I don't like X Culture. The American obsession with universality.

[RolandCuthbert]

I was invited to a take on "Ghetto" culture but of course, I couldn't participate. I think folks need to understand. I am the most blocked person on this site. So consider that when you try to invite me to takes you want my input on.

But because this topic is so interesting and so relevant to the discussions I have in my meetup groups, I decided to take this on.

So the take was about not liking Ghetto Culture. And it is just another one of those weird takes where folks are trying to navigate around in such a way to avoid being called racist. Which is hilarious. That whole weirdness deserves its own take.

But let's cut right to the obvious.

It isn't racist to dislike a culture.

If I don't like "White" American Culture. Or if you don't like African-American Culture that ain't racist.

Because that is about culture.

The problem is that most folks in GaG have it ass-backwards. They look at skin color or understand religious affiliation, etc. then make a bunch of nonsensical stereotypical assumptions. Just like they can get an understanding of a person's behavior or beliefs without ever understanding how that person culturally identifies.

I mean, a person is asked so little. Just to ask a question about another person's group identity before they get to the labeling stage. Because it is one of most insane things about the forum. That many folks really believe these weird labels can tell them anything about what a person believes. It is just too hard for folks here to ask a question about how a person identifies.

There was a hilarious meetup I conducted a few weeks ago after I came back from overseas. I really wanted to shake things up. So I took everyone out to a Somalian restaurant. I wanted to expose the group to culture shock. Because we have a bunch of folks who cling to this weird concept of multiculturalism. Somehow, someway their definition of multiculturalism is about learning to love every single culture. Which is hilariously wrong.

Somalis eat with their hands. And I picked lunch hour on a Sunday. So the restaurant was packed with folks, all eating with their hands. Of course, we had many in the group pretending like they were not disgusted or bothered by the eating habits of the other patrons.

And dudes, it was hilarious. One guy looked like he was going to puke and basically left 15 minutes after he arrived.

In the follow up meeting, I inquired with certain attendees and asked if they were taken aback by the restaurant. Of course, folks tried to put on a happy face but I pushed them into this conversation about culture. And the weirdness of American society is revealed. Folks really believed that if they dislike a culture, somehow that is racist. It is such an insane weird thing to believe.

Relating this to the take on ghetto culture. It is as though there is this obsession with some universal standard by which to rank all cultures has taken root because of American society's history and current issues with race and racism. So we get a take on how a person doesn't like a particular culture and he goes to great lengths to state what he believes to be universally accepted criteria for everyone to dislike it. That is totally unnecessary. I don't need a universally accepted reason to dislike a culture. I can learn about it and dislike it for my own subjective issues.

The funny thing is how politics makes no difference here. As both supposed conservatives and liberals are trying to navigate some make believe line of race and racism. When actually doing the hard work of understanding a culture's behaviors, traditions, cuisine, and beliefs is the exact opposite of what racism teaches. A person does the work and can actually speak with knowledge/understanding of an experience to reach a conclusion about whether or not they liked it.

Folks in the meetup group actually didn't get it for a long time. That disliking a culture because of the cuisine or for the dining habits or because of a set of traditions is fine. There is no need to attempt to find some justification.

The problem is that isn't how GaG operates.

Too many folks here subscribe to the batshit crazed racist insanity that there is a universal standard for evaluating all culture. And that if they dislike a certain cultural experience, every member of said culture needs to abandon or dislike their own culture too.

And it isn't just prejudiced, racist or bigoted. . .it is insane. If folks in the meetup group were disgusted with Somali Culture, which is their right, why in the ever living fuck would Somalis then come to the same conclusion? It is the only culture they have ever known. It is the only culture that gives them group pride. For most, it is the food they have eaten, it is the stories their parents/grandparents told them, it is the language/history they have learned. And there is no other cultural experience that will give a Somali American any pride or any sense of self-worth.

Multiculturalism is not about liking every culture. It is about every culture liking itself. Otherwise, the culture cannot exist. In order for you to enjoy an actual Pow-Wow, you need people who have pride in that tradition, in that experience and in that history.

[doopayo]

This is so true. I remember once my mom shared our cultural food (Haitian food) with people who’ve never ate Haitian food ever in their life and you could tell who the people who just refused to even try it we’re cause it “didn’t look appetizing” and others who embraced the difference of Haitian food that they weren’t familiar with.


Americans, specifically white Americans have a sort of superiority complex. and it’s due to looking down on literally almost every single country. Especially the “less developed ones”, I mean American history literally started with people calling the natives savages and them trying to “civilize” the natives by forcibly striping their culture from them. They also tried that shit with African Americans as well during slavery.


So the fact that people exist in America and hold the belief that immigrants in America need to “ assimilate to American culture” is honestly reminiscent to the past, it’s literally assuming that they’re so inferior just because of the culture that they come from. Or the fact we have people that want slavery to be taken out of schools, and the fact that schools rarely ever actually talk about the native struggle in America without bias to try and make america look good despite the fact that the red in the US flag literally symbolizes blood shed.


It doesn’t sit right with me that so many people believe that black and brown history isn’t “American history” or conservatives will get mad at black people for talking about the racism in America and tell them “than go back to your country” despite the fact that black Americans have literally contributed so much to this country but our history isn’t history to them.


They want our history and every other history that shows truth to be covered up and sugar coated at best. Erased from all history books at worst.


At least this is what I’ve been seeing. Another thing I’ll add is I hate how some white liberals will act like being racist is just another quirky belief or something, but I digress

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, let me unpack some of this first. I glad you like the take, but I don't have an issue with folks rejecting culture, traditions, or cuisine, once exposed. I of course, love Haitian food. But I am sure many folks do not or will not. I think the weirdness of American society is the attempt to convince people that their own culture should be abandoned. Or that their own culture isn't responsible for their success and can only be the source of negative influences.

I guess you understand the issue. In many circles, culture used to explain why non-"White" people fail or become criminals, etc. It is never because of their own individual choices or situations. When it comes to "White" people, it is the exact opposite. "White" American Culture can only be blamed for a "White" person's success and you will find batshit insane racists blaming a non-"White" culture for the failures of individual "White" folks.

As for the larger conversation of history, I feel similarly the way I do about culture. I don't know if this is a conservative view or not. It would seem to me that a conservative would support that different groups need to figure out what they wish to understand from a historical perspective. African-American history is important to African-Americans and to those who treasure African-American Culture. But there should be no requirement for everyone to know or understand it. It is important to the community. Because we all owe our freedoms to the people who died, who were beaten or sacrificed so that we could vote, seek meaningful lives, etc.

I would add one more point. That racism is insane. It has nothing to do with common sense. Just because a racist may want you to feel bad about your own cultural experience, that does not mean they want you to abandon your own group identity and take up theirs. It is almost like they want you in some kind of limbo. Because nothing pisses a racist off than interracial marriages, children and folks with mixed identities.

[doopayo]

Exactly ^ I honestly don’t think it’s a conservative belief though, I think today conservatism has really just been replaced with anti liberalism.

Actual conservatives would probably praise the black community in terms of the church and religion but instead you see conservatives almost exclusively talking about black on black crime, how black Americans have a victim complex because of the left, and how the black community could fix their problems if black families stayed together despite the fact that in the past when majority of black people had nuclear families we still had the same problems.

There are also straight up white supremacist psychos that hide under conservatism. I remember seeing a interview where these people went to a klan rally and a klan wizard was expressing their love for conservative values.

When they don’t have conservative values, they just have straight up fascist values. I mean their was even a huge scandal about Fox News hiring white supremacist.

There’s a difference between the far right and conservatism that seems to be being blurred.

[RolandCuthbert]

I think the issue is you are talking about Conservatism as purely an political ideology. Right now for all practical purposes Trump defines political conservatism, because he is the leader of the movement.

But I am talking about conservatism as a governing philosophy. I am talking about moral/ethical conservatism. I am talking about financial conservatism.

None of that matters to the so-called conservative movement. And even as we know where those folks heads are, that does not mean the original principles of conservatism were wrong. It is just the conservative movement was in such proximity to batshit insane "White" supremacy, it was co-opted. It could have been the liberal movement. Or libertarian.

Racists owe nothing to any political ideology, economic philosophy, etc.

As for real conservatives, I am certain they would say or would have said, the "Black" community needs to come together to solve issues of crime.

As for the fake kind, I am not sure why we would worry about that. No matter they say, they have no want or need to see an end to anyone's suffering. They only want to show that non-"White" cultures are inferior. That's all.

But I think we are talking about the same thing. I am just saying don't get caught up in the political labels. None of that matters anymore.

[doopayo]

I hear you ^^

[Juxtapose]

Expecting people to assimilate to the local culture is normal and healthy. If you moved to France they will expect you to assimilate there too.

[RolandCuthbert]

@Juxtapose Can you think of one single situation where that has ever happened?

Russians and Ukrainians are basically the same people. They speak basically the same language. They have very similar traditions and customs.

Yet they are killing each other in Dombass.

Nigeria is home to over 250 different ethnic groups. No one is giving up their culture.

In regular conversations in the normal world, I would just assume you mean that cultures change over time in proximity to each other. They began to adopt each other's images, concepts, language, etc.

But this is GaG, so you could not possibly mean that.

[CookiesAndCream2]

@doopayo - you said > Americans, specifically white Americans have a sort of superiority complex. and it’s due to looking down on literally almost every single country.

Thank you for proving you're as ignorant as any racist & thus racist.

You see "white" American culture is more than just "white people". Only an idiot would say that Italians, as example, have the same culture, beliefs, food, traditions, etc. as someone who is Russian.

Just as how a racist, in a way an idiot, would say all blacks eat this cuisine or believe in this religion when that isn't the case. Just as how a racist, in a way an idiot, would say all hispanics eat tacos.

[CookiesAndCream2]

@doopayo - and aren't you the one who was trying to say you're African Hispanic? You're Haitian. That's French African. So you're even racist against your own culture, ancestry, etc. how stupid.

[doopayo]

I never meant to hurt your feelings I’m just saying this from what I’ve seen online and in person, a lot of white people being very disrespectful to a specific culture. Even going as far to be purposely disrespectful just to get famous on it, for example this one white woman made a joke about Asians eating dogs and got backlash for it but she continued to make a whole song to try and profit off her racism and ignorance.

Some don’t take it as far but I see most white peoples thinking some people aren’t civilized or gross because of something that’s culturally significant. This isn’t limited to white people, just something a lot of white Americans do and I hypothesized it’s because of historically how pseudoscience and etc would normalize that kind of behavior

[doopayo]

And also that the norm is mostly white. You see a lot of minorities getting shamed for having “gross smelling food” and etc, it’s because of a white supremacist narrative believing poc culture is somehow less civilized

[doopayo]

And yes, I’m Haitian and Cuban. Both of which are recognized are Afro Latino/Afro Caribbean countries

[CookiesAndCream2]

@doopayo - thank you again for proving you're a racist not just against whites but other Haitians seeing as that's an African French culture not a African Hispanic culture.

[CookiesAndCream2]

@doopayo > And also that the norm is mostly white. < and no it's not. Try to stop living under your mother's basement stairs and go meet people. You'd be surprised if you stopped with your ignorant & bigoted beliefs, as any racist, and learnt a thing or two about reality.

[RolandCuthbert]

@CookiesAndCream2 So is disliking"White" American Culture racist? That's what the take is about. I don't expect for everyone to like African-American Culture or even to understand it. The fact that it is viciously stereotyped isn't the issue. We are stereotyped by other groups of non-"White" folks. The issue is nonsensical paradigm of race.

But no, I can safely dislike "White" American culture without claiming that Italians or Italian-Americans are members of the same sets of beliefs. You can talk to Irish Americans who will telly you for a fact that Irish and "Blacks" mixed a lot in the early days of this nation.

[CookiesAndCream2]

@RolandCuthbert - is dislike "white" culture racist? Course it is. Isn't it racist to not like African-American culture?

If it isn't why do African-Americans go on about racism when people don't like them for enacting their culture? Well of course they have to have some culture... many African-Americans don't have an actual culture per se - except American culture which is ironically white culture by majority - unless their parents or grandparents immigrated from African or a country like Haiti.

And thank you for proving you're racist too. Like said Italians are certainly not Russian, not more than someone from Haiti is Nigerian. That's how stupid your argument is. The Italian would laugh. The Russian would laugh. The Haitian would laugh. And the Nigerian would laugh.

But then it helps when you've an actual culture and know what culture is about. To take your example of Somalis you're erroneous. They don't use hands as in plural. It's the right hand. You're considered a filthy slob, unclean, if you use left hand (my cousin's father is from Kismayo).

[RolandCuthbert]

@CookiesAndCream2

Of course it isn't. The whole idea absurd. That makes the dislike of any culture racist.

I can't speak to or for African-Americans who think it is racist to dislike African-American Culture. I posted this take. No African-American here has approached me with such silliness.

And if you run into folks who feel that way, I would hope you possess enough education and knowledge to point out why they are wrong.

Now you are off on a tangent. Why would you make this claim about American culture when using terms like "White" Americans and African Americans. You don't seem to know what cultural identity is. If we were members of the same cultural group, we wouldn't refer to each other as being members of different groups.

Why make an argument over something so basic?

Why should I care what you consider racist? You are just the same nonsensical racist freak who occupy this forum. You can talk negatively about "Black" folks in this weird nonsenical paradigm of race. But it is racist to do away with race completely and learn about another person's culture, do decide if you like/dislike it?

Get out of town.

Oh, they only eat with their right hands? Wow. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1InU-6ILFk

I will repeat again, I don't have to like your culture. I may have to tolerate it. But I don't have to like it. And that ain't racist. That is the way the world works.

[JackSmy]

@RolandCuthbert I have read many of your posts, and we have casually sent comments back and forth.
I have NOTHING against you, in any way, but I don't KNOW HOW TO GET TO KNOW YOU?
I am white, raised in a very white suburb, but I went to college, in California, and met all kinds of people from all around the world!
I'm NOT RACIST, just CLUELESS!! I want to know about these, and their culture, and food, and everything, but I, personally, feel some HUGE STIGMA, "White guy trying to make friends with 'those people'" like I am NOT sincere, and honestly interested, and wanting to know!!
I can't even imagine what you deal with, daily, and right now, writing this, do I call you a 'black man' or just 'my friend' because color shouldn't matter!

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, we all have our bags. When I mingled with African immigrants, I used to carry around the baggage of African-Americans who routinely mock African immigrants. In certain neighborhoods, African-Americans mock the accents, the cultures, traditions, and yes. . . skin color of Africans who are newly arrived. So perhaps this isn't just about what we think racial issues are. Perhaps when it comes to culture. . . there are cutlural issues we keep forgetting to talk about and discuss openly.

Also, maybe it is time to put those bags down. Not every experience will be pleasant. Africans have mocked me for being "ghetto", not having good "values" or not being "educated" enough. Sure, all of it comes from stereotypes, they absorbed about African-Americans.

But again, maybe in order to get to these other experiences, we have to take risks. You are talking to a man who has traveled in circles where I was the only "Black" guy for hundreds of miles around. But I went in with my eyes open and to this day I have no regrets. I will take the experiences I had in Moscow, Russia to my grave.

[JackSmy]

@RolandCuthbert Well-said, and just makes me want to know more, and maybe learn from your perspective, as this "race" issue, ALL RACES, seems to be at the BOIL-OVER point!!
So many past WRONGS, and Stereotypes, that need to be forgotten, as we move forward, in a better way?

[RolandCuthbert]

I just think we have to lose the whole race concept and this need for universal standards and concepts. I can’t like all cultures. As worldly as I am. That’s just insane. But I can understand they folks of different cultures like themselves.

[JackSmy]

@RolandCuthbert Yeah, totally, knowing, maybe some idea of all of these "cultures" but the ones, close to home, are most important, because those are the people you interact with!
I just don't know enough, about so many of the people our company hires, and I don't know how to talk to them, as they speak nearly no English!
Yet, some perceive that lack of interacting, because not knowing, and inability to communicate, as "Racist"!

[RolandCuthbert]

I dunno Jack. I don't speak any language but English. I just know phrases, simple ones like "hello", "goodbye", "i don't speak russian, Spanish, french". . .

But why would you assume I would have an easier time getting to know non-"White" immigrants than you? Why would a Somali immigrant be more trusting of me? Or a Mexican immigrant for that matter?

I have literally been chased by Mexican immigrants back in the day. And dude, I have no idea why they were mad at me. But I peeled out and ran back to my apartment.

[JackSmy]

@RolandCuthbert NO, NO!! You misunderstood!! I was referring to what you were saying about African Culture, and your heritage, not that you should be better with Latinos, or Asians!!
I was saying, and I thought maybe, that some, like Ethiopean, or maybe Somalis, would be more inclined, and recognize you as someone, but now, as I write this, I think I am a fool, assuming so many things!!
DUDE!! I DON'T Know, but NEVER meant ANY OFFENSE!!
Ending Racism comes down to education, and cultural understanding, and nobody really does that!

[RolandCuthbert]

No harm no foul. I am just giving illustrations. I can see a female Somali immigrant possibly being more attracted to me than to you in most situations because;

She grew up in a culture where everyone was darker skinned. Child psychologists talk about how girls first big crush is always their father. She is surrounded by men/boys who are all darker-skinned and she develops an attraction. Besides, she is in the culture that prides certain phenotypical traits.

That is purely physical. It is not cultural. It says nothing about similar traditions or worldviews.

If she got to know me and I took her home, then put on the "Brothers Johnson". . . she might think it is the worst music she ever heard. Or if I treated her to some greens and smoked turkey, she might find it horrible. Or if I tried to dance with her, she would wonder what am I doing.

Traditions, cuisine, rituals, holidays, history, etc. are all cultural.

Strawberry Letter 23 comes right out of African-American Culture. That doesn't mean every dark skinned person thinks this is good music. Or that every lighter skinned person thinks it is horrible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-ipH9Ws-zs

[JackSmy]

@RolandCuthbert I agree, totally! Even if I was attracted to her, I wouldn't approach her, because I don't know much of anything about her culture, and would be afraid to offend!

[RolandCuthbert]

Hey, you have to make these decisions for yourself. You must be comfortable with what you decide. I just think your assumptions are all wrong.

But do you. And good luck.

[ChefPapiChulo]

being racist means hating a race for the color of their skin. its not hard to confuse it. Not enjoying a different culture is borderline bigot depending on the reasons. Like disliking a culture that practices cannibalism is warranted. Or disliking a culture that eats dogs or cats is also warranted. But disliking a culture because they practice a different religion or something like that is bigoted.

disliking ghetto culture isn't racist because every race has a ghetto culture. but disliking black ghetto culture while praising mafia ghetto culture could be considered racist.

its not hard to understand.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't have an issue with the term bigot. I am bigoted about certain cultures. That's cool. The issue is you still have some supposedly universal value statements about eating cats and dogs. Who made the universal rule about what you can or cannot eat? Which animals are okay to slaughter for food and which ones are not?

[ChefPapiChulo]

That’s a different argument. You could make the same about cannibalism or anything really. But those are the things western society finds very taboo.

I’ve also seen some a video of some dog being boiled alive for food and everyone in the video was speaking mandarin and laughing. I found it to be disturbing and I dislike that part of Chinese culture. But I’m not racist against Chinese, and I actually enjoy a lot of things about their culture.

So to summarize, it can be *considered* racist when you create a double standard about certain issues. But disliking certain things about different cultures does not make you racist.

[RolandCuthbert]

This is central to my argument. I never said anything about breaking a nation's laws. We have laws about which animals are permissible to eat. We have slaughterhouses in the United States. I am quite certain many people are laughing while covered in blood and animals are screaming.

But this is not about you disliking a culture or a cultural practice.

This is about stating some universal moral/cultural standard. I dislike the practice of eating dogs/cats too. But why would I make the claim that this should be some universal standard?

Again, I state pretty clearly, you can dislike a culture for whatever you wish. A culture mind you. At GaG we have hundreds of folks who think race/culture mean the same thing. Even as they claim race is genetic.

[ChefPapiChulo]

well those people are idiots and im sure there's many of them. And you can dislike anything for any reason but thats anti intellectualism. There has to be a valid reason for disliking a culture otherwise you can be defined as a bigot.

[goaded]

I've never been in a restaurant where everybody ate with their hands, the closest I've been was a curry place in Bradford, where there was no cuttlery, but chapattis. That wouldn't be a deal breaker, for me, but I don't like the idea of having a snake killed in my presence for me to eat, or eating dog.

Of course, you don't have to judge a culture by just one aspect.

(I'd love to see how many people have blocked me, I think I'd give you a run for your money!)

[doopayo]

Dude wtf culture do you see that’s been eating dogs

[goaded]

@doopayo "approximately 780,000 to 1 million dogs are consumed per year in South Korea" en.wikipedia.org/.../Dog_meat_consumption_in_South_Korea

But they wear masks when they're ill, so swings and roundabouts.

[doopayo]

First of all, eating dog meat isn’t cultural food.

Second, in that article it literally states “According to some sources, consumption of dog meat is becoming less common in modern-day South Korea, especially among younger people, and the practice is declining”

“As a general practice, dog meat has never been a mainstream part of the Korean diet throughout the nation's history.”

It’s hella offensive towards Asians to just be saying that bs. They don’t eat dogs, my moms been to Asia before. Ain’t nobody there is serving up fresh dog

[goaded]

@doopayo Sorry, but that's like saying your mother's been to Europe and ain't nobody there is serving up haggis, or faggots, or borscht, or snails, or frog's legs, or any other of a hundred different regional specialities.

What, exactly, is a cultural food, anyway?

[doopayo]

It means food that is significant to a culture. Dog meat is not significant to Korean culture and it’s dumb to claim it is especially when Asians are made fun of for racist stereotypes and assumptions like that

[goaded]

@doopayo I see what you mean, but I'd say it's part of their culture to accept eating dog, which many other cultures frown upon. Not unlike the Japanese eating whale, or Europeans eating pork (not popular in Muslim countries or, presumably, Israel), beef (Hindu), and cheese (Asia - rotten milk? Disgusting!). I'm not judging anyone's culture based on just one aspect, but it's one of the ways our cultures differ. Racists will say hateful things without caring if they're true or not.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don’t know why is it important to discuss eating dogs in Korean culture. Even if it was the most popular thing going, why is that a problem? There are some folks who even eat dolphins.

And again, Goaded didn’t talk about all Asians. He only mentioned Koreans, even if he was wrong he would be wrong about the cuisine of a specific cultural group.

[zagor]

So you've never been to a restaurant that served hamburgers and french fries? I don't recall seeing a lot of utensils at In'N'Out.

[goaded]

@zagor If you mean a "restaurant" like McDonalds, very, very rarely, but fair point. The good burgers I've eaten are usually too big to reasonable eat with your hands.

There's pizza, as well, but that's kind of like a sandwich; the bread is the utensil. (Kebabs, too.)

[PurpleDrank69]

A wall of text that was actually worth reading.
Multiracialism should be about preserving the different unique cultures on earth instead of lumping them together, which is what happened to America, which is literally muttland.

[RolandCuthbert]

The term "mutt" is weird. Because it seems to indicate a belief in purity.

There is no such thing.

There is no cultural purity. There is no racial purity.

My point with the take isn't to make the claim that cultures are pure or that everyone should honor every culture. Which makes your statement about America kind of surprising. The only thing that makes America different is the concept of race.

But in terms of multiculturalism, how is it any different that Russia, China, or Nigeria?

Nigeria has over 250 ethnic groups, the most populous and politically influential being Hausa-Fulani 29%, Yoruba 21%, Igbo (Ibo) 18%, Ijaw 10%, Kanuri 4%, Ibibio 3.5%, Tiv 2.5%. It also has over 500 languages, with English being the official language.

Although ethnic Russians comprise more than four-fifths of the country's total population, Russia is a diverse, multiethnic society. More than 120 ethnic groups, many with their own national territories, speaking some 100 languages live within Russia's borders.

[anylolone]

I honestly get your point, to some degree.

But you are comparing violent crime and eating with one's hands...

Universality is easier than you think, it's quite instinctive to most people.

There's a very good reason why the afghans want to refugee in the US and Europe, not saudi arabia, turkey, etc... It's not the color of anyone's skin or if they use utensils when eating granular meals.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't think you read the take. There is no such thing as violent crime culture. Because the culture would end ten days after it was created.

If you are going to talk about culture, you are going to use the labels that people use to describe themselves.

Racism works the opposite way. It creates labels and throws those folks into nonsensical boxes. That's why you have an obsession with violent crime. Some cultures may have more internal violence than others. Other cultures may express more violence to folks who are outgroup than ingroup. If that is true, which culture is better. . . and from which perspective are you judging them?

I would advise getting some books on cultural anthropology. Because the philosophy of race is nonsense.

"For if one were to offer men to choose out of all the customs in the world such as seemed to them the best, they would examine the whole number, and end by preferring their own; so convinced are they that their own usages far surpass those of all others’.

Herodotus, The Histories, 420 BC

It is such a weird deal. If the Afghans agreed with you that their culture was violent, what would you prefer, that they abolish the entire concept of being Afghan. . . or have you list out what metrics they had to meet to get your approval?

When does nonsense, start to sound like nonsense?

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, let me take a step back. Let's be objective about this. So you talked about a culture being violent. By that I mean you to take a culture to be violent in the way it expresses itself both internally and externally. So let's take the Taliban. If the Taliban were nearly as violent towards each other as they were towards folks they consider not to be Taliban, then they would not exist.

It is just that simple.

So back to this thing of evaluating cultures. I would not want to be a Taliban. . . even if we could call it a culture. But how is it logical that a member of the Taliban would not want to be a member of the Taliban? In terms of your ranking of cultures, if my culture is superior, why can't it survive in the rugged terrain of Afghanistan? How were the Taliban able to defeat the British, the Russians, and the Americans?

And even if we could agree on a suitable ranking system, why should this criteria matter to those who are not members of your culture or mine?

You say from your perspective, the less violence the better without considering what you define to be violent. Obviously someone visiting physical harm upon you and yours is defined by you to be violent. But I am thinking when it comes to folks you consider not to be apart of your culture you redefine what it means to be violent.

You talk about what I would consider to be violent without knowing who I am. I am quite certain you would probably call myself neighborhood violent. I do not. And again, I can go to plenty of "nice" neighborhoods and experience violence/threats, even as the members of that community claim it is the safest place on earth. I am uncertain how you arrived at these conclusions.

I think you need to think carefully about what you are saying. If there is a metric by which you could rank all cultures, why would you be mad if Afghans did everything they could to immigrate to Europe? It would only confirm your hypothesis, correct?

[RolandCuthbert]

Too much to unpack here. I am going to address to foundational points to get us back on track.

Would you call Neo-Nazis a culture? Would you call the KKK a culture? Are these social groupings? Are they matrix for setting group behavior? Perhaps they are organizations, militant groups, etc. But they are not cultures.

German culture, French Culture, "White" American Culture, African-American Culture, those are real cultures. Not political groups, religious fanatics, etc. That's why I said, the Taliban, "if I could even call it a culture". Because going down that path, any two freaks you could string together become a culture. And culture goes much deeper than that.

You are saying that there is an objective analysis where everyone would have to agree that a certain culture is "violent". That's the issue. I am not saying you or I could not reach a conclusion that we didn't like X culture for X reasons. That's actual title of the take.

You introduced neo-nazis. I am not sure how any one would say violence is mostly ingroup. Where does that analysis come from? Purity spirals? It would seem to me, folks would simply leave the organization. That's why that isn't a culture. You don't leave cultures. Malala fled Afghanistan because of the attempt on her life. But she is still Pashtun. That's how culture works. Being Pashtun isn't being apart of some extremist group. It isn't an organization. It isn't a political action committee. It is an ethnic grouping, with history, associated traditions, holidays, rituals, and culture.

So your whole analysis of cultural groupings is off. Culture is a basic unit of human group identity.

[RolandCuthbert]

You are taking this discussion down the path of semantics. Let’s at least state something objective. That when you talk about culture you know that being a member of the Taliban is different than being a member of a Pashtun tribe. One can be an ex Taliban member. But a Pashtun tribal member is Pashtun for life.

One does not have to choose between being Pashtun and Taliban. I am quite certain almost every member of the Taliban is also a member of a Pashtun tribe.

So call it what you will. You know that being a nazi, a member of the kkk, is not like being a member of a culture in the same way a person is German.

I don’t think you can evaluate my views on culture until you understand what culture is. Right now you define any two people coming together as a culture.

My definition has to do with human group identity. Members of cultural groups have a strong sense of their group identity. A culture functions as a person’s primary designation, correct? It functions as how they see themselves within a given society. It is what they believe their group history to be, their origins, etc.

As for moral neutrality, what does that even mean? It seems connected to your definition of culture. You think that cultures have positive or negative moral values because of how you define culture. German Culture may have had an issue with fascism via the Nazi movement. But that does not make German Culture less moral than British Culture.

[RolandCuthbert]

So to get around this barrier, you seek to define a Nazi culture, even as you know there are thousands upon thousands of ex-nazis.

Culture does not function that way. Again, it is a group identity that tells you how a person sees themselves. How can Nazism be a culture when people think they can simply leave the organization? People do not think they can leave being “German”. They are born German and they die German.

No one is born a Nazi.

As for Malala, I used the illustration to show that she is Pushtan. Just as the Taliban are. They are members of Afghan tribal groupings. She is not a member of the Taliban. Perhaps Afghan Pushtan culture has an issue with religious extremism. But you went to go on to designate a particular organization as a culture. And the same thing applies. No one is born a member of the Taliban. They join the organization.

As for the stuff about gender. Well, if you think gender specific cultures exist, we probably should stop talking.

[anylolone]

People can leave cultures, brain plasticity is a core human feature, much more social plasticity.

Just because eminem can't seem to ever be able to leave innercity culture, doesn't mean that sowell couldn't, so much he did. Not only that, but sowell achieved a freedom from being part of a culture completely to an utter and complete devotion to instrumentality.

Meaning, a pashtun isn't a pashtun for life if one chose not to be.
So much that she's not a pashtun as pashtun would recognize her as.
Let's say she, and a lot of hers, are a branching off, which is the norm for cultures.
(which is how we have a myriad of different pashtun groups that don't all recognize each other as ingroup)

And she's afghan, part of afghan culture. Well, was, at least.

Gosh, you can even leave your family.

Which is honestly one of the most beautiful things about humans.

(you weren't born a nazi) if your parents were nazi, you were born a nazi, you didn't have a choice to opt out. Gosh, if you were young when the nazis were in power, you were a nazi whether you liked it or not.

[RolandCuthbert]

Again, you make up these groupings to justify your conclusions. So you just keep naming one pretend group after another. Sidewalk culture, upside down culture, Sesame street culture, GaG culture.

So your definitions work backwards. Instead of observing how human beings culturally identify, then taking that group identity to analyze behavior on that basis. You take behaviors, musical styles, art forms and claim that is what makes for a culture.

It is like saying Japanese and Chinese have the same culture, because both have developed forms of self-defense.

So I can’t explain just how wrong these types of definitions are. But I think it is clear, this isn’t about culture. Of course, you would throw in Thomas Sowell, which has nothing to do with this conversation.

I would rather you just simply state your point, rather than pretending to want to talk about culture.

As for Malala, again, why are we worried about issues between different groups of Pashtuns? She is accepted as being a member of her tribe. . . by her tribe.

At this point, I don’t even think you have a good grip on your point. Because you are using this conversation to argue your politics. Not to actually understand or to covey an understanding of what culture is.


For you culture is simply a method by which you can justify the supremacy of a certain politics, worldview, or race.

I reject that definition. Culture has nothing to do with your obsession for people to adopt your politics.

[RolandCuthbert]

But the definition seems to be definitely arbitrary, allowing you to label anything a cultural grouping should the need arise in a discussion.

It doesn’t seem to care how people see themselves, right? A person can say. . .”hey, I am Latin”. . . and you will re-label that person “Urban” based upon some arbitrary distinction. But for a specific purpose.

What humans say isn’t always accurate, because humans being are not perfect. But you are not going to label someone a member of a culture, when they insist that is not their designation. Culture is not genetic. There is no objective standard for grouping ethnicities, clans, cultures. . . that is a subjective process. And that process works at both the individual and group level. You must have both.

I can test your DNA and find out all the ethnic groupings from which you received ancestry. We had a person here who just found out they have 22% sub-Saharan DNA. That will never change the way she was raised. The culture she was raised in or the group identity she grew up with.

So your suggestion about Malala seems to indicate you know that she was not raised as a member of a Pashtun tribe. Or that her father does not consider his daughter a member of the same tribe he is a member of. . . or the same one of his father and grandfather. It would seem to indicate you know the friends she grew up with or the family who help raised her or the village she grew up in rejects her.

After reading her book and watching her documentary, I would surmise you are wrong. In both, she describes her ethnicity and her religion both validated by the people in her life.

And you make the conversation so unnecessarily granular. By mistaking disputes between tribes or between different interpretations of Islam for rejection of cultural membership.

[RolandCuthbert]

You are making different arguments now. It is like you have wrapped yourself into a cocoon. What does your obsession with a moral society have anything to do with my thread?

How does this relate to culture? And the subjective process of human cultural identity? What is your point?

And why be disingenuous? Why not just state your obvious point openly and honestly?

Because you are not interested in talk about culture.

And no. . . your mentioning eminen and sowell had no effect at all. The only thing that could be effective is being honest about what you mean.

In the deficit of honesty, people can only guess at what you mean.

[RolandCuthbert]

Actually it doesn’t. I don’t have to make any objective moral value judgement to dislike a culture. But you were so obsessed with making your point about your political worldview, you missed that.

I can dislike Somali culture simply because the folks eat with their hands. And no one should be angry or mad at me because of that. Not even the Somalis.

Your point seems to be that there is a moral system under which a person can objectively assess and claim Somali culture should stop the practice of eating with their hands. Because your objective system has certified this is a bad cultural practice.

And you “proved” this by claiming murder culture exists and that everyone should agree murder culture is bad.

So in response;

1. Murder culture isn’t culture.
2. Your response has nothing to do with my point of a person disliking a culture over a specific practice or tradition.

Really you are not being disingenuous? You are not arguing politics? You are not arguing about the morality of a culture just like that has anything to do with a person disliking Mexican-American Culture because of Marachi music? I mean how far down does this rabbit hole go?

So you step to me, pretending you wanted to talk about culture. When you don’t. You just want to talk about your superior politics. Why didn’t you just create your own take? I would have stopped by and commented.

Why hijack my thread? I mean, this is all worthless.

[RolandCuthbert]

Should I just play the disingenuous game with you? Find the post where I compare murdering someone with eating with your hands.

That is your equivalence. I said there is no such thing as murder culture. Which has nothing to do with this take. You have diverted to this tangent for political purposes.

As for cultural norms, again, the people who from my meetup group did not think this was a "cultural norm". They were appalled but because of the obsession with this universal moral code of conduct, they were afraid to just say, they found it distasteful. They were afraid of being called racist, because they didn't understand that finding a practice or custom distasteful, ain't racist. It is simply finding a custom or practice distasteful.

It is an actual attempt to understand an actual culture or custom/practice of a culture. Which is the exact opposite of racism.

But you didn't write me to talk about that. You didn't write me to talk about culture at all. Because you have no idea about how culture is defined or what it means to the people who claim any defined group identity.

If you ever get to a point where you can actually understand what a culture is, I would be happy to discuss possible moral pitfalls. But until you get into the library and do some research, you will be talking about cabbage patch culture, murder culture, park culture, boating culture, or worse.

Actually almost every culture is not political especially when evaluated from the viewpoint of the American mainstream. I think sociologists might agree your culture is probably more evolving into including politics into its definitions. The problem is that is going to put your social group on a path to a crossroads. And then it will be very interesting to see how things get decided.

So after posting the same thing seven times, to you, I think I will just leave you to your task.

[RolandCuthbert]

So that is no longer being disingenuous. That's outright lying. You are just making up stuff and arguing against it.

So I am not sure how to respond to the first part of the post. You are so busy arguing your politics, you seem unable or unwilling to comprehend the point made in take and you have refused to create your own.

Since most of what you have here is inaccurate and you are refused to respond to my point over several days. I will pose a separate question.

If cultures are concerned with social norms and customs, why am I supposed to listen to you when it comes to defining another person's cultural identity?

I mean. . . that is basically. . . insane.

[RolandCuthbert]

Of course, it is a lie.

You just stated that I attached a moral judgement to Somalis eating with their hands.

That is a blatant lie.

So you are a liar and a troll. I point blank question about cultural definitions and you pretend like you didn't read it. Because you are using this take to argue your politics. I have a mind to just erase all of this, since you were disingenuous from the start.

[RolandCuthbert]

So you are basically a batshit insane troll. So I am erasing all this nonsense.

You could have created your own batshit ranting insane take. I would have stopped in.

[Brainsbeforebeauty]

Nicely done!
I agree not liking certain cultures habits or food isn't racist.

[Stormworn]

You Americans gone completely crazy with this 'cultural' and 'racial' shit. Remember, Germany was similar, only in reverse, back in the 1930's...

[RolandCuthbert]

Americans do not have good memories. And when it comes to that whole thing of loving democracy and the constitution, we lied.

[iseekpinetrees]

I like what u had to say. Dont get why someone would be grossed out by people eating with their hands. How else do people eat chicken wings? Lol

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, it was an illustration. But yeah, we had one guy nearly turn green. Because you know Somalis have fish, chicken, and lamb dishes. But in addition, there is rice, vegetables, etc.

He couldn't take it.

[karaspara]

Very true mate you smashed that in my opinion

[Diya010]

I don't like it