State your opinion without cursing or blaspheming God or else I will block you. Personally, I support 100% whatever The Most High does. May all those who oppose and hate the Lord of Glory suffer His eternal wrath! #Hell
Revelation 14:9-11:
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.
He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
The God of the Bible is clear that He's going to torture His enemies in a lake of fire with brimstone forever, what's your opinion regarding that?
My opinion is that’s justified. God is never wrong and never not fair. All were born in sin because of Adam, all can be redeemed through Jesus. However I do believe in predestination and God’s sovereignty. To anyone reading this, read your Bible and study it yourself to see if that’s correct. I believe God chooses who he will save. Some say if God chooses who he will save, then he also chooses who he will not save, and that is not fair. The bottom line is all of us, every last human who ever lived and ever will live deserves eternal punishment. I see God as exceedingly merciful that he saves any at all as none of us deserve eternal life.
So I see it as just God will punish sin. He is a just God and wrongdoings deserve punishment. For those who are saved, Jesus paid the penalty for our sins and took our punishment for us. For the unsaved, they will pay the penalty for their own sins.
For any who thinks he’s saved, be careful to examine yourself. Don’t be self deceived. There are many signs in the Bible regarding if one is saved. This being one of the many:
“And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” 1 John 2:3-4 KJV
The general life pattern of one who is saved is obedience. Jesus cannot be your savior if he’s not your Lord also.
Predestination is another misunderstood doctrine. It basically teaches if God picked you to be saved then you're going to inherit eternal life no matter what even if its against your will and that's not true.
I more or less believe that. The thing is, it’s not against your will. It’s what you would want. One whose been truly born again loves the Lord. Not only the Lord, but doing his will, reading the Bible, the justice and righteousness of God, fellowshipping with other Christians, in short loves the things of God. That’s one of the signs scripture gives for being born again.
So, the one who is truly saved won’t be dragged kicking and screaming to heaven, but would rather be nowhere else. No only to escape judgement but because he loves his Lord and wants to be near him and derives his greatest joy from serving him.
So, as I see it, God picks who he will save, draws them to himself, they then hear the gospel and believe, they become saved and then because they are saved they want to do the will of their Lord.
“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 KJV
That scripture doesn’t mean the born again can’t sin. It means they can’t perpetually sin willfully. They can’t live and remain in known sin. Why? Because Gods seed is in him... meaning the Holy Spirit. This is evidence of being born again. Because the Holy Spirit is in a Christian they can’t be comfortable in sin. They hate sin. The Holy Spirit will convict them. So they will repent. Therefore no one predestined to heaven is forced there against their will because upon being born again there becomes evident a change of affections from loving sin to hating it.
That's a tough one to muster... Here's my opinion: God is Love. He LOVES His children, and pities those who do not follow Him. He doesn't hate His children, just the Sin within us. He will have the Authority to throw us into that dark lake of fire, but He himself will not be a part of it... I don't think. That place is where He condemns us.
What I think is that the original Greek words for "forever" actually refer to long but finite periods of time.
You once brought up the fact that it uses the same word to refer to Christ's reign. That's true, but the Bible also says that Christ's reign is finite. It is eventually transferred to God the Father.
1 Cor 15 "25For he must reign, *****till***** he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, ***then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,**** that God may be all in all."
Also notice that the verse says that Christ destroys death. How is that possible if most of the world's population is infinitely undergoing the second death?
I'm sick and tired and angry of explaining the same thing to you. You don't freaking listen.
After I finish explaining for the last time don't argue and go back and forth because I will just ignore you.
Forever and eternal means exactly that. Forever, ok? That's what that word means, get that through your thick head.
And far you posting 1 Corinthians, your problem is that you don't understand the Bible, of course The Father is above the Son, nevertheless they both are "one" you would know that if you actually read the Bible.
And for the last enemy that will be "destroyed" is "death" you're taking the word destroy as it means to be alienated or don't exist anymore, which isn't necessarily depending on its context which can mean to ruined or brought to low a hurting manner.
In the book of Revelation it tells exactly what it means, the grave will be thrown into hell fire.
I have givin you before various scriptures clearly saying hell fire is forever. The fire never goes out. I'm going to post just two more to prove my point.
(Jesus himself speaking)
Mark 9:42-48:
“But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where
‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where
‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where
‘Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.’
But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
*Note: If you don't agree with God's ways and judgment then that's your problem. God isn't going to change to accommodate you and your feelings.
The Bible also said that Sodom was destroyed with an eternal fire. Is the fire still there where Sodom was? No, the fire lasted until it had done its job.
"Until" implies that Christ's reign ends.
No interpretation of the Bible that doesn't include universal reconciliation (after punishment/purification) makes any sense. "God is Love", and "tender mercies are over all of His works", yet God allows billions of people on earth to be born, knowing fully well that the vast majority of them will be sent to eternal torture? It's contradictory.
Thanks for providing the passage that supports my point.
The word "everlasting" is used to refer to the chains on the angels, and the verse says RIGHT AFTERWARDS that they will then be sent to Judgment Day. So are those chains actually lasting forever? It's a mistranslation of that word.
The verse says: "are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." The example is that they "are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." They did indeed suffer the vengeance of fire. Was the fire eternal? Did it last forever? Can you go to the place where Sodom once was, and find that it's still on fire? Or did the fire go out after it had done its job?
It's funny that you criticize me for not taking literally one set of words (forever, everlasting, & eternal), but in order to try to debunk ME, YOU are the one who has to resort to not taking literally an entire plethora of words, such as: -destruction -the word "all" (Christ is the savior of ALL, [God's] tender mercies are over ALL His works, etc) -God is LOVE (it doesn't say "God is Love... only to people who accepted Christ in their lifetime on Earth." It says God is LOVE. Period. That's it.)
Oh I know that God has commanded the deaths of numerous people. From a human perspective, this can be seen as unloving & therefore the Bible would contradict itself... unless we go with the teaching of universal reconciliation after punishment for one's sins (which is easy using the original Greek translation).
In that case, then we are talking about a God that is preventing people from further racking up more sins for which they need to be punished in the afterlife before being allowed in heaven. This ultimately decreases their overall suffering, and hastens their reconciliation to God. This is consistent with the Bible verse that God's tender mercies are over ALL of his works.
universal reconciliation only needs to "reinterpret" (go back to the original Greek for) the words for "forever". supporters of Eternal Torment have to somehow explain away all the verses saying God will restore ALL, God is LOVE, God's mercy is on ALL God's works, Christ is the savior of THE WHOLE WORLD, etc. Universal reconciliation is the only doctrine that makes any sense.
And we know that Jesus has already conquered death. We know what the outcome will be- God/Jesus will reign. The Millennium (also known as the Millennial Kingdom) is the 1,000-year reign of Jesus after the Tribulation and before all the people of the world are sent to either heaven or hell. Jesus will reign as king over Israel as well as all the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:4; 42:1). The world will live in peace (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:18), Satan will be bound (Revelation 20:1–3), and, at the beginning, everyone will worship God (Isaiah 2:2–3). The purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill promises God made to the world that cannot be fulfilled while Satan is free and humans have political authority. Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. All of these will be fulfilled during Jesus’ 1,000-year reign, which is just part of "forever". Amen!
@Massageman Well conquering death is different from destroying it, as is the word used in 1 Cor 15. Christ conquered death by rising from the dead, but death won't be destroyed until every human is no longer dead.
1 Cor 15 says that Christ reigns until all enemies are put under his feet, and death is destroyed. Elsewhere, modern Bibles say Christ's reign is "forever" - the original Greek is more appropriately translated "in the age of ages". This is the same word used to refer to existence in the Lake of Fire. So just like Christ's reign ends after death is destroyed, so would be the case for the Second Death in the Lake of Fire (it ends when death is destroyed).
Christians are meant to be "dead to self", so it's actually conceivable that death isn't infinite.
Its really really sad but there are people who give themselves to evil and greed to the point they lose their souls and all desire to do good. Jesus tells the parable of the prodigal son, showing how merciful God is, but if you never take the step to return and ask for forgiveness and you just sit there with the pigs starving and in despair, thats what hell is.
I can't believe that God is this cruel. Of course, he did rid the earth of people with the flood once before.
There are so many religions and text's, it's hard to know what to believe accept that there is a God, it' just hard to know exactly what he wants from us.
Yeah, man, God is extremely cruel towards His enemies. Those bastards, rebel, blaspheme and defile His holiness without repentance therefore their judgment is just as it should be.
But God is love. As Christians we are supposed to have and show forgiveness. Why would this same God condemn imperfect and lost souls he created? I am not asking you, I am just puzzled. I have been lost so many times. Sometimes I genuinely think God knew me in womb, and hated me. Building my love and trust of God has been a really hard journey.
Yeah, God is love, that is true, but God also has a very wrathful side to him reserved for the wicked and His enemies in hell.
2nd, God asks us to be forgiving because unforgiveness breeds bitterness and bitterness can cause a lot of problems in society.
Remember, God is ruler and judge and He does as He desires, He has no one above Him since He is The Most High; we obey Him, not the way around.
Lastly, if you're aren't being wicked and rebellious then God doesn't hate you. He only hates those who purposely rebel against him and sin without regard.
Psalm 5:4-6:
For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.
318 opinions shared on Religion & Spirituality topic.
I think the bible is an outdated fantasy. The idea of torturing enemies is a medieval fantasy that's only popular today among the uncivilized trump supporters and other conservatives.
So you hate Muslims, Buddhists, and other religious people as well? Or do you just hate Christians because your liberal brainwashing tell you this kind of hate is appropriate?
You are aware all of the Bible was written before the medieval time period right?
We also know our Bibles are accurate as they match the scriptures that have been discovered and dated well before the medieval time period in their original languages (Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic).
I can't copy and paste names on this thing, so I'll improvise: Cool guy, who in the world told you that anyone told me you were a trump supporter?
Kraken, so, do you just find words that make you mad and have this whole pre-written response ready to drop into the conversation? I don't know how much time you spent on it, but you should check that it is relevant to what you are replying to, first (ie ensure the word "hate" is somewhere before leaning too hard on the assumption that it is)
Exter, the crusades are what brought Christianity into the mainstream. And the right to torture enemies was a huge selling point. As far as accuricies go, no magical event has been confirmed to exist by any source, ever. The historical events are a different matter - you can't say that you drank milk while talking to aliens this morning, show a picture of you drinking milk alone, and use that as proof that you talked to aliens.
Every country and every religion has had its dark and bloody times. I am asking you why your liberal bias only hates Christians, when your logic applies to pretty much every other religion as well? Your answer ** crickets ** I am sure. Please learn to think for yourself, you will be a better person.
You clearly hate Trump and his supporters, and you equate those who read the bible to Trump supporters, so to did, by inference, state you hate Christians. Just own this.
You might be confusing the definition of "clearly" for "I really want to believe it because I can't think of how to adjust my argument to attack anything other than the straw man fox news showed me how to beat."
My response wasn't directed at you and yet you still took it as an opportunity to recite the one argument you've been brainwashed with. Pathetic (and sad)...
Oh, I was just reading the Apocalypse a few hours ago, it's one of my favourite parts of the Bible! I guess I understand why some people may see God as cruel for this, but I understand He's only fair and just. He is a loving Father who wants us to join Him in heaven, it is us, not Him, who can choose to give ourselves to the beast. I believe God will save everyone who repents and believes and asks for forgiveness and follows His laws, which, in my opinion, exist to keep us happy and safe.
All of that was written by angry, persecuted men seeking revenge in a time, thousands of years ago. Don't be manipulated by interpretations of ancient writings that are totally irrelevant, today!
I dont have children of my own but if I did I wouldn't be poisoning their minds by making them think that certain choices they make will send them to a mythical place where they're punished for all eternity or that certain people will be damned simply because they choose a different way of life. 🤷♀️
That's not what my Church teaches. My Church teaches love, forgiveness, acceptance, community, unity, and the critical importance of the family. We do talk about a path to salvation but never about "hell" as a consequence of failing to be all we should be. The critical idea is to TRY to be a good person and to do what you know to be right.
There are all kinds of churches and they will emphasize different aspects of life and scripture.
If you came to my Church (which has a very youthful vibe), with awesome live music, high-energy, smiles all around, lots of really awesome small groups (for people facing different life challenges), and many opportunities to make friends and help your community; I bet you would really enjoy yourself.
Im just curious, would you tell your kids that doing heroine will lead to a very bad life with a lot of suffering? Sin is heroine for your soul. If you steal and cheat and hurt people and care about no one but yourself, is that supposed to have the same result as being good and helping people? If you dont believe in God thats fine but just because christians teach about the consequences that come with evil doesn't make them bad. Thats what good parents do.
My child will know there's consequences for their actions but they will never be influenced to think that because a man loves another man he'll be punished for eternity regardless of how good a person he was. I won't have my child thinking that if they decide to engage in sexual intercourse before marriage that theyll be damned for it. No thank you.
No. Its literally impossible for anyone to believe in the gospel unless God grants it to you. It can't happen no matter how hard you try to believe in it.
So if people can't believe the gospel unless God lets them, then why is God eternally punishing people for not doing something that God didn't allow them to do?
Psalm 145:9 "The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works."
The Lord is good and merciful to all... except, apparently, the majority of the human population to whom God didn't grant belief in the gospel, no matter how hard they try to believe in it. /sarcasm
@mistixs: You are mad annoying and just ignorant of God and His word. Just stay away since you are so hard headed and always looking to argue what you don't know.
Listen @Anon: In order for a person to be saved God has to draw him or her through His Holy Spirit unto himself through the gospel of Jesus Christ, if God doesn't show them mercy then its impossible for them to come to Christ and be saved.
God isn't obligated to show anyone mercy, but only to whom He desires to.
If God doesn't show a person mercy, He by default causes a person's heart to be harden and gives them over to a depraved mind (sins) then condemned them for it. (Romans 1)
I'm going to post this scripture but not in it's full context since it's long but check it out.
Romans 9:14-23:
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”
So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory?
But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:
“Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.”
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” Ephesians 2:1 KJV
All at sometime were dead in their sins and trespasses. A dead man can do nothing. Now all were dead in their sins and trespasses and all deserve Hell. God by his grace decided to save some. The fact any at all are saved shows God is exceedingly merciful as NONE deserve to be saved.
Hispanic cool guy gave you some scriptures, here’s some more.
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” Ephesians 1:4-5 KJV
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37 KJV
How can salvation be our choice? Says “all the father gives to me shall come to me.” Where is choice in that matter?
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44 KJV
Bible is not provable to be remotely correct how many times has it been translated
Also what about the people living in places where literally no one knows about god they grow up say in North Korea or a remote island do they get punished or what if you believe in the wrong religions what then.
@Exterminatore the Bible also says that God isn't willing for anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, ***not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."***
And the Bible also says that Christ is the savior of the whole world, especially those that believe. How is Christ the world's savior, if God pre-selected only a few to be saved & for the rest of humanity to be tortured in hell for all eternity?
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and ****not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."***
1 Timothy 4:10 "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ****all men,**** specially of those that believe."
Did God have Christ sacrifice for ALL people, then only give belief in the Gospel to a select few? How does that make any sense?
The Bible is full of contradictions if the doctrine of Eternal Torment is true. Luckily a person only needs to look at the original Greek text to see that's not what the word translated "forever" actually means. The original word means "to the age of ages".
2nd Peter 3:9 is referring to the elect in regards to the Lords 2nd coming as far as I can tell.
Is he the savior of the whole world or those who have been born again? Will Hindus and Muslims be in heaven? Clearly he is not their savior.
1 John 2:2 - again if we’re talking about the whole world... will we see the unrepentant in heaven? I think not. If he wills none parish... then none would right?
I believe Christ’s sacrifice is only for the elect. The non elect will pay for their own sins.
The Bible is NOT full of contradictions it all comes down to correct doctrine.
To the age of ages meaning eternity. That’s not hard to see if you break it down etymologically. See if it’s not for eternity, then what did Christ save us from? We wouldn’t need him. We could just do our time in the Lake of Fire and then it would be over.
@Exterminatore "We wouldn’t need him. We could just do our time in the Lake of Fire and then it would be over."
The reason anyone is able to go to heaven is because of Christ's sacrifice. Without Christ's sacrifice, nobody would go to heaven, ever. That's why Christ died.
"Will Hindus and Muslims be in heaven? Clearly he is not their savior.
1 John 2:2 - again if we’re talking about the whole world... will we see the unrepentant in heaven? I think not. If he wills none parish... then none would right?"
That’s my point, so those who die without Christ go there for eternity.
There are things to be taken literally and things to be taken contextually. I think what John is saying is “look guys, Christ didn’t just die for us (the small group of Christians in existence at that time to whom John was writing) but the whole world (meaning missionaries will go to far of lands and preach to others and they will be saved and this will occur in other times and ages)
If Jesus is the savior of the whole world what do you make of this:
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 7:21 KJV
Soooo,... not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven... but I thought he was the savior of the whole world? Hmmmmm.
Kingdom of Heaven is an expression to mean 2 things, depending on which way it’s used. The spiritual kingdom of heaven. Where God and reformed believers and angels are, and the other is the church here on earth including all professing believers.
Listen, why do you want to split hairs here? The new earth will be part of the spiritual kingdom of heaven and will only include the redeemed in it.
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