’ve read he hates paper trails so I’m not surprised. He can’t swallow 1000s, which was his technique.

[Anonymous]

If you're going to get Trump in trouble over this then go after all the presidents from the last 50 years including Biden because they did the same thing if not worse. Trump at least had permission from the FBI to keep those documents there, with their own lock that they had to unlatch to confiscate because the department of injustice told them to.

Otherwise I will never take this indictment as anything other than political theater.

[RealMarek]

Biden is a hoarder too. He keeps hoarded classified documents in his garage. Nothing will happen to him though.

[abc3643]

Former Vice President (Hang) Pence and Former Vice President, Now President Biden did have documents in their homes. However, in the wake of what happened to Former President Trump, both men had their legal teams check out their homes for such documents and, yes, some were found and immediately handed back. These men took unilateral action to find the documents and return them. Furthermore, they've been completely open and honest and willing to help authorities regarding this issue. So, there are no crimes because there's no "mens rea" which is necessary for a crime.

If Trump had behaved similarly, this would have been a non-issue. His problem is that he was deliberately obstructive and deceptive to avoid turning over what he had back to the Federal Government.

That's the critical difference in this case. And, unfortunately for Trump, there is significant evidence of his obstruction and deception and knowing that he possessed documents which would be considered "national defense information" and thus violate The Espionage Act of 1917 (which is now US Code Title 18 Chapter 37).

[RealMarek]

@abc3643 the president can declassify documents at any time for any reason. Any law preventing him from doing so is an unconstitutional violation of executive power. Furthermore, if you believe Biden and Pence didn’t know what “classified” means, I have a bridge to sell you.

[msc545]

Not enough to make him a hoarder.

[RealMarek]

Lol, maybe not. My ex was a hoarder. It sucked.

[abc3643]

The classification of documents is irrelevant to the charges facing President Trump.
That's because the Espionage Act of 1971 pre-dates any classification.

What is relevant is if the document - classified or not - contains "national defense information". That's it.

30 of the 31 documents for which President Trump is accused of violating the Espionage Act (specifically, 18 USC Section 793(e)) were classified, but the 31st was not. Yet President Trump is charged regarding that document even though it is unclassified because all that mattered is that it contained national defense information.

Trump's problems aren't with the documents, per se. It is his later 6 charges of unlawful obstruction and deceptive actions that are the real problems for him.

He has a real problem because the DOJ is likely going to make a deal with Nauta over his 6 charges in exchange for being a witness against Trump for those same 6 charges and the other 31.

Given that President Trump turns 77 this week, if he is convicted of even one of these charges, he is likely to die in prison unless he gets a pardon. Of course, if he is convicted in New York or Georgia should they file charges, there are no Presidential pardons. The best he could hope for is a Governor's pardon. In Georgia, that is possible. In New York, not likely.

[abc3643]

* typo
Espionage Act of 1917 not 1971.

[msc545]

I hear you. It can get really bad.

[msc545]

@abc3643 Nauta was indicted along with Trump

[abc3643]

Yes I know. I read the indictment. Nauta is NOT indicted over the documents themselves; those first 31 counts of violating the Espionage Act are solely against Trump.

Most or all of the remaining charges include Nauta. The 38th charge is solely Nauta's.