If we didn't have agents ruling us (such as parliment, states, dictators etc) wouldn't the resulting chaos be detrimental to all of our lives?

[Crimsyjo]

In order to keep law and order and have justice and rules keeping the majority in line we have to accept the good and bad of being overruled? Like taxation and redistribution of wealth? And loss of control over freedoms.

But what is the alternative? Disorder and everyone out for themselves? Dog eat dog world? Loss of safety? Loss of collaboration to make and provide resources?

[Lynx122]

Yes and if the system is run well it is a benefit to everyone, but many systems of government are just not very effective at doing what they're supposed to do and it leads to corruption etc. And once those powerful people are in position to influence the system it becomes a lot harder to change it to actually represent the little people. So you have to get it right from the start or keep improving it without ever faltering and most places in the world just didn't do that. But even a corrupt system is usually still better than anarchy, but it's just not nice to live in a place where people are actively stealing money that should go to the public good and seeing everything go down the drain.

[Crimsyjo]

Yes I agree! Sometimes it's easy to think freedom is a great thing. But total freedom is probably not. Unfortunately corruption is the reason we are stuck something that could be great but isn't yet there isn't much alternative.

[Lynx122]

Maybe at some point there will come a time where people would rather have chaos than keep going with the current system. We'll have to see.

[DrPepper12]

Civilization (govt AND SOCIETY) necessitates voluntary diminishment of rights. THATS A FACT.

To argue otherwise means you are speaking to a ignorant fool. Man is a social creature and voluntarily creates hierarchies IN EVERY human endeavor. THATS A FACT.

To have unfettered individualism is an illusion and a suicide pact for all.

[Crimsyjo]

I agree!

[Juxtapose]

The federal government should be reduced to a night watchman state as described by John Locke.

[Crimsyjo]

@Juxtapose ooh I hadn't heard of that bit after a search ghat sounds like a good compromise

[Juxtapose]

Yeah, I firmly believe anyone that tells me that we need firm government control in our life is lying to us. We absolutely do not need that.

[DrPepper12]

Disagree. A larger communitarian umbrella can accomplish more/better than individuals in areas beyond minimalist defense, customs, banking, etc

[Juxtapose]

A lot more rights taken away maybe.

[DrPepper12]

Maybe is doing some VERY Heavy lifting but you're right. Power must reside with the people in units as local as practicable

[Amur8711]

But what your talking about is removing freedom. 🤔

[Crimsyjo]

Is complete freedom a good thing? I'm all for freedom but upon deeper thinking I'm not sure. If people have TRUE freedom does that not mean freedom to rape and kill and steal? So by accepting limits of our freedoms is that the price we have to pay? For a safer society?
I hate to admit it but I can't see what an alternative is?

[Amur8711]

Of course, acts that infringed upon another's freedoms and rights are illegal. That's what the US was founded upon.

Unfortunately slavery was left in because Thomas Jefferson was afraid the others wouldn't sign it if they couldn't keep their slaves.

[Crimsyjo]

Ah yes but the very fact that someone- be it one person or an institute- decides and agrees on what is illegal (and has authority to punish for it) is in itself a control over us.

And the slavery clause just proves its a two way street. An agent only has power if people allow and accept them as having power over them. But there is also majority rules. So for those that disagree with the agent, it only takes a majority to agree and you are under the same control whether you like it or not.

[Amur8711]

That is why we don't use majority rule. The majority rule is democracy. We are a representative republic that balances power and gives a voice to the minority.

Besides, our constitution was written to tell the government the limits of their power, not what rights the government grants.

[RedInnocent69]

Yes, chaos is detrimental to our lives

[CubaPirate]

We're all ruled by the Cobarl

[NathanDavis]

cannibalism

[Agape93]

Nope