The two options for the war against Russia in Ukraine are an unconditional Kiev surrender, or a U. S. war with Russia. What will the U. S. choose?

[Kelley1]

It is the policy of the U. S. to attack civilians. The North did against the South. The U. S. murdered the Indians. We bombed civilians in Japan and Germany, we murdered civilians in Vietnam and we provide the bombs for Israel to kill Palestinians. Putin does not do that. By avoiding killing civilians, the war is taking longer but the outcome is certain.

[Drewtate]

Minimising "collateral damage" as it was first coined in the Gulf War was never really about minimising civilian casualties but more about selling going to war in the first place because we had "moral superiority". Really what it's about is more accurately attacking an enemy, so your firepower is that more lethal, it's basically if you fire a hundred bullets you hit 90 targets vs firing a hundred bullets and hitting 5.

In vietnam a lot of that laser guided bombs and rockets, thermal optics, infrared, night vision, motion sensors drones, stealth technology etc started to be developed because the USAF were dropping bombs 24/7 and hitting nothing or civilians and the vietcong and nva were able to continue operating with minimal loses.

Most of the native Americans were wiped out by the old world diseases the Europeans brought. Various pandemics wiped out huge portions of Europe, Asia, the middle east, India and middle east usually brought east to West and west to east via the silk road. A lot of this was because of animal husbandry which the indians didn't really do like elsewhere in the world. So imagine a European sneezes on a native American and that native American gets smallpox, chickenpox, measles, scarlet fever, yellow fever, tuberculosis, influenza, leprosy, typhoid, whooping cough, the common cold and so. Then the us in the expansion west had most of the Buffalo killed to starbe the native Americans.

Bombing Japanese and German cities was necessary to end the war. WW1 & WW2 were wars of production, stopping Japan and Germany from producing weapons and ammunition speeded the end of the war up and saved millions of allied lives.

Ukraine is firing more accurately than the Russians. The problem is that both Russian and Ukraine are in a stalemate. Neither can overcome the others defences because the current state of weapons technology favours the defender.

[razelove]

Actually we could supply it rather well if so much of our munitions process wasn't controlled by so few defense industries. Ammo is the biggest problem, and we artificially restrict the ammo market to make it worth more. I don't know about the smart bombs and all that, but TNT, and nitrocellulose from WWII are still shelf stable and as effective as they were then.

Anyway, I do support Russia winning so then we don't have an excuse to keep subsidizing Ukraine. You know we're still paying the Taliban billions a year? Why would we stop paying Ukraine because the war's over if they win, or sign a peace treaty?

[bluesparrow]

I want the first nuke to take me out.

[buzzword]

Was working at Twitter that bad?

[bluesparrow]

Thanks for the MHO

[ohsheeT]

No matter which way you look at it it's no good I quit watching the news because I hate bullies. And sometimes the US acts like a big fucking bully and one of these days somebody's going to walk up to them and bitch slap them and say now what motherfucker.

That's why I don't want Trump to be our president because it would happen to him and he couldn't find his way out of the wet paper bag so he would have our army marines Navy Coast guard. Do it and if you look back at every war we've been into it's because we wanted something that somebody else had...

[HopeTrust19]

What war did Trump start?

[ohsheeT]

Well I don't think he says started any at the moment. But if you look at reality on this planet there's a lot going on no matter what it is it's almost a holy war good versus evil..

If any of the Trump people could honestly be 100% honest with everything that Trump has done to other people to get to where he is at right now it's disgusting he. Lies he. cheats

And do you think... If Trump was to become president that he would try to pass a bill to where he would always be president. Everybody that thinks Trump is God's gift... Should really take a different look...

He is God's gift to show us all where we are all headed that there is a holy war going on... Trump is put in that position by God to show us how we are being manipulated to other people in this war every time we go through something during the day at work or at night and there's people bad mouthing us there's people with drama trying to start conflicts the same with Trump constantly.. . People do what they want to do I don't care they can do whatever they want I look at things a little bit different I look at things deeper and I look at everything that he has done which is he didn't become rich George a guy that work for him helped him become rich and then brought him back after Trump lasted all but even all that Trump still took a lied and cheated and so many different ways to get to where he's at... For me I don't believe in that I don't believe it's right that he has gotten away with everything that he's done to people

The first time he was elected I told. Somebody this is not about Trump's election this is about Trump's fall... Because of everything he's done in his past... I mean if we the people elect him to be the president we will all see I guess. Won't we.

[Walksbehindtherows]

If Ukraine surrenders, the war will end and people will not die

[HopeTrust19]

If Russia surrendered, the war would end, and people would not die.

[Walksbehindtherows]

@HopeTrust19 Very clever

[Kelley1]

@HopeTrust19 That is false. For 8 years from 2014 Ukraine was passing laws against and often murdering people in the Russian-speaking areas.

[HopeTrust19]

@Kelley1
Oh, you mean how Russian forces were committing crimes against Civilian populations?
For example,
Russia’s defence minister boasted that they tested “more than 320 types of different weapons” in their military operations in Syria that killed 87,500, according to Russian sources. Even hospitals were not spared. The Russian war in Syria targeted doctors, hospitals, and clinics, depriving communities of healthcare. The World Health Organization (WHO) has reported 859 attacks on healthcare centres since the beginning of the Ukrainian war, resulting in 101 deaths and 136 injuries.

Between April 29 and mid-September 2019, as Russian and Syrian government forces assaulted the last rebel pocket in Northwest Syria, 54 hospitals and clinics in opposition territory were attacked. According to Syrian human rights groups, Russia committed more than 335 massacres and at least 1,083 attacks on vital civilian facilities, including 201 attacks on schools and 190 attacks on medical facilities. These killed at least 20,944 Syrian civilians from air raids using illegal weapons like cluster incendiary and “thermobaric” vacuum bombs.

Or how in Ukraine it was reported that
On 22 April 2022, the UN reported that of the 2,343 civilian casualties it had been able to document, it could confirm 92.3% of these deaths were as a result of the actions of the Russian armed forces

[MrGSpotHer]

They might not have to some other country's that Russia have invaded in past want to be rid of that in Europe some have said even if UK and US don't support they still will

[HopeTrust19]

Serious question,

Did you have any drugs, alcohol, or perhaps exorbitant amounts of caffeine today?

[bluesparrow]

You seem much more intelligent with what you offer to the conversation.

[Kelley1]

Do you get all your news from mainstream media?

[HopeTrust19]

Do you get all of your news from the Russian media?
Do you get all of your historical understanding from your liberal arts degree?

[bluesparrow]

@hopetrust19
I think you're over your head on this one.

[HopeTrust19]

Let us correct your ignorance.
1. There is no "US Policy" to kill civilians in conflicts in the modern time.
On top of this, most civilian casualties of those wars were caused by insurgent forces as admitted by the UN reports, and reached their peaks when USA military forces were no longer involved.
For example, 2013 Annual Report on Protection of Civilians in Armed Conflict, prepared by the UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA), documented a total of 8,615 civilian casualties with 2,959 civilian deaths and 5,656 injured in 2013. The new report attributed 74 per cent of total civilian deaths and injuries in 2013 to AGEs, 11 per cent to PGFs (with eight per cent to the Afghan National Security Forces and three per cent to international forces) and ten per cent to ground engagements between AGEs and PGFs. Five per cent of civilian casualties were unattributed, resulting mostly from explosive remnants of war.
This was routine, and more often than not Anti-Government forces were responsible for the majority of civilian deaths.
This was the same during the era when the USA military was no longer involved in Afghanistan after its withdrawal in 2014.

For example, Anti-Government Elements (AGEs) were responsible for 64 per cent of the total civilian casualties: 39 per cent by Taliban, nearly nine per cent by Islamic State-Khorasan Province (ISIL-KP), and 16 per cent by undetermined AGEs.

Pro-Government Forces (PGFs) were responsible for 25 per cent of civilian casualties: 23 per cent by Afghan national security forces, and two per cent by pro-Government armed groups or undetermined PGFs.

As stated by a 2021 report by UNAMA.

Let us compare that to the Russian invasion of Ukraine?
On 22 April 2022, the UN reported that of the 2,343 civilian casualties it had been able to document, it could confirm 92.3% of these deaths were as a result of the actions of the Russian armed forces

[HopeTrust19]

@bluesparrow @Kelley1
Furthermore if we take a historical understanding of conflicts between these nations.
The concept that "Civilian death" is at all so significantly different between both powers is quiet ridiculous?
Shall we ignore the Chechen Conflicts? The Soviet crackdowns of Anti-Communist struggles within their territory? The Soviet military offensives of World War 2 that led to the death and rape of millions? Is it truly that different from USA operations of those eras? Get real.

On top of this, the current conflict in Ukraine has seen the Russian military suffer 100s of thousands of casualties, along with significant material losses. The government of Russia has had to resort to forced conscription, and mercenary forces, along with financial aid outside.
Yet most of the campaigns of failed miserably (such as its attempted conquest of Kiev).
Let us also not forget that Ukrainian forces have launched an invasion into the Kursk Oblast last month.
If anything, this conflict has turned into a stalemate between two military powers, of which one should be on paper far more powerful than the other. In reality, Russia has shown itself to be a paper tiger.

[bluesparrow]

What rules? Are you still clinging to "rules?"

[HopeTrust19]

@bluesparrow Where did I say the word "rule"

[HopeTrust19]

@Kelley1@bluesparrow

Furthermore, shall we truly go down the route of "history of killing innocents"
Do you seriously want to take this direction? For Russia has a far longer history (naturally, being a far older power) where some of the most heinous crimes in human history have happened.
Let us not forget the circassian genocide of the 1860s? the holodomor genocide? the stalin purges? the white terror? the red terror? The list is literally endless... with death tolls far surpassing anything to the United States.
Let us not forget that Soviet casualties of World War 2, were greater, than all of the deaths of all American military conflicts in American History.
You are fighting a losing fight here.

Please get educated.
Instead of creating fake profiles, and becoming a mouth piece of nonsense.

[bluesparrow]

"there is no "US Policy"

[HopeTrust19]

@bluesparrow How about you try reading the entire conversation, and what I am referencing.
As stated by Kelly "It is the policy of the U. S. to attack civilians."
Nice try. Take time to educate yourself.
So once again, where did I say the word "Rule"

I think you are out of your depth.

[Kelley1]

@bluesparrow I go by the facts. not some feel good fake policy, and I gave the facts. The U. S. has always made war on civilians. Don't change the subject. I said Putin; not Russia. I know in the past Russia does not have a good record but Putin is different.

[HopeTrust19]

@Kelley1
These are not "feelings" but actual facts.
You make the claim "made war on civilians"
What is your definition of that? Because civilians die? Should I then say Putin "made war on civilians" in Ukraine, because 10s of thousands have died, while he has fought a largely professional army? As opposed, to the USA, that has largely fought against insurgent forces in the past 20 years, that have often used civilians as a way to make conflict?
Should we ignore Russian military allies, or those who buy Russian equipment who use those resources against civilian populations? India? China? Syria? Libya? Iran? etc etc.
You are fighting a losing argument here.
We are speaking about two of the most prolific nations of the past 80 years, that have both had their tendrils and influence around the world (for better or worse). Both of which, have done terrible things, or supported undesirable powers for their own personal gains.
Be realistic, instead of a puppet.

[HopeTrust19]

@Kelley1 to be even more specific.
Putin launched the Second Chechen War, which led to the deaths of perhaps 80,000 people (or more). He launched various other military campaigns throughout the years that have led to the deaths of 1000s of people (such as Ukraine, or Georgia).
He imprisoned and executed dissenters in his own nation.
He armed regimes that committed heinous crimes (such as Syria) as according to the UN.
He quashed opposition forces in his own nation, exiled enemies, limited various freedoms.
The list is endless...

[HopeTrust19]

@Kelley1 @bluesparrow
as according to AlJazzera
Russia’s defence minister boasted that they tested “more than 320 types of different weapons” in their military operations in Syria that killed 87,500, according to Russian sources. Even hospitals were not spared. The Russian war in Syria targeted doctors, hospitals, and clinics, depriving communities of healthcare. The World Health Organization (WHO) has reported 859 attacks on healthcare centres since the beginning of the Ukrainian war, resulting in 101 deaths and 136 injuries.

Between April 29 and mid-September 2019, as Russian and Syrian government forces assaulted the last rebel pocket in Northwest Syria, 54 hospitals and clinics in opposition territory were attacked. According to Syrian human rights groups, Russia committed more than 335 massacres and at least 1,083 attacks on vital civilian facilities, including 201 attacks on schools and 190 attacks on medical facilities. These killed at least 20,944 Syrian civilians from air raids using illegal weapons like cluster incendiary and “thermobaric” vacuum bombs.

[Kelley1]

Have you not read about General Sherman burning much of the South and later attempting to murder every Indian? Have you not heard about the firebombing of Tokyo and the 2 atomic bombs? Do you not know how we bombed civilian areas in Germany?

Do you not know that Madeleine Albright, the first female secretary of state in United States history during a 60 Minutes interview with Lesley Stahl discussed with the then-United Nations ambassador how Iraq had been suffering from the sanctions placed on the country following 1991's Gulf War.
"We have heard that half a million [Iraqi] children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima," Stahl said. "And, you know, is the price worth it?"
"I think that is a very hard choice," Albright answered, "but the price, we think, the price is worth it."

Do you not know how many people the US killed in Vietnam based on a lie? Do you not know how many Palestinians have died from the bombs we gave to Israel?

Don't attempt again to tell me the US doesn't have a policy to attack civilians.

[HopeTrust19]

Thank you for proving my point, and completely ignoring my reply.

[HopeTrust19]

@Kelley1 The issue here isn't the topic at hand, but your clear political preferences.
You ignore the clear war crimes I have listed, in attempt to pain the USA in a similar picture.
Yet, my original argument is that historically throughout these eras, these nations were not that different in what they found acceptable?
You seem to ignore most of what I have said, to go on a "Russia is a good guy, and USA is a bad guy" while ignoring the crimes committed by one side, and highlighting those committed by another?

You fell into my logic trap.
You think somehow listing these things at all detracts from the previous point that you made of Putin not targeting civilians, or being responsible for those deaths.
Which I asked for you to expand upon, by what you define as "responsibility"
Instead, you go down a historical road (as I know you would, and warned you not to do, for Russian crimes are far wore more common), yet you decided to do it anyway?

Do you spend most of your time here just being a mouthpiece for Putin, because its the only way any of this makes sense.

[HopeTrust19]

@Kelley1
First and foremost lets look at your initial claim
"It is the policy of the U. S. to attack civilians. The North did against the South. The U. S. murdered the Indians. We bombed civilians in Japan and Germany, we murdered civilians in Vietnam and we provide the bombs for Israel to kill Palestinians. Putin does not do that. By avoiding killing civilians, the war is taking longer but the outcome is certain."'

It highlights crimes of the United States government throughout history, in comparison to Putin (who has only been in power since 1999).
I have debunked both of these statements by showing that the Russian government was responsible for far more brutal crimes during these eras, at higher rates, more civilian deaths, and internal conflicts. This can't be denied, and was accepted by you.

I further stated that there is NO US policy on attacking civilians in the modern era. You haven't actually shown any military operations that have specifically targeted civilian populations.
Instead, you have included historical claims (predating Putin), which we both agree Russia and USA have a history of doing terrible things. Then you include political/financial sanctions, which the Putin regime has done as well, including arming nations that have committed crimes? (Syria for example). So once again, what is the difference?

That debunks the initial claim that Putin is any different, if anything must worse.
Which I highlight in my previous reply on his campaigns in Chechenya, which targeted civilian population, the Syrian conflict, and Ukraine, where the ICIC have actually put out arrest warrants for Putin for war crimes (yes, funny, because the organization is inept).
Not to mention his internal crimes against any attempts at his power.

This is a losing fight.
Why create a fake Pro-Russian propaganda account, and pretend to be some Uni student?

[Kelley1]

You debunk nothing; let alone recent events. It was only a few days ago that Congress fell all over themselves to applaud after almost every sentence that international Israel criminal and murderer of Palestinian civilians, especially women and children.

[HopeTrust19]

@Kelley1 Nice way of avoiding the topic.
See how you completely ignore what was stated before, by moving the topic in another direction, without actually dealing with the initial topic at hand "Putin doesn't do that"

[incelebrity]

US will choose whatever pisrahell tells them to choose. Its not even a choice.