Why do some of us women "slut shame" other women?

[debbiedenise]

A friend and I were talking about behavior. She made an interesting observation. Why do some of us "slut shame" other women. We are supposed to be "modern women," but it does occur. Wouldn't it be nice if we could just build each other up?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

As cupcake said, it is not a man's "privilege" to do that, it is not gender-based because it is a culture injecting that idea in us. Or more like a cultural blend forged around a certain idea of morality, you can thank three old monotheism for implanting this idea.

Modernity is not gonna be enough to overcome completely a software dating back from 2000 years or more. It requires effort, awareness and efforts again :)

[d0x000]

Your comment seems contradictory. If we follow this line of thinking, "modern women" tend to wear as little clothing as Neanderthals did 40,000 years ago, or perhaps even less. As humans progressed, we started putting on more clothes until we got to the point where everyone was fully covered. I believe this represents the epitome of human progression in clothing. Now, women are just going back to the Neanderthals era, as well as men.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

@d0x000
I don't follow the logic you're using here, who says wearing more clothes is a good or a bad thing, nature, god, galaxies? Who and why using that to draw any relevant conclusion for human condition?

[d0x000]

Then the statement "Modernity is not gonna be enough to overcome completely a software dating back from 2000 years or more" is an irrelevant thing to say if you don't believe in following my logic.

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Clothes, pragmatically speaking this is a protection from nature, from weather and predators. Cosmetically speaking it is fashion, trends and market. Morally speaking, and that's the problem we're talking about it seems, clothes are what a designated source of morality wants to see. Certain sources are shoving their obsolete morality into people's throats, nor hard to spot where these sources are, what they do and what their goal is: Crowd control by force.

If what I said was not enough, I can explain how nasty it is to control women's clothes as if there as an issue with women. The issue is uneducated men, aggravated by hypocritical traditions, aggravated by some entire states and churches hammering this idea that women should cover their bodies. For what? Because sons are not educated to handle sexual frustration nor to understand it. Because sons are sexually educated by a theocratic system of idiocy reproducing itself. This is not women's fault here, nor women's clothes. This is man's idiocy elevated to virtue. Easy to call bullshit on this masquerade.

[d0x000]

So what you're saying is, women (or people in general) can wear whatever they want without the intervention of others?

[d0x000]

Or let me say "should" be able to wear whatever they want without human intervention?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

It's a should be, indeed, and that's one of the things modernity is struggling with

[d0x000]

Then where do we draw the limits? Or do you believe there shouldn't be?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

I don't have the power nor the need to draw limits for people. What I'm looking at is the moral compass I have, deriving from my upbringing, my surroundings and my experience

[d0x000]

Okay so, for example, is it appropriate for a kindergarten teacher wear a micro bikini to class?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

It would be more interesting to find a realistic situation, or else you'll have me going surreal. It's probably not what you want to hear lol

[d0x000]

No I'm just trying to know the limits. It's only natural that I make up extreme cases and work it down to your so-called "realistic situation". I'm sure there's at least one woman in the world who might have such an idea. Is she allowed to do so?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

@d0x000
Unproductive to me to speculate for a single case. We're talking about society, only the collective matters, an isolated individual behavior is meaningless in this context.

[d0x000]

No no, it does matter. Because you're projecting a statement that should apply to all women, not the majority. Or do you think that there should be some category of women where this idea should not be applied to?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

What I'm projecting are at least three moral takes I believe in, related and separated at the same time, working in a dynamic system:

- The right of individuals to self-determination as an individual right
- The right of peoples to self-determination as a collective right
- Woman or Man does not exist, only women and men

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Working together, or conflicting, and it has to be conflicting, to an extent

[d0x000]

Yes, to an extent. And that is what I am asking you about. What extent? What is the limit? And who gets to make up the limit?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

To what extent looks unpredictable to me, given the complexity of the dynamics
The limits themselves, in practice, are defined by laws and customs of a specific place.

[d0x000]

Laws and customs. So, for example, in Qatar where I live, you have no problem with the minimal amount of clothing a woman should be able to wear to be the Hijab?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

I have a fundamental problem with laws and customs of a place like Qatar, and I think it is perfectly understandable given what I believe in. This place is the antithesis of what I find right. Such a theocratic system, in essence, is blocking self-determination of individuals, self-determination of peoples, gender emancipation, restraining justice... I mean, it's just wrong on too many accounts to me.

But I don't live there, what I see or what I believe has no real significance there anyway. It's another planet.

[d0x000]

I know you have a problem with it, and I know what we practice is the opposite of you believe is right. And it remains what it is, your belief. Assuming that the majority in your community share the same belief as yours, certainly there's a conflict of ideas between your community and mine. But it ends there, isolated communities, each with their own limits. It doesn't project those limits universally, does it? Because we can't claim one community morally superior than another, right?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Tricky because, while Qatar or any very tradition-based environment is another planet, seen from my place, cultures aren't completely isolated either. So it cannot end there. It would be simpler if the containment you mean existed, but in reality it does not. Culture is power and this world is globalized. Culture, beliefs and money, they are travelling in all directions, country borders can't do anything against that.

It's usually not a problem, it should not be a problem, unless beliefs are incompatible.

Given the level of incompatibility we're talking about between a place like France and a place like Qatar, there is not a single bridge possible to look at. Given what I believe in, the beliefs of your place are a threat. I don't fight such threats with guns, I fight them with other tools, more coherent with my belief system. Me and many others.

[d0x000]

But why though? Why should you believe your community possesses moral superiority over other communities?

[Maybe_Maybe_not]

Well, I gave you the reasons, and you already read them. The entire causal chain that is making me believe in the values I believe in is a long and complicated road, I cannot sum up a lifetime in a few sentences.

It's complicated but it's also simple, when one believes that systemic oppression is wrong, he cannot agree with one believing that systemic oppression is desirable. Fundamental incompatibility here.

[NathanDavis]

some people are just douchebags... regardless of gender

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Internalized misogyny is often the reason why women engage in patriarchal behaviors meant to tear women down or make them “lesser” in a social space.

[d0x000]

What is slut shaming?

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

When you tell a woman that her sexuality is a bad thing

[d0x000]

A slut is a woman who expresses her sexuality?

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Yes, that’s usually how it goes. What men tend to be praised for is the same reason men (and women who have internalized misogyny) shame women. Sleeping with too many guys, etc.

[d0x000]

According to the dictionary, a slut is "a woman who has many casual sexual partners." Why is being promiscuous a good thing?

And, that's not true everywhere. Where I come from, people shame both men and women who are promiscuous.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Why should sex be shamed at all? It’s literally how you and I were made to exist in this world

[d0x000]

I didn't say sex should be shamed. I am talking about promiscuity. And I never even said promiscuity should be shamed. I just asked why it's a good thing.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

It’s not a good thing, shaming the enjoyment of sex falls under purity culture, which doesn’t really do anything but inhibit and shame people.

[d0x000]

Again, I'm not talking about sex. Married people can enjoy sex, and no one shames them. I'm talking about promiscuity. I'm still trying to understand why shaming promiscuity is misogynistic.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Because people would rather shame women for having sex, comparing it to prostitution, because it goes against the principles of the church

[d0x000]

For the third time, I'm not talking about sex. I'm talking about promiscuity. They're two different things.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Yes, they call it promiscuity when it’s just sex and because unmarried people having sex and potentially making babies goes against the principles of the church, which is a HUGE part of the cultural foundation of most western nations.

[d0x000]

No, promiscuity is not just sex. It's casual sex, and it's not healthy at all.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

That is incredibly debatable and it’s also a debate I’m not willing to have in a comment section

[d0x000]

Then where are you willing to have it?

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

This entire thing has been exhausting, I’d rather not at all anymore. Have a nice one

[d0x000]

Exhausting for discussing your claims? Maybe you just didn't know what you were talking about in the first place.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

You don’t need my permission to think whatever you want. I don't know why you need my validation to move on without debating it

[d0x000]

I don't really need your validation. It's just that it seems hypocritical to make claims and not be able to defend them.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Why do I have to debate you?

[d0x000]

You don't, and it's not a debate. But you did the moment you replied my comment, and didn't completely defend your claim. And now you want to quit.

Well, all power to you if you want to quit. I'm not holding you back.

[CupcakeTheDestroyer]

Cool, goodnight

[Nikki1989]

It largely stems from jealousy.

[AnonAndrew]

Because our cultural has twisted values around sex, and bombards us from a young age that "if a woman enjoys sex with multiple men, she is bad!"

A stupid message (promiscuous women are not bad, they are great!), but hard to disregard after a lifetime of hearing it. Plus, for some women it's an easy way to put other women down for something that is completely natural behavior.

I think we should start celebrating it instead. I don't mean by stupid stuff like "slut walks," but by treating women with more respect the higher their partner count is.

Honestly a woman with a high partner count is a more desirable partner anyway to those of us men who have a healthy view of human psychology and sexuality.

[LiamJHayden]

Ultimately it comes down to being a busybody, minding other people's business when not invited to and when they are not breaking the law.

[Anonymous]

Because the assumption is that hoes are costing them men by thier antics. The reality is those men are trash an that hoe is doing her a favor. Because no decent guy settles for a slut.

[Anonymous]

It's because of patriarchal systems that are in place to make women hate themselves.

[d0x000]

It's always about the patriarchy. It seems women aren't autonomous enough to take accountability for their actions.

[jahaims]

Because deep down they know it's disgusting and disrespectful to hate yourself enough to be a slut.

[msc545]

Perhaps Jealousy?