Is my niece's punishment fair?

[Anonymous]

She's currently 15 years old and has been acting out ever since she became a teenager.
So when I visited my sister and her over the other day she opened the door barefoot which already was a bit strange because I had never seen her without socks before. And not only that, she made a lot of housework by herself and she was unexpectedly kind. But her mother, a few hours earlier, didn't allow her to go for a walk with her friends. After she kindly offered me a chair to sit and made a favor for her mom, she told her something like: "Is this enough?" and her mom said: "Yes". Then she went in her room and she came back wearing her socks and slippers and with a smile in her face.
Later my sister told me that she found out her weakness that she hates her feet being seen and from now on, when she would do something bad, she would make her go barefoot until she feels really sorry about what she had done.
So what do you think about all that? Do you think it is a fair punishment or does it cross a line?

[Bananaman177]

It's an excellent punishment because it will also help her build up her mental toughness and resiliency in the face of her own weaknesses. This is the highest level of parenting, not only correcting a minor behavioral infraction, but addressing an underlying mental weakness, and thereby forcing the child to develop true inner strength in order to not only endure their punishment, but truly to overcome it.

It is a truly excellent and very intelligent punishment and I give your sister the very highest commendation for it.

We punish our children, ideally, not only so the world doesn't have to, but so the world isn't able to.

[Asker]

My sister would love your answer as she was also a bit insecure about this idea of hers. So you say that it's ok to make her go barefoot in front of strangers whenever she misbehaves?

[Bananaman177]

It's okay to force your child to outgrow their weaknesses. Full stop.

[Asker]

So you say she should force her to go barefoot until she's not embarrassed about it anymore?

[Bananaman177]

The point isn't to eliminate her embarrassment completely, but to develop her ability to do the right thing no matter how embarrassing it may be.

A lot of people live as prisoners of their own sense of embarrassment. If you don't MAKE your kids become strong, they usually won't do it on their own.

[Asker]

OK so she can't wear her socks anymore whether she likes it or not. Her mother insist that the punishment must last at least a week but she's begging her not to do it at least for tomorrow as her friends will be coming over. So should she make an exception there?

[Bananaman177]

Let her make a trade. One day off for an extra week of punishment.

[Asker]

But isn't this punishment ineffective if no one sees her?

[Bananaman177]

It's probably already had as much effect as it's going to. This isn't going to be the be-all, end-all of fixing her behavior and attitude forever. You can only get so much mileage out of a single punishment before it starts to become counter-productive.

Over-punishment has the same exact effect that no punishment has, it encourages the child to become rebellious for rebellion's sake. The same way that over-watering a plant and under-watering it look the same when you examine the leaves, making them look dry, discolored, and wilted. An inexperienced gardener will see their plants looking thirsty and instinctively water them more, killing them.

If the punishment becomes too severe for the crime, it loses all meaning and only creates resentment instead of respect. It's good to leave room for negotiation and even bargaining so the child develops those skills as well, and so the parent is still seen as a reasonable and approachable authority figure.

A lot of children get into bad trouble in their later years because they are afraid to ask their parents for advice, since their parents were always strict and uncompromising, there seems to be no value in talking to them about their concerns. The worst thing that can happen is for a child to see their own parents as an enemy to hide from and deceive instead of their strong and wise ally, tough but fair, to whom they can always speak freely and expect a reasonable answer in return.

[Asker]

So you think that punishing her in front of her friends is too severe?

[Bananaman177]

Not really, but the punishment has already had it's intended effect, now you can use it as an opportunity to teach different lessons beyond the original purpose of the punishment.

Now instead of merely addressing one incident of misbehavior, you can use it to reinforce other, positive behaviors, which is more valuable than merely correcting the original problem, now you're helping to prevent future problems you can't even foresee.

[Asker]

How exactly can we do that? You're very helpfull but please be more spesific.

[Bananaman177]

I will say that in general, when it comes to girls, a little embarrassment goes a long way, a lot longer than it would for the average boy. Boys are much more independent from their peers, girls use their peer group to help define themselves and their own feelings. Girls who become estranged from their peers seem to take much greater damage from it.

[Asker]

So never punish her in front of her friends?

[Bananaman177]

By granting her the reprieve she asks for, you teach her that it is worth her time and effort to share her feelings, thoughts, and concerns, you teach her that you will listen and judge fairly.

By extending the length of the punishment in addition, you still maintain the benefits of the original punishment as far as making her regret her misbehavior.

If you just cancelled the punishment as soon as she asks, you would effectively be teaching her to beg for mercy, because it might work. It's better to make the reprieve conditional, so she learns to negotiate and bargain for mercy, not just beg for it.

Negotiation and bargaining are dignified. Begging is not. You never want to teach a kid to beg like a dog. But you do want to teach them that the essence of compromise is to both gain and lose, and to think about what things are worth and decide what to do based on that.

[Asker]

OK how about this? She must start the day barefoot when her friends comes over. But if she acts really kind and ask for her socks nicely during the day (like she did with me) she can get them back later. I guess that suits what you just said right?

[Bananaman177]

Not "never punish her in front of her friends," but try to do so sparingly. Keep in mind that the punishment must always fit the crime. Only embarrass her in front of her friends if her crime is severe enough to merit it.

Just keep in mind that it may seem much more severe to her than it does to you. Just the mere THREAT of doing it can be more effective than actually doing it.

I personally believe that it's more effective in the long run to err on the side of mercy, keep punishments confined to the psychological effect as much as possible. It's enough that she THINKS about how embarrassing it could have been, and then if she continues to misbehave, you can double-down and make her really experience it.

A first-time offense should be under-punished and a repeat offense should be over-punished, in my opinion.

[Bananaman177]

I was thinking of much the same proposal. Make her open the door barefoot, but let her put socks on for the rest of the hang-out.

[Asker]

OK I hear you and will let her mother about what you explained to me. So she must open the door barefoot and then immediately goes to her room and wears her socks back? Or is there a condition for it?

[Bananaman177]

Maybe you should make her ask permission, like last time.

I like the idea of extending the punishment in exchange for a temporary reprieve. Mercy, but for a price. And it should be a big enough price that she really has to think about whether she wants it as much as she thinks she does.

[Bananaman177]

Tell your sister to use her own judgment, she knows her daughter better than I do. Her judgment is worth more than my theories, regardless.

[Asker]

So after greeting her friends when she asks for her socks back (if she does it kindly) should her mother tell her that she'll have to be barefoot for another week if she does that?
Your theories are very accurate in my opinion.

[slatyb]

It's not a fair punishment. It's abusive. This teaches nothing, it's just a move in a part struggle.. Eventually the parents lose because the child grows up. And what will they have been taught? Nothing. What works? Natural and logical consequences.

[Asker]

Yeah I first thought that too, but she really seemed to learn her lesson. So as long as it works?

[slatyb]

No, not as long as it works. Yes, she learned not to repeat whatever it was as long as she's living with her parents. What happens when she's not living with her parents? What have they taught her, besides to do as you are told when there's someone bigger around? They haven't taught her anything useful.

[Asker]

Yeah but that's the general issue with the punishments...

[slatyb]

So I stand by my statement that using embarrassment for punishment is abuse.

[scarlett774]

Humiliation is not a punishment that rehabilitates and teaches you anything.

[Asker]

Yeah I first thought that too, but she really seemed to learn her lesson. So as long as it works?

[DanaeAdam5]

It's seems kinda disturbing to me, I mean she humiliates her child

[DanaeAdam5]

*it seems

[Asker]

Yeah that was also my first impession. But as long as it works?

[DanaeAdam5]

The kid definitely deserved a punishment but exposing her insecurity doesn't seem fair to me.

[Asker]

But would this do any real harm on her?

[DanaeAdam5]

It will most likely hurt her confidence and her relationship with her mother

[Asker]

So her mother should not do it even though it works?

[DanaeAdam5]

No I don't think that she should. I feel like she should instead sit down with her daughter and talk about her rebellious behaviour and what is causing it more.

[Asker]

Yeah she already tried thet a lot of times I guess thats why she opted for punishment at this time.

[DanaeAdam5]

Yeah this punishment is gonna work temporally tho :/
In a few weeks she will probably have to deal again with her daughters bad attitude

[Asker]

She says that if she misbehaves again, she'll take away her socks again...

[Lone_wolf122]

I thought i was the only one that didn't like my feet to be seen when I was young... I'd say it's a fair punishment.. Effective but not too harmful or disturbing

[Asker]

Nice you can put yourself in her shoes then. How would you feel if you were forced to go barefoot in front of strangers as punishment?

[Lone_wolf122]

You mean like a kid? I wouldn't like it at all but It wouldn't be severe

[Asker]

So you say that it's ok to make her go barefoot in front of strangers whenever she misbehaves?

[Lone_wolf122]

Yeah but not like always... Kinda need to come up with something else...

[Asker]

Why? Do you have any other ideas?

[Lone_wolf122]

It's not that healthy if the punishment is about her body or looks... Maybe not give her stuff when she asks

[Asker]

Yeah and maybe she won't feel uncomfortable being made to go barefoot after some time right? Like taking away her phone?

[Lone_wolf122]

Yes stuff like that

[Asker]

But you say that this punishment is also good as it's effective right?

[Lone_wolf122]

Yeah for one time... On regular basis it would be disturbing

[Asker]

Yeah but my sister sounded like she plans to use it on regular basis so should I try to stop her?

[Lone_wolf122]

Yeah if you can help that would be better... I would tell my sister that too... She has annoying kids too lol

[Asker]

Maybe your sister should also use this punishment:)

[Lone_wolf122]

Hahaha can't they're always going barefoot they actually hate shoes those crazy twins

[Lone_wolf122]

They're also really young.. Not that consent lol

[Asker]

Hi again, so her mother insist that the punishment must last at least a week but she's begging her not to do it at least for tomorrow as her friends will be coming over. So should she make an exception there?

[Lone_wolf122]

Yes !..

[Asker]

So she should make exception? But isn't the punishment ineffective if no one sees her?

[Lone_wolf122]

It's been a couple of days right? She should stop it... At least when she's with her friends.. you said she's 15 right? Imagine explaining to her friends that she has to show her feet against her will lol

[Asker]

Yeah her mother insisted the punishment should last for a week. Yes she is 15. I know that it'll be hard for her to even explain it is a punishment right? Do you think it's way too cruel to make her do that?

[Lone_wolf122]

Now, yes.. definitely

[Asker]

Can you explain why exacly? I know that you can put yourself in her shoes.

[Lone_wolf122]

Because now it's getting too far.. It was mild but now she wants her like that with her friends.. not cool

[Asker]

Yeah it's hard to convince her mother about that. Do you think that her friends would care that much?

[Lone_wolf122]

I don't know to be honest

[Asker]

But then why did you said that it's getting too far? Your opinions are really helpful by the way thanks for answering my questions.

[Lone_wolf122]

Too far because now she wants her to do it with her friends which is too much that's what I said... Thanks you're welcome

[Lone_wolf122]

Her friends will find it weird probably

[Asker]

OK how about this: she will get to wear socks that day but as a consequence the punishment will extend for 1 more week?

[Lone_wolf122]

Yeah although it's not that settled but that seems kinda fair

[Asker]

But her mother still insist that she must open the door and greet them barefoot. After that if she acts kind and asks nicely she'll allow her to wear socks (like what I witnessed before). Is it fair?

[Lone_wolf122]

Yes.. Everyone gets the idea but also meet in the middle

[Asker]

Yes but do you think that my niece would accept this? Her friends will see her barefoot plus she'll get additonal one week punishment. What would you do?

[Lone_wolf122]

I'm sorry this is taking so long 😄.. I'm doing something now... Final thought yes that seems somewhere in the middle... nothing she can do really if her mother insists.. After it's done you could talk to her about finding something else for punishment... Sorry i won't be able to reply again I'm kinda busy now.. Good luck 😊

[Asker]

That's OK thanks. I don't know why should I talk her to find another punishment now as this one seems to work really nice so far. I'm just trying to find a middle point as you said. Her mother was thinking about taking away all her socks and slippers to make sure she doesn't cheat. Do you think that's a good idea?
You can answer when you have the time but please do (within a day if possible) as I think this is a important subject.

[Dinosaursandanime65]

If her feet are fine then she is fine. As in a rock and a small piece of glass don’t stab them.

[Asker]

Yeah she's forced to do it only at home, as far as I know. Is it a fair punishment then?

[Dinosaursandanime65]

It could have been worse John... a lot worse. So, yes it is.

[Asker]

Her mother insist that the punishment must last at least a week but she's begging her not to do it at least for tomorrow as her friends will be coming over. So should she make an exception there?

[Dinosaursandanime65]

Only if she’s been behaving well

[Asker]

She's behaving quite well actually after she got the punishment. But the punishment has no effect if no one sees her right?

[Dinosaursandanime65]

Oh, a lack of integrity I see. Yes, the punishment is necessary

[Asker]

So you say that she shouldn't make any exceptions and make her go barefoot it in front of her friends despite her pleas?

[Dinosaursandanime65]

If a chick doesn’t stay in the nest what do you think Willa happen?

[Asker]

Do you mean if she runs away from home?:)

[Dinosaursandanime65]

No. It doesn’t matter if she acts polite after behaving bad, a punishment is still needed. Not the kind we all would like.

[Asker]

But you said before "Only if she’s been behaving well" for her mother to make an exception in the punishment. Did you change your mind?

[Dinosaursandanime65]

Did... I say something confusing. It seems I’ve zigged when I should have just quit and gone home. Ok. If she’s bad, YES punishment. If she’s good, NO punishment. I she bad when no ones around, YES punishment. I don’t know why am I even giving parenting advice anyway? I don’t have a single f*cking point of experience for this.

[Asker]

Your opinions still matter:) So if she's been temprorarily good and people around?

[Dinosaursandanime65]

Heh heh heh... “good girl” ahahahaaaa- *throws up Bloth”

[Asker]

Be serious, your opinions may decide her fate:)

[Dinosaursandanime65]

But uhh yes. She should always be good. Everyone. Maybe, I’m still debating on if there’s balance with hood AND evil. Or if there’d be balance if there was ONLY good.

[Asker]

soo?

[Dinosaursandanime65]

There, you are wrong. Only you and your Rigor Fate can decide those decisions. (Rigor Fate is similar to luck, the main difference is you can have a relationship with it (not romantically)).

[Anonymous]

Well its certainly not legal for a state to impose such a punishment on a citizen, people have the right to be protected from 'cruel and unusual punishments'

[Asker]

Yeah my sister must go to prison...

[Opinion Owner]

Thats not what i said.

[Asker]

I think you mentioned that it's illegal, so?

[Opinion Owner]

I said that the STATE is not allowed to punish its citizens in this way, at least in the UK.

It is called 'a cruel an unusual punishment'

[Asker]

So you say that it's too cruel?

[keenmind2007]

Sounds fair enough to me.

[Asker]

yeah but she seemed really uncomfortable, so is it ok to humiliate her like this as punishment?

[keenmind2007]

If her acting out doesn't make her feel uncomfortable, then something else should. Next time she thinks about doing something wrong, she'll remember this punishment.

[Asker]

So you say that she must go barefoot against her will everytime she misbehaves, like my sister?

[Asker]

So her mother insist that the punishment must last at least a week but she's begging her not to do it at least for tomorrow as her friends will be coming over. So should she make an exception there? What do you think?

[Yourman89]

Thats a weird punishment.. lol

[Asker]

Yeah at first I thought that too. But as long as it works?

[Yourman89]

Lol sure! Did she look miserable?

[Asker]

Yeah she looked really uncomfortable...

[Yourman89]

Hmm I feel like their is more to it lol

[Asker]

What do you mean?

[Yourman89]

Lol no clue but how would she even dream that up? Follow and pm me?

[Yourman89]

My question is, whats next?

[Asker]

Sorry I dont follow or pm strangers. And I really didn't get what you mean.

[Yourman89]

I mean, what is the next form of humiliation?

[Asker]

I don't know what are her plans if this doesn't work anymore or if she has any.

[Yourman89]

They will have to do something else eventually

[Asker]

Like what?

[Yourman89]

That I don't know..

[Asker]

Hello again, so her mother insist that the punishment must last at least a week but she's begging her not to do it at least for tomorrow as her friends will be coming over. So should she make an exception there?

[Yourman89]

I would if it bugs her that much.. sounds extreme. I guess it could be worse

[Asker]

So she should make exception? But isn't the punishment ineffective if no one sees her?

[Yourman89]

True but should they punish her in front of friends? Maybe some other punishment.

[Asker]

Is it really too cruel to make her do it in front of her friends?

[Yourman89]

I guess its just her feet. They prob wouldn't even notice. If it was anything other than feet it would

[Asker]

Yeah. And maybe her mother should have her socks back if she acts really kind and asks nicely right?

[Yourman89]

Exactly. Prove she deserves them.

[Asker]

What do you think can she do to deserve them?

[Yourman89]

That I don't know.. lol

[Asker]

Should she say that she's being punished if her friends notice her being barefoot?

[Yourman89]

Sure. Why not? This would be so much easier in pm lol

[Asker]

Sorry I don't wish to share my profile if you don't mind. But wouldn't it be humiliating for her?

[Yourman89]

Sure

[Asker]

OK you don't want to keep talking. Thanks for your answers so far, they've been really helpful.

[Yourman89]

Welcome