Is the political left getting more and more authoritarian?

[genericname85]

Updates

+1 y

oops that new system is weird. i didn't wanna straight up send it without description...

what i was trying to say is: i always thought political left was about libertarianism. liberty as in being free. free to do what you like. it seems more and more about "not" being free an about conforming to the mass NOT doing what you want but rather being told what you want and being insulted if you disagree.

[NamerOfStars]

In the US, absolutely. In the west, more broadly? I don't keep up with that close enough to say definitively, but that would be in keeping with what I'm seeing. Worldwide? I can only shrug.

Look at the insanity over Covid- and who clung to it after it became insane, rather than just "excessively cautious", and who stuck with it even after it descended into "actively harmful". A friend of mine who died during it couldn't even have a funeral held for him because public gathering of more than six people was "too dangerous", despite free assembly being explicitly protected by the first Amendment. The then-mayor (who later went on to have the state Congress effectively declare him Emperor) who enacted this policy would go on to himself not only ignore but VIOLATE it by going out to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with thousands of other protestors to object to the police slaying of a man in another state who, per his own reckoning, died of Covid.

Illinois is SUCH a shithole.

I have some serious problems with the economic theories of Thomas Sowell, but when he said "If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical 60 years ago, a liberal 30 years ago, and a racist today", he was absolutely correct.

[genericname85]

same shit here. i live in Europe. germany specifically. but that's no surprise cause we're a banana republic lead by nato (usa) since after ww2.

[NamerOfStars]

You'd think a country that had seen the madness of authoritarian right-wing leadership followed in rapid succession by authoritarian left-wing leadership would know better.

[genericname85]

i mean technically hitler was a "socialist" xD socialism isn't "right wing" as far as i know. but yeah. the following planned economy regime was only a thing for a minority of the country. like only 5 of the 16 states suffred under the russian socialist model. the rest didn't.

[NamerOfStars]

Hitler called himself a socialist; the Byzantines called themselves "Roman". Neither is true; the man was right-wing as they come.

[genericname85]

yeah i know dude it was just a play on words.

[genericname85]

but it is true that only a minority of germans experienced the GDR.

[NamerOfStars]

True. Still too many. Authoritiarinsm sucks, no matter which side of the aisle. And if you're not going to learn from it, you might as well not bother.

[genericname85]

well the germans sure don't learn. they just obey no matter what insane idiot tells them what to do. they will straight up copy paste the propaganda to their brain and not hink for a second. hate being a part of that folk XD

[Levin]

Yes, intolerance is the name of the game to the left. Which as you note is distinct from libertarianism which I favour. My views are quite intolerable to my boss. He sees it necessary to challenge and patronise me a fair bit.

Unfortunately, I have to bite my tongue to some degree, given I'm kind of between two worlds. Two levels of consciousness. The old and the new.

The social contract has been severed irrevocably. He or anyone can't really expect me to have any further faith in the myriad institutions of authority, science and government. The 'system' is beginning to implode.

[genericname85]

we all have to bite our tongue in the public discourse cause saying certain things can cost you your job in pretty much every line of work these days.

[Levin]

Yes. There is a longer game to play.

We have to be smart about these things. Extricating ourselves from the 'system' has to be the goal. Operating from a place of total congruence and freedom. Or to the utmost of it being practically possible!

[genericname85]

the problem with freedom is that it always comes at the cost of safety. you can't be safe and free. and i guess a lot of the safety we are offered in the current system is made up and not real. that's why people prefer to sacrifice their liberty.

[Levin]

True. Although as you allude, there is a slight contradiction in that statement. And it seems as though, that striving for safety, has made people unsafe. Because they subjacate to a higher authority, rather than using their own faculties.

[genericname85]

well yeah because people get scared of imaginary future dangers that may or may not become a realtiy and in the pursuit of being safer from these dangers, they actually sacrifice their safety from things that are current and real.

[Anonymous]

Libertarianism is libertarianism. "The left" is more focused on protecting people, and life in general. Protecting everyone means everyone needs to give up some things, like being able to commit murder, build planes without any safety standards, dump ungodly amounts of trash in the ocean, or do sadistic experiments on animals or humans, for example. That's giving up some freedom to receive different freedom—freedom to live peacefully and without constant fear and violence.

I think, as long as the government in charge of all this is still run by all the people who have to live under the law, and not by a select tiny group of people who are above the law, then it's not authoritarianism. It's just democracy.

[genericname85]

well the thing about "protection" is that it always comes at the cost of liberty. it's always a compromise. i do think there's reasonable agreements for regulation of safety and freedom. but for me personally, we're getting to a point where i am not comfortable anymore with how much liberty i got to pay for the protection i'm offered. i'd rather be less protected and more free at this point.

[Opinion Owner]

That's where the "who controls it" comes in. Personally I would love one or 2 more protections, although the one or 2 liberties that would cost aren't something I personally do anyways. It could just be the case that a majority of the people want a few more protections than you do, and a few less than I do. So it's still not authoritarianism, we just are in the minority of the deciders.

[genericname85]

well the thing is that in the western democratic system you have no say in it xD you can vote a representant in hopes that they represent what you want. but there's nothing that makes the representant you voted for actually do what they promised you when you voted for them.

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah, It's weird. There's lots of things you can do, but not a lot of them make any big difference. I'd like if the system worked better too.

[normalice]

Sort of. It's clear that far right billionaires have fully exploited the citizens united ruling to take over left leaning media, for the sake of controlled opposition. So, most left leaning people just tune out politics altogether because the choice to lean right is made out to be the easiest choice by the media. Most of the left who do throw the selves into the web of controlled opposition end up convinced nothing but perfection is acceptable, which of course is the whole point of the controlled opposition - anything to discourage people from voting democrat.

[genericname85]

yeah it's strange right? it's almost like you can tell what social media people consume based on what social media plattform they consume.

[genericname85]

sorry meant to say: you can see what social media people consume based on what party they vote xD

[normalice]

Almost. But thats sadly true of everything other than democrats, since far right billionaires own most of social media and their main goal is to discourage democratic turnout.

[genericname85]

I don't consider Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg "far right". quite the opposite. the only far right owned social media is x. com formerly known as twitter, which before that recent change was also owned by he far left. so in my opinion, social media are mostly owned by the far left with one notable exception.

[genericname85]

also google and youtube. far left

[normalice]

Cool, but your opinion doesn't change the facts. Bill gates does seem to lean left, imsuppose, but doesn't really have a social media empire. Zuckerberg is largely apolitical and leaves the operation of Facebook to underlings who let the highest bidder run the platform - far right billionaires being that highest bidder for all of 2016 and 2020.

[normalice]

Google is not a social media platform. YouTube, again, just sells to the highest bidder. There are countless far right channels on youtube.

[genericname85]

i know google isn't a social media platform. it is a platform that people get information on. and that information is rarely skewed to the politically right. same with chat gpt. it's super left leaning.

[normalice]

When you filter scams out of search results the far right tends to get excluded. That isn't because the platforms are opposed to the far right, it's because they are opposed to scams.

[genericname85]

i mean bill gates has used left wing authoritarian politics to sell his vaccines globally very recently. facebook even if maybe not steered by zuckerberg himself i extremely left wing in their policy. tho i would agree that it's probably not due to zuckerberg but rather the platform being forced by left leaning legislature to abide by their laws and be left leaning as a result in order not to be banned.

[genericname85]

i don't see a valid reason to make the argument that the far right is more likely to scam and thereforè gets filtered out. do you have a reason for that assertion?

[normalice]

But that's all misinformation far right billionaires brainwashed a lot of people with, but has nothing to do with real life. Exactly the sort of scam that would get filtered out of a search result.

[genericname85]

can you tell me what exact misinformation and brain washing you're talking about?

[normalice]

You just rattled off a bunch of far right scams. You probably don't even know that they are scams. That's how effective unfiltered misinformation can be.

[normalice]

I'm not your dad so I'm not going to hold your hand through the whole thing but every sentence was bullshit. Pick any one, and it's far right bullshit.

[genericname85]

dude i really have trouble following your argument. not trying to be petty or something. can you please pick out one example of far right scam or missinformation you're referring to so i get a feel for what we're talking about?

[normalice]

"i mean bill gates has used left wing authoritarian politics to sell his vaccines globally very recently."
This is false. Misinformation. A scam. Bullshit. Brainwashing. Etc..

[genericname85]

ah ok. weird. i'm referring to this as politically "left". you seem to call the exact same thing politically "right". well i guess that's a good showcase for why this aged terminology is useless these days xD

[genericname85]

but anyway that's not missinformation. he has factually sold his vaccine globally getting very rich in the process alongside some other companies. and he used far left authoritarian policies and i can even tell you how it is far left and where it was far left:

did you know the european union had contracts made between the EU and big Pharmaceutical companies that "in case" a big pandemic "would come around", that obliged EU nations to buy "medication" necessary to fight such pandemics and they also basically signed a black check to these companies for that case cause obviously the pharma giants couldn't say what exactly an appropriate medicine costs? if i remember correctly, these contracts have been made in 2018 or 2019. so very convenient for the 2020 outbreak... and that's a fact. not missinformation.

[normalice]

I didn't read passed the first two sentences but i believe i mentioned controlled opposition repeatedly.

[genericname85]

if you had followed even the WHO statements that were released almost on a daily rate at the corona time, you would have noticed how it completely contradicted intself over several statements and several times. and each time they would just delete the older contradictory statements and then media called everyone who complained about this "conspiracy theorists". like if i hadn't followed it that closely myself, i would probably have the same opinion you have now. but what has been seen can't be unseen. and i wish i could unsee that cause then my world view would be more positive xD

[normalice]

You mean if I had followed some far right grifters' running narrative of the WHO statements. No thanks 😅

[genericname85]

if you consider the WHO itself far right, then i guess that's what i mean.

[normalice]

I'm positive you didn't hear "bill gates is using authoritarian practices to force people to buy his vaccines globally" from the WHO, lol.

[genericname85]

oh yeah i'm sure the very website of the bill and melinda gates foundation is also hijacked and edited by far right propaganda i guess https://sif.gatesfoundation.org/portfolio just scroll a bit through there. there's multiple companies that are in very close connection to the covid vaccines and the covid tests. some of them you don't even have to google, cause it says right in the name.

[normalice]

That sounds like the sort of thing you should scrawl onto a piece of cardboard and shout at people from a busy street corner.

[genericname85]

dude it's the litteral primary source saying that what i said is correct. it doesn't get any more factual than that. can't make a blind man see.

[normalice]

You say it's a primary source but I don't believe you. You have not filled me with the confidence that you would check that you aren't being mislead by some parody site. And even that assumes it's saying what you claim it says.

[genericname85]

like this part isn't even a hidden conspiracy or something. it's publicly stated affiliations and investments that everyone can see who chooses to look. but i guess you rather don't look and assume the person telling you is crazy cause that's easier than accepting what's obviously happening. met many people like that and i can't even fault them. cause that's a damn tough pill to swallow.

[normalice]

Yes, far right billionaires are trying very hard to make their scam mainstream. Looks like it's working just fine.

[genericname85]

dude it is the website of the bill and melinda gates foundation. you said what i told is missinformation spread by far right propaganda. your argumentation is delusional. like every evidence that doesn't support your view you automatically assume must be fake. don't know how to tell you but that's borderline chizophrenia. but either way. i gain nothing from you being able to see what is very obviously in plain sight. no hard feelings towards you but this discussion seems futile at this point.

[genericname85]

www.google.com/search

[normalice]

Again, I'm not clicking on anything you believe to be information. Feel free to copy + paste the exact quote that concerns you, though.

[genericname85]

ok i can understand not wanting to click a link for your own security. i'll try to copy one statement from the official website that you can also find by googling the "official website of the bill and melinda gates foundation:

Vaccine Formulation Institute (CH) Ltd
Division
Global Health
Date
November 2019
Region served
GLOBAL
Committed amount
$9,969,868
Grant topic
Discovery and Translational Sciences
Duration (months)
46
Grantee location
Plan-les-Ouates, Geneva, Switzerland

so it's not far right propaganda at all to claim that bill gates made money with vaccines. that is very clearly and undeniably the case.

[genericname85]

the table doesn't translate well but all the information is there. they have a huge list of investments and obviously some of them aren't health or vaccine related but some of them are so the statement is correct.

[normalice]

I don't see the word "authoritarian" anywhere. Are you even trying?

[genericname85]

obviously it will not state that it was "authoritarian" on the website. that's not something they can advertise with. but the fact was that the EU legislated the national acquisition of vaccines through European legislature does make that act authoritarian in nature.

like if you're investing in a product that are being sold to nations by law, not by economical choice of the nations, that's authoritarian no?

[normalice]

So, some far right scammer's running narrative, as I said from the start.

[genericname85]

i would link you the specific EU law but copying that entire law would be too much for the text box you get here.

[genericname85]

ok so you disagree that international nations coercing nations to buy a product that you're selling is authoritarian? or do you jost not believe that was the case?

[genericname85]

*international laws coercing nations...

[normalice]

Basically, whatever you heard from the far right, assume I believe it was garbage.

[genericname85]

dude it's not "shit i heard" it's facts that are public information. like if you wanna claim it's "far right garbage information", i'd like to see some proof for that claim. and if you just wanna believe it, it's delusion.

and even besides that specific topic: one should not care what political relgious or racial backround a person has who said something. a fact is either true or it's not. the backround doesn't change anything about that.

anyway, you strike me as one of those people who just uses the word "politically right" for basically anything you dislike or disagree with. no matter what it is. that makes a discussion pointless. but you definitely did a good job trolling me and making me feel like you're actually a rational person accessible to reason and logic like 2 times there XD good job.

[normalice]

Where did you hear that it was authoritarian. Who did you first hear calling it that. I know you didn't make it up because I've heard pretty much all of QAnon saying the same thing 3 years ago.

[Astarlessnightsky]

You may want to add what "left" you are talking about.

There definetely is a "left", who is all about the "free", usually the free market.

But left in general is simply those who were sitting to the left of the king and were opposed to the monarchy.

[genericname85]

the left in my country personally manifests as people following certain ideologies and in the pusuit of these ideologies they're trying to force everyone to follow these ideologies, cause these ideologies are for a percieved "greater good" and being against that is considered a crime. because fuck your liberty, if you can have a fantasy of the future that may not even become a reality. that's what the left has become to me. that's my exposure to the left. i have no issues with a "free market" but to me it seems like that's more a thing that the political right are more concerned about.

[Levin]

'Greater good' is an important concept. Perpetual nannying.

[genericname85]

@Levin well it is an important concept. but it's a question of how realistic these "greater goods" are to achieve and how necessary they areally are for the individual.

[DarkLegacy]

Yes thy are trying to impose a dictatorship through stealth, by brainwashing, lying and frightening people into agreeing with it. Removing cultural identity and people's culture is part of it. Sadly the younger people and in particular women are falling for it.

[genericname85]

yeah it's really scary that they're trying to make "offense" a violent criminal act, when really this is the only way to truth.

[exitseven]

geez, ya think?

Lock them all up for 30 years. They trespassed.

[JHNS98]

Both sides are authoritarian in their furthest extents. On the right are the fascists, on the left are the socialists and communists

[genericname85]

fascists are technically on both sides cause at that point both are totalitarion, both fight for collectivism and anti individualism, they are both fundamentally idealistic, both reject democracy, cause democracy means the other side "could" be voted for, both extreme ends foster extreme natinal pride and militarism, both support economic cooperatism.

the only thing that differs "by definition" is that the right tends to be racist tho i would say the extreme left especially these days is also extremely racist so even that isn't a separating factor anymore.

[Jennz6]

They are socialist

[genericname85]

i mean personally i think you can not have a completely free market. so you have to have "some" ammount of socialism to keep the rampant accummulation of wealth in very few hands in check. cause we've known for many millenia that pure capitalism can not be long term stable. but neither can pure socialism. so we're fucked up either way. the qeustion is how "fast" do we wanna get fucked up and if society swings too far to either side, we're speeding it up.

[gorydetails]

They always have been.

[genericname85]

try telling one of these lefties that all the terrible things in the past (hitler, stalin and mao and even the American period of slave ownership like the confederate states) were all politically left. they will just try to gaslight you into believing that "this left wing" is actually right wing and that they are the "actual" left wing, not those while being exactly like those and not any different.

[gorydetails]

Well of course. If it weren't for universal deception, the left wouldn't be able to survive.