Why shouldn't we put boots on the ground in Ukraine?

[OddBeMe]

Pretty sure it'd be a weekend war with the collapse of Russian forces. And we deal with Putin's successor. Hello new EU member.

[Anonymous]

You say that like it's a joke but Trump could conceivable do that.

It would litteraly be the only way for Russian forces to be pushed out of Ukraine because anyone who tells you that we deliver Ukraine enough weapons, ammunition and vehicles is completely deluded as Ukraine has lost this war. Russia has dug in and no amount of tanks or bodies thrown at Russian postions will change that. Eventually the Ukrainians will have to accept to defeat the only difference is will they accept it now or in a year with the loss of hundreds of thousands more.

Also there is a no fly zone over Ukrainian held territory. In other words Russian aircraft no longer venture over Ukraine because non stealth aircraft can not operate over enemy territory due to ground based air missile defence systems. Even Russian AWACs aircraft have been shot down inside Russian territory.

[Twalli]

Except Trump would not wqnt to get kn Putin's back side, do he'd send soldiers there to fight alongside Russians against Ukraine.

[OddBeMe]

@Twalli true.

Any democratic loving politician would be discussing herr putin's downfall.

[Opinion Owner]

How to do you propose to oust Putin? Marching hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians to their death in a war they've already lost.

[OddBeMe]

Nope. Not one boot in Russia. Just make putin fallable. Like Hitler. Russians will take care of it

[Opinion Owner]

How's that working out?

[OddBeMe]

Has Russia conquered Ukraine?

[Opinion Owner]

No but they've met their objectives.
1. Stop Ukraine from joining NATO
2. Capture Crimea
3. Control Donbass region
4. No US military bases in Ukraine

[OddBeMe]

I don’t think Putin has objectives other than anti-EU and anti-NATO. What’s the end goal of Putin? If his objectives are met then why’s he losing so many troops he has to call in North Korea?

[Opinion Owner]

Why did America call on anyone willing to deploy troops in Iraq & Afghanistan along with hundreds of thousands of mercenaries despite the us military being 2 million strong?
The end goal is the us not being able to blockade Russia economically and militarily surrounding them completely with bases. The us has 900 foreign military bases.

[OddBeMe]

I don't think that's necessary. Sanctions are obviously working. Putin can't conquer a former soviet satellite so he calls on his presidential asset to remove them.

[Opinion Owner]

Like I said it's mission accomplished for Putin. Nothing the west can do about it no matter how many sanctions they impose, how much weapons they give Ukraine or how many Ukrainians they sent into the meat grinder.

[OddBeMe]

How is it mission accomplished? Europe is more untied than ever and as are the Ukrainians. You should read Sun Tzu’s ideas of death ground. Because Putin has turned his conquered lands into death grounds.

Even if he stays (like the US tried in mid east) he will be constantly fighting Ukrainian partisans. there's no conquering Ukraine. That’s not an option. He could occupy 100% of it and be in a black hole of partisan warfare.

[purplepoppy]

Because Ukraine has enough trouble fighting Russia without Trump sending Putin troops to help him

[OddBeMe]

Or why hasn't a supposed "superpower" conquered a former satellite country

[purplepoppy]

True. We're often told in the UK we'd be overwhelmed by sheer numbers in only a few days, we can't win just die with some dignity. Yet a superpower can't conquer a neighbour? Makes you think if someone else was telling them to hold back so he could make a deal doesn't it?

[OddBeMe]

I would expect a Russian collapse in days of the EU sent a mere peacekeeping mission to protect ukriane civilians. It is vital for putin to fail in this and not come out with a whimper of success. He must fold or be called.

[Sevenpointfive]

russia is our friend moreso than the ukraine. i think all that we want is a fair war which they had. now it's time for peace but ukraine refuses to admit defeat. if russia wanted to crush the ukraine it would. it's done. and out of nowhere the ukraine just now does its biggest attack since the start of war? that doesn't make sense unless it is specifically so zelensky can stay in power. no elections

[OddBeMe]

Bullshit. Ukraine doesn't hack our voting machines.

[Sevenpointfive]

i know. ukraine doesn't do shit

[Twalli]

Putin us Trump's friend, insofar as Putin knows how to play Trump. Russia isn't our ally though.

[Sevenpointfive]

@Twalli russia is as much of an ally as israel

[Twalli]

Since when?

[Sevenpointfive]

@Twalli since the cold war ended

[Twalli]

Not really. They haven't been our enemy since then, but the world isn't divided between enemies and allies.

[Sevenpointfive]

@Twalli it depends on who you ask

[Twalli]

Really? I can easily name 10 cuntries that are neither allies nor enemies.

[msc545]

The US has no friends now.

[Sevenpointfive]

@msc545 and i'm thinking this is an Armageddon scenario

[msc545]

I think so too...

[Sevenpointfive]

@msc545 "astronauts stuck in space" my ass. they are monitoring our demise!

[msc545]

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to just to send somebody up there to watch everything. Go to hell

[Sevenpointfive]

@msc545 no trouble at all. they're probably a couple that agreed to do this.

[msc545]

Yeah but how are they going to get back? I think that's the real problem. Hi hi well at least up there. They probably get some clean water and lots of time to have sex.

[DryGermanGuy]

It’s not even needed. Deliver Ukraine enough weapons, ammunition and vehicles plus the approval of them using these in any way they see fit. It took the Afghans ten years to throw the Russians out, the Ukrainians should be able to achieve that in half the time.

[OddBeMe]

True. But we could even do a no fly zone over all of Ukraine and drone bomb half the Russian army

[msc545]

The Russians have nukes. Getting into an armed conflict with them s a VERY bad idea.

[Pohjolan]

@msc545
It's not like their imperial conquest coming to an end and going home would be a existential threat.

[msc545]

@Pohjolan The existential threat would be if they kept on fighting and we were in the middle of that. I don't care enough about Ukraine to risk nuclear war over it.

[Pohjolan]

@msc545
Fine I explain it Barney style:
If they lose a conventional war they go back to where they were in 2013 plus sanctions and a weaker army and a economy shambles.
If they go nuclear Russia might cease to exist as a country.
In one scenario Putler can continue enjoying his champagne and caviar while keeping his harem and palaces, in the other a tactical nuke with his name written on it will come for him.
Anyway this is all hypothetical as Trump won't do shit.

[msc545]

@Pohjolan Or "If they go nuclear the US might cease to exist as a country"

[Pohjolan]

@msc545
Maybe but at this point we know that their nuclear forces are less than 100% operational.

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 I doubt nukes would be used. But it’s certainly shouldn’t be a reason NOT to defend a democracy.

[msc545]

Yes, and I suppose you think that if their forces aren't 100% nuclear but that somehow makes it better. I think it makes it more likely for them to use nuke 's sooner while they still have them and they work. You doubting it is not sufficient to risk my life or the life of my family. I'm sorry but intervening on behalf of Ukraine is just not that important to me that we should take such a risk. We get nothing out of it.

[Pohjolan]

@msc545
"Yes, and I suppose you think that if their forces aren't 100% nuclear but that somehow makes it better."
It does.
"I'm sorry but intervening on behalf of Ukraine is just not that important to me that we should take such a risk. We get nothing out of it."
You could deal with Russia now and with China later. Also as Germanguy pointed out boots on the ground isn't even necessary.

[msc545]

Oh I see. So if they use just one or two nuclear weapons that's okay as long as it isn't 100% correct?

I don't think you understand that they are going to use nuclear weapons, not just on military installations, but also on our cities. How many dead people is Ukraine worth to you?

[DryGermanGuy]

@msc545
Nobody will use nukes in a fight over Ukraine. And absolutely not against the United States.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction

[Pohjolan]

@msc545
What makes you think that the guy with a megatable is less scared of nukes than Covid?

[msc545]

@DryGermanGuy You know this how? Are you Willing to bet your life and country on this?

[DryGermanGuy]

To quote Glenn Kirschner, I'm not a betting man, but there are some things as common sense, which even worked through the Cuban missile crisis. And that was directly concerning US-interests! Ukraine is not. So if past serves as prologue...

[msc545]

There is absolutely no compelling reason to run this risk. There are many reasons not to.

[DryGermanGuy]

The question is, is there even a realistic risk? Remember, Putin has threatened us with nuclear weapons the moment the first Western weapons were delivered in 2022. And has since given out approximately 47 arbitrary "red lines" not to be broken by the West, or else. I was taken aback by the first threat, because I thought this is not something to be uttered lightly, but ever since I don't care.

[msc545]

I don't care either. What is so important about Ukraine that you are willing to risk your country over it and even more importantly willing to risk my country as well? This whole war as usual was fought over money and money is not that important to me. Not really.

[Pohjolan]

@msc545
Money?
Don't be absurd. Russia won't recover the funds lost both to expenses and lost sales and other business by whatever financial gains they get from any occupied territories for another 1000 years.
Might be longer depending on the severity of the guerilla war that follows.

[msc545]

@Pohjolan If Russia succeeds in taking over Ukraine the mineral wealth alone will cover the cost of the war, not to mention preventing the US from building bases in Ukraine on the Russian border.

[Pohjolan]

@msc545
Russia has already have way more minerals than what they can be bothered to mine and US bases were never part of the equation before 2014.
This is a imperial conquest for land plain and simple.

[msc545]

@Pohjolan ok, for land. Still...

[OneViewpoint]

Because it would be a slaughter between NATO air power and state of the art combined arms forces going at Russian and Korean conscripts using tactics derived from WWII battles.

That would leave Putin few options other than to withdraw in humiliation or use tactical nukes on the battlefield citing NATO aggression on Russian borders. That could then escalate to the US using tactical nukes in retaliation. And then we're at the final decision before doomsday. Strategic nuclear first strike by one side or the other. So far nobody wants to test that.

[combative]

So go enlist in the Ukrainian army with your tranny fiends. No one ever stopped you. You even received a stimulus check to buy a plane ticket. If you think people should fight for Ukraine against Russia, then you've had years to stand on what you claim to believe, but here you are on the internet rather than in Ukraine. It's pretty clear you don't believe what you say.

[FreyaRed]

US would never do that. Why? Because fearsome Russia serves US interest of fear balancing in EU.
However it think Trump is insane and everything can happen if Putin hurts Donald's ego too much while ignoring him.

[Twalli]

Putin is a strong manly man. At least that's how he portraits himself. Much like feeling like a winner whrn he is with winners, Trump feels strong and manly with Putin.

[OddBeMe]

@freyared i don't understand what a country with a GDP on par with Mexico should be feared at all.

Its honestly like Tesla's overpriced valuation. If any other car company did as poorly as tesla they'd be forced into bankruptcy

[Dargil]

It is not our problem. With EU's population 50% greater than ours and having the second highest GDP in the world, this is their job, Don't you agree?

[OddBeMe]

You right wingers never understand the importance of setting up future capitalist customers. Trump literally makes tariffs based on emotion.
https://youtu.be/Kj6aSGiIJaw?si=FWe5tKfVgSYfTEsv

[Dargil]

Changing the subject from boots on the ground, I see.

[OddBeMe]

No dumbass. Boots on the ground would mean near immediate end of Russian invasion. Further collapse of Russian economy and his oligarchs. A free Ukraine to join the EU and to start buying American shit

And possibly soon a free Russia to start buying and selling shit. You right wingers need a Econ 101 course asap

[Dargil]

Makes (no) sense to me. Be nice. No name calling. Force your Commie self to be civilized.

[OddBeMe]

Bringing countries into our trade groups makes no sense to you?

[Dargil]

The only blood that should be in Ukraine would be supplied by the Red Cross. An exception is if Zel signs off on a minerals for military aid deal. Then we have technicians there. If Vlad bleeds them, he has a problem. Full Stop.

[OddBeMe]

Spoken like an anti-war isolationist in 1941 America.

[NathanDavis]

because we're trying to profit from it...

so, the longer it goes the better for us...

[OddBeMe]

Not sure that's true. More true for putin and his oligarchs.

[Berethor]

A war between US and Russia can lead to a nuclear holocaust, Ukraine don't worth it.

[OddBeMe]

There’s been plenty of skirmishes between nuclear powers the last 30 years. The deterrent is working because no one wants it.

If we simply set up a no fly in all of Ukraine Russian forces would collapse.

[exitseven]

Nobody wants to send their kids into a country thousands of miles away to fight in a war that we have no stake in.

[OddBeMe]

Then why is there a volunteer army? Just a socialist job program for high school dropouts?

[exitseven]

@OddBeMe We had a volunteer army because the Vietnam was was very unpopular and if a politician ever pushed the idea of starting the draft again they would be out of office so fast their head would spin.
We never had a problem attracting good people to serve in the military until Biden was elected and tried to make the military go woke.
The military is not just a place for drop outs. Before Biden they had no problem recruiting enough talented people. The military rejected a lot of people who were uneducated or had police records or too fat.
When I was a kid if you got arrested and went to court the judge would give you the choice of go to jail or join the army.

[OddBeMe]

So they volunteered. I don’t want to send them to war for no good reason. But Putin is out on a limb and we could cut it off right now. If we moved in now Russia would fall. We wouldn’t set foot in Russia. Just break his army and cause massive economic collapse. Then pick up the pieces. Like after ww2

[msc545]

Russia is not going to "fall". What will fall are missiles armed with nuclear warheads on our cities if we fuck with Russia, which you seem oddly eager to do. Why is that?

[OddBeMe]

@msc545 Hitler had VX gas and refused to use it as the Allies surrounded him. Probably because they’d respond with equal- or exponential- reciprocity..

[msc545]

The Russians aren't going to be as careful. There is absolutely no reason that the US should get physically involved in Ukraine. We need to stop being the world's policeman because we fail badly at it and it winds up costing us a hell of a lot of money. Not to mention the risk that it puts actual US citizens at.

[msc545]

This is one of those times that you and I completely agree.

[msc545]

Yes, absolutely correct. This is Ukraine's problem not mine or yours or our countries problem.

[msc545]

The Army does not exist to keep feeding the US military-industrial cartel more money. No more goddamn blood for money deals like every US war after WW II. Fuck that.

[ProbablyClueless]

Because there's no benefit to having Ukraine in NATO. And it's really obviously going to turn out a lot longer than a weekend.

[Syntosi]

You mean except for putting NATO on more of Russias borders?

[ProbablyClueless]

@Syntosi No. Because there's no strategic benefit to it. We already have plenty of contact with Russian borders without NATO and we already control the sea trade routes that Russia relies on to in the Black Sea.

And it's especially not a benefit when Russia made has made it crystal clear from the 90s that Ukraine joining NATO was a red line for them. Russia has made a number of good faith attempts over the years to maintain peaceful relations with the EU and the West.

[Syntosi]

Applying more pressure on your enemy and expanding your strategic options as well as allies has no "strategic benefit to it"? Well that is news to me.

Also I dont care what Russia says are their red lines. They lie. And no, Russia does not do good faith attempts at negotiations. For example, this is already like the 4th or 5th time that Russia has broken their agreements with Ukraine alone. They demonstrably does not respect agreements, Ukraine or the West. Negotiating with them is a waste of time and good ink.

[ProbablyClueless]

@Syntosi Counter point; it's better to avoid getting into fights you don't need to get into.

[OddBeMe]

Not even just nato. The EU. Ukraine and Russia. Start free trading. EU would immediately improve the lives of all 200+ million russians

[Syntosi]

@ProbablyClueless
Counter point; Russia is specifically aiming at USA and the West. Avoiding conflict with Russia is entirely reliant on stopping their plans and getting in the way. If given the time to prepare and an opening then Russia will invade so sitting back and allowing them to do whatever is the wrong move.

[OddBeMe]

@Syntosi counter to counterpoint: it’s Putin and Co targeting the west. Like Germans and Japanese after ww2, Russia could become a capitalist superstar.

[ProbablyClueless]

@Syntosi The only reason Russia has been aiming at us at all is because we keep antagonizing them.

[Syntosi]

@ProbablyClueless
No, they are aiming at USA because they want to be a super power. It is unavoidable as long as Russia has ambitions for becoming a great power.

[ProbablyClueless]

@Syntosi Nothing about the historical record (since the fall of the Soviet Union) indicates that that is true. The historical record actually shows the exact opposite. The Russians have wanted cooperation and peace with the US.

[Syntosi]

There has been no signs of Russia attempting to cooperate or seek peace with USA since the fall of the Soviet Union. Every agreement Russia has done has either been broken or done in bad faith. Putin has very explicitly moved Russia to be hostile towards the west and USA at every opportunity he has had.

It is very clear that Russia is looking to amass more power in an imperial sense AKA violating the sovereignty of the nations around them through diplomacy or war to incorporate them into Russia. Ukraine is just the latest victim in a long line of nations to suffer from Russias expansionism and there is nothing saying that nations such as Finland, Poland or the Baltic countries are not also on the list.

The fact is that you either stop Russia or Russia will dismantle and attack you instead. There is no paths towards a peaceful solution that does not begin with the destruction of the current Russian regime.

[ProbablyClueless]

@Syntosi I respect that you have your opinion, but I would say that you have some more reading to do. Have a good weekend.

[Syntosi]

This is not an opinion. This is historical facts.

[OddBeMe]

@ProbablyClueless Spoken like a true nazi apologist

[ProbablyClueless]

@Syntosi What you are saying is pure opinion.

[OddBeMe]

No @Syntosi is pretty much correct. You can do your own research into all the “deals” Putin has broken.

One was even Trump’s ceasefire in 2019. Broken.

[ProbablyClueless]

No, not really... Putin actually has a reputation for the being a straight shooter in world politics. The instant you look at those situations beyond the surface level and in historical context, Syntosi is totally incorrect.

The US and NATO have been incredibly abusive to Russia.

[OddBeMe]

Ahh so are you paid directly by Putin to parrot his bullshit?

[ProbablyClueless]

No. World politics is just one of the few subjects I actually know something about. I can also tell you how to make a great pot of chili.

[Syntosi]

Probably paid. No one can see the laundry list of violated agreements that Putin has signed and pretend that he is a "straight shooter". He has never had an honest contract in his life. Personally I would embrace that since he has an espionage background but the moment you want to try attribute some type of integrity onto him it just sounds farcical.

[ProbablyClueless]

@Syntosi Please educate yourself on this subject. "Back in 2000 Putin was actively calling for Russian membership in NATO; in 2001, attempting to become the United States’ most important ally, he gave orders to provide any assistance and support to American troops in Afghanistan; building a Greater Europe that would stretch from Lisbon to Vladivostok, Putin not only gave a speech in the Bundestag in German in which he proclaimed Russia’s European choice, but emphatically encouraged the exchange of capital assets for the creation of a common economic space." carnegieendowment.org/.../20-years-of-vladimir-putin-how-russian-foreign-policy-has-changed

and read "PUTIN’S INTERNATIONAL REPUTATION: IMAGE AND VALUES OF ATTRACTION" in www.tandfonline.com/.../15377857.2019.1678904

[ProbablyClueless]

"his is the crafty spymaster Putin who influenced then-President George W. Bush to utter, “I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy… I was able to get a sense of his soul” and similarly then-President Donald Trump to profess, “Every time he sees me he says, ‘I didn’t do that,’ and I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it.” In this telling, Putin is a sly and cunning opponent who has feigned becoming unhinged. This unsettles the rest of the world, impelling other leaders to give him a wide berth and acquiesce to his extreme behavior. By this analysis, Putin is cold and calculating, but not insane" thebulletin.org/.../

[OddBeMe]

@Syntosi I’m not sure he’s smart enough to ask for money. He should just move to Russia if it’s so great.

[Syntosi]

1: Saying one thing while being against it is just good politics and diplomacy depending on the situation. For example you could say that you are in favor of a ceasefire during a war while taking no steps to actually achieving one but because you are SAYING it then it becomes harder to call you out for doing nothing to stop the killing. As such, I take anything and everything that politicians and world leaders says and put it into the garbage bin where it belongs. Unless there is action behind it then its not worth my time.

2: If, for the sake of argument Russia wanted to destroy NATO and the nations in it then joining it first would be a GREAT way to do start since it gives you voting rights, resources and inside information.

3: Russia has been arming, funding and training the Taliban, including inside Afghanistan. Again, it does not matter if Putin is messaging as if he is your friend if he is simultaneously backstabbing you.

[Syntosi]

4: Russia would love to have more economic ties with Europe like with the energy deals that used to exist because those can be used as weapons like how Russia ruined Germanys economy by cutting off gas exports. The fact that Russia wants more knives to backstab you with does not make them friendly.

5: Not interested in Putins international image and propaganda. Because you know.. its propaganda. I have seen plenty enough of people posting that stupid picture of Putin riding his horse topless while proclaiming he is the "Mans man" that it is making me sick. Needless to say, carefully curated personas does not impress me and I can see the small man hiding underneath.

6: Putin is not a "crafty spymaster". If he was then he would not have to throw as many rich people from tall buildings to maintain control. He might be able to fool someone like Trump but he is also known as an idiot. Putin might be cold and calculating but he is not some kind of genius either and most people can see through his crafted image. Perhaps most demonstrated by the fact that Putin keeps launching wars that he loses.

[Syntosi]

@OddBeMe
Eh, might already be in Russia for all we know.

[ProbablyClueless]

@Syntosi The only thing funnier than an ignorant fool is one who sees the truth and chooses to stay a fool anyway

[Syntosi]

I could not agree more.

[Agape93]

Shit, drop me over there. It's tiger hunting season and all I see are crippled children.

[OddBeMe]

Still got that auto shotgun?

[Agape93]

Nah its my guys. I assume you mean the saiga?

[OddBeMe]

Whichever one is scarier

[Agape93]

Well the saiga is an automatic shotgun, and mins a pump

[Surely]

If Putin were to carry out his threats. It would turn nuclear. Putin won’t lose his war that he started! It would be better if Ukraine’s neighbors were to send in their troops.

[Anonymous]

why don't you send yourself or your own kids to go fight in a war instead of sending others to fight?

[seeyounexttuesday]

The day after you get on the front line is the day I will support US troops in Ukraine.

[OddBeMe]

Again... I dont have to do what I'm calling for politically. There's a fckin volunteer army for that.

[seeyounexttuesday]

Yes you do. No more of this bullshit.

[OddBeMe]

Brilliant response. Need I say double dog dare?

[seeyounexttuesday]

No, you need to get your chubby ass in a set of fatigues.

[Anonymous]

Because every realistic and reasonable person knows that it would cause WW3, nuclear holocaust and possibly the destruction of planet Earth.

[Filthy_Immigrant]

instead of worrying about our military why dont you go fight for Ukraine yourself.

[RedInnocent69]

To not directly engage in a war with a quasi superpower

[Twalli]

Because in the current political climate we'd be fighting for Russia in thst war.

[msc545]

Not our country, not our war, not our problem.

[dustybiker2]

Because it makes the US look bad toward Russia.

[DrPepper12]

Well MAGA? Why not?