What should be punishment for women who lie about rape?

[Twenty2]

https://youtu.be/0xyb4TAmSaM

[Sparkling_Star]

Generally police figures out 90% false accusations at the trial stage so it doesn't reach court, so in that case the woman is charged with 3-4year punishment with some penalty. but if the women achieved to put the men behind the bar then she should go through life long imprisonment and penalty because these type of people harmful for both male and female.

[David_Kek]

Where is you get that 90% number from?
Because here in the UK i have actually known people who worked in the family courts, with dv and rape accusations thrown around like Pokémon cards, and then completely ignored after being proven false.

To my knowledge it's not even a case of evidence, the justice system just doesn't care unless it's dealing with a woman that no woman would defend.
For example Jemma Beale falsely accused about 15 men in 3 years, one of them spending 7 years in jail, and she even got £11,000 by the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, and she even told a former girlfriend she had lied to get the money. For that she got 10 years.
Sophie Skinner she accused a random guy she just picked up with all of it on CCTV, for no reason at all other than maybe to get attention, still demanding it to be true even when shown the footage. She got half of an 18 month sentence. If it wasn't for that CCTV footage he could have got 5 to 10 years for that.
Those are the only two cases i can think of that where publicly prosecuted.

[David_Kek]

I can think of one case of a guy who was seeing an escort who accused him to all her family and friends to hide the fact she was a prostitute, which naturally harmed his reputation, and he found CCTV footage of them both in a sex shop buying toys and being flirt, at the very time she alleged he raped her. He went to the police, and they weren't interested in even having a conversation with her, let alone prosecuting her. He paid £200,000 out of his own pocket to get a private prosecution, and she killed herself 3 days before the trial, and the CPS actually used that as justification for why she shouldn't have been taken seriously.
And my personal favorite, the case of Jay Cheshire, a young man in school who was accused by a girl at school to the police, and after a few weeks she dropped the charges, admitting to her friends she made it up (years later she claimed to his sister that she was "pressured" to do it), and a few months later he killed, and was then joined by his mother one year after that. And the police to this day have had exactly zero interest in reopening that case, despite the fact it cost two people their lives.

So please, i really must know, where di your get your 90% number from? Because i can tell you for a fact that is simply not true.

[David_Kek]

*killed himself

[Sparkling_Star]

@David_Kek i am talking about how things work in my country , so here people are not that educated and don't have any evidence of the crime even refuse to give medical test. when police starts questioning about the event they themselves give contradictory statements so it is easy for police to find out what is truth. Generally police refuse to take complaint in our country because then they have to answer why their area have so much crime so police generally try to solve it orally only. even our supreme court is in the process of making hard laws for this type of false accusations.

thelogicalindian.com/news/mp-woman-3-years-rape/

[David_Kek]

fair enough.
But where did you get "police figures out 90% false accusations at the trial stage so it doesn't reach court"?

[Sparkling_Star]

@David_Kek In 2014, the Delhi Commission of Women put out a report stating that 53.2% of rape cases filed between April 2013-July 2014 were false. Upon further investigation of the statistic put out by the Delhi Commission of Women, it was found that all of the cases that were dismissed as “false”, were cases that simply never made it to trial, without analysing the reasons why. i read about the 90% in some newspaper so i don't have proof about it but it is close to my claim. but this is related to only my country so it may be different in your country.

feminisminindia.com/.../

[David_Kek]

Ok, well that is completely different to your claim. About 50% of accusations being ignored through lack of evidence, is really not quite the same as 90% of false accusations being discovered.

The reason why I said I can tell you for a fact that simply isn't true, on the bases it is an impossible number to know. About 85% of rape accusations made to the police that mamake it to court result in an inconclusive verdict through lack of conclusive evidence, and could potentially be true or false.
There is simply no way to know what percentage of that 85% are telling the truth or lying.
That is why that 90% number is impossible to know, because if we did know about that "10%", then it wouldn't be 90%, I'd be 100%.

[Sparkling_Star]

@David_Kek i am talking about the proven false claims because we can't punish either party if we don't have proper evidence. so if there 100 rape cases then ~53 cases are proved false and 90% of these false cases i. e ~48 never goes to court and solved in police station only and in ~5 cases the men have to go court to prove his innocence. you are talking about the cases which reach court and i am talking about the overall false accusations cases.

[David_Kek]

You just said that 53% was not proven false, they were simply just dismissed through lack of evidence. That doesn't prove anything, other than those 53% come under the category of "inconclusive", neither proved true or false.

I am talking about overall cases. Where did you get your "police figures out 90% false accusations at the trial stage" from? Because from what i know, that seems like a number just pulled out of thin air.

[Twenty2]

You're really into this @David_Kek

[David_Kek]

Twenty2
I was an MRA for 7 years; i learnt how all this works in the real world years ago.

[Twenty2]

@Sparkling_Star He knows this stuff. And @David_Kek thank you for being an MRA.

[David_Kek]

I said i was, not am. I walked away from the MRM 2 years ago.

[Twenty2]

Thanks for your past efforts^_^

[Sparkling_Star]

@David_Kek look there are different committee who publish different reports and i read that "90%" in a news paper article published a few years ago so i don't have online copy of it and this report somehow "close" to it. there is no official report from govt about it so different committee put different data so i can't tell you about their viability. so first a committee published it saying there are 53.2% "false" rape accusations (it doesn't said inconclusive) then all men started accusing women for false allegations so another committee study it and reported that the large portion of said false accusations never reached the court so it doesn't impact lager amount of man badly and there are actually huge amount of rape cases that are not reported due to societal pressure. So rape is actually is a big concern not just a lie said by ladies. A man can lodge defamation case against women and can put her behind the bar so they are not helpless and i give you a article about it how the accuser sentenced 3 year jail. you are a MRA so i think you know better about this , i just said what i come to know from different sources.

[David_Kek]

In other words, it was just a number pulled out of thin out by a bunch of people just guessing. If there are no official government crime reports, then said number doesn't mean anything.
And again, unless said police officers have Wonder Woman's lasso and truth, then knowing that number is an impossibility. Without a confession or conclusive evidence from the outset, it's not impossible for police officers to judge whether an accusation is true or not, otherwise we wouldn't need courts. And even if they did have they did have a confession or conclusive evidence from the outset with 90% of false accusers, that wouldn't be the case for that 10%. If they did, then that 10% would either not be false accusers and hence the rate would be 100%, or they would be false accusers, in which case it would be 100%.
That big pool of inconclusive could be either, hence statements like "X percentage of rapists/false rape accusers go free", because if there wasn't enough evidence to convict them, then there's not enough evidence to say they committed said crime.
People are innocent until they are proved guilty; that is how presumption of innocence beyond a reasonable doubt works.
That is a statistic that no ones knows, and never will.

[David_Kek]

I don't really care what word they used; unless and accusation is proven one way or the other, then it is inconclusive. In the link you sent me explaining that 53% number it said;
"all of the cases that were dismissed as “false”, were cases that simply never made it to trial, without analysing the reasons why."
So there's two reasonable explanations to explains that;
1. These are accusations without evidence that the police aren't wasting their limited resources on knowing nothing will come of them, and said National Commission on Women are just spinning reality.
or
2. Then this is the case that in your country about 50% of rape accusations are found to be false with said testimony slipping up under questioning and/or confessing, and not a single one of them are being prosecuted. Unless your justice system works completely differently; you can't really prosecute someone and send them to jail without sending them to court.

[David_Kek]

You said "never reached the court so it doesn't impact lager amount of man badly", when that is not true. False rape accusations to friends and family, has resulted in men being murdered. That's not even including the effect it has on your reputation.
You say "man can lodge defamation case", but that is not a public prosecution that is the police's responsibility, that is a private prosecution that comes out of their own pocket, and also makes them liable to counter suit if they can't provided conclusive evidence.
To intentionally falsely accuse someone of a crime, should be a crime of itself of equal sentencing, for the police to handle.
If the justice system in India are letting these women go after it's proved they lied, then that justice system is letting their victims down.

The rate of rape that isn't reported (that again, no one knows what that number is, and never will), is irrelevant.

[Vesuvius87]

- Jail time worth 5-10 years
- Paying heavy fine for the victim's compensation
- Have that on your permanent record
- Have a hard time finding good jobs

[Xoxocutekitty]

Women who lie about rape should not be punished the same as men who have committed rape because doing so would be more likely to invalidate the cases that are actually true. In the US one has to "prosecute" that is come up with clear cut evidence, have legal support, and to be frank quite a lot of financial resources to even start the process. As a society, we should not further exasperate the difference between what "through the eyes of court" considers rape and what actually happened. By creating a higher penalty for those that "lie" than you induce a penalty for people that were actually telling the truth but did not have the proper "biological evidence" or "legal access and support" or "financial resources" to have their cases fully investigated. You can very well get raped, prosecute, and the jury can "decide" to not believe you. sound frustrating?

With this "penalty for false accusation" you introduce an additional layer of assumption that if in law your claim was not proved true, then the same complainant is by default lying and therefore, needs to be punished themselves. While no one wants the rumor of being accused following them or someone falsely accused, we must also take into consideration are we making it more of a "high risk, high reward, high punishment" situation for actual victims.

[Twenty2]

So technically fuck men.

[Xoxocutekitty]

well technically, the legal system is already messed up, and adding additional punishments isn't going to help. Men are also at risk for being sexually assaulted and raped - this would also increase their avoidance about talking about it. Rape is tricky because so many people have this idea of that there has to be battery or physical violence to the entire body. Rape can easily be committed because one person is stronger or not even, one person is drugged. Men can just as easily be drugged, abused, and forced into parenthood or the threat of parenthood. We should not seek to shoot the messenger (yes even if they are objectively wrong) because we need messengers to exist even if they are no good, even if we don't agree with them, even if they say things we don't like or approve of. Such is the responsibility of holding court and making justice accessible to all, even if there are corrupt vindictive individuals who will try to abuse it. There must be better ways than giving someone the exact same sentence. Like community service or parole or increased taxes.

[WadeDanielSmith]

Not guilty is not the same thing is "proven innocent".

If a man is "proven innocent" that means you have positive evidence of his innocence and therefore positive evidence tha tthe woman is lying.

The woman should be punished as badly as the man would have been punished.

IN the Law of Moses in the Bible there is something called the "Four-Fold Penalty".

When a false accuser is caught in a lie, they owe the defendant four times the value of the damage they are falsely accusing them of. If the false accuser is accusing a man of rape or murder the false accuser is put to death.

[WadeDanielSmith]

False accusation of a crime is theft if it is a financial crime, an dit is murder if it is a capital crime.

The Biblical penalty for rape and murder is death and the biblical penalty for false accusation of murder is death, and while I'm at it, the biblical penalty for abortion is death (or anything the Husband of the woman wants up to and including death of the person responsible, even if it is an accident). And if the Husband is at fault the woman can have him put to death, and if the woman is at fault the Husband can have her put to death.

[ThisAndThat]

This is the biggest bunch of horse crap I've ever heard. It's just an excuse to let false accusing women off the hook and you know it. Now ask me why marriage and dating or DOA and why men are going MGTOW again.

[sagevalentineee]

I mean it's really difficult because you end up with a he says-she says situation.

Hopefully, most of the time, the police realise the truth. When my dad broke up with an ex girlfriend in his twenties, she accuse him of raping her. My father, is smart though, he immediately went to the police and explained everything. When she went raging the police did not believe her. Some people are just irrationally vindictive and I cannot believe that there are people out there like this. These sorts of people so gross to me.

I don't know what the law is like - and the situation with prison etc. It it was a stupid spur of the moment thing, maybe not criminal because some people can just go a little nuts. If the woman actually took this case far... I'm thinking to court, she needs a criminal record. Surely lying and deliberately ruining someone's life is worthy of it.

[Twenty2]

Your dad is a smart guy

[DianaWest]

30 years in prison no parole. MINIMUM sentence. should probably be life in prison to stop the women who try to profit off of this from making honest women who actually suffer through such trauma from being stereotyped, and to prevent them from ruining a man's life.

[bolverk]

They should be liable for the same jail time that the male accused would have received Plus extra for wasting police/courts time, Paying heavy fine for the victim's compensation, then after the sentence is served in full, Have that on your permanent record, Have a hard time finding good jobs

[DashboardLight]

The hard part is figuring out if a story is actually a false claim, or a story is a true claim which doesn't have enough evidence to back it up. I do think the punishment for proven lies about rape should be jail time; of approximately 4-5 years, or a hefty fine paid to the victim.

[ThisAndThat]

Well in that case when there's a lack of evidence, the man shouldn't be found guilty either.

[DashboardLight]

@ThisAndThat But that wasn't the question. The question was what the punishment should be for a woman if she lied about it.

[Jackblue]

It depends on a lot of factors. Sometimes women who lie about rape are under pressure from a parent or other circumstance. If a girl's father is going to honor kill her for being "a whore" if she admits to having sex outside marriage (and I am not saying that it is just Muslims who have that issue, it is unfortunately quite common) and she lies and claims to have been raped, than it should be the father who is punished not the woman

[cth96190]

Women who lie should receive the same sentence that the man/men would have received if he had been convicted.
Send a few lying women away for a decade, or two, and watch how quickly the false rape allegations stop.

[aftermydemise]

They should get the same punishment the person they lied about, was going to get. That seems fair.

[Bananaman177]

They should face the same penalty as the man they accused would have faced.

Nothing's as fair as fair.

[LaPrincesita]

There is a punishment for people who lie about a crime what are you talking about...
convicted rapist are always more than likely proven except for mistakes in the system that rarely happen the percentage is pretty small compared to the extremely high percentage chance that it did happen.
Don’t hate me for putting facts out there because I always end up triggering a lot of guys when I bring up real facts and statistics that can be backed up.

[Swimmerdude2013]

Yes they do get punished but not severely. Longest I've seen is a year in prison.

[Twenty2]

Back up your statements with facts then.

[perfectchaos]

Woah, that is a very incorrect paragraph. I don't remember what the actual proven false numbers where but I do remember the actual data analysis which goes like this some small percentage proven false. And slightly larger percentage proven beyond a reasonable doubt and the rest falls into a I have no clue category because there is not enough to prove the case in either direction so jury votes on feeling.

[LaPrincesita]

@swimmerdude2013 rapist don’t get a lot time either, I’m sorry to say but it’s not even.
@twenty2 look everything I just said up and if you find an actual factual link to a trusted site than try and call me out 👍🏼
@perfectchaos
Really? Prove it than.

[LaPrincesita]

Jury votes on feelings? 🤨😶 ummm lmfaoo that’s not even legal.

[perfectchaos]

No it is legal. You are allowed to vote against the law if you think it is unjust to hold someone accountable to the law. You cannot be on jury if you know that. You can also vote jail them even if you don't believe they committed a crime. I found it from BBC in 2018 citing that at least 2-8% rape allegations are false. That does not mean past 8 is always false or that they are all real rapes. We have no clue. I can't find the one anymore where it said the beyond the reasonable doubt which was from FBI. I remember that much.

[coffeewithcream]

Published research has documented false rape and sexual assault rates ranging from 8 percent to 41 percent, according to "False Allegations: Investigative and Forensic Issues in Fraudulent Reports of Crime" by Turvey, Savino and Mares.
The two percent to 8 per cent figure has been discounted. That stat first arose, apparently, in a book by a feminist author in the 1970s and got undue traction from there.

[David_Kek]

Actually if you look at the statistics on rape trials, 10% of them are conclusively true, 5% of them are conclusively false, and the other 85% is thrown out as inconclusive and could be either.

Of the cases in which we do know for a fact what's what, that's 1/3 of rape accusations. Hardly a "pretty small percentage".

[perfectchaos]

Um 15% is not equivalent to 1/3

[David_Kek]

@perfectchaos do the math; if 10% are objectively true, 5% are objectively false, and 85% are unknown, then that means 1/3 of rape accusations that are conclusiveness in a court of law are false.
If the objective rape accusations are 2/3s true, 1/3 false, then there's no good reason why that wouldn't be reflected in the 85% of cases which are inconclusive, anymore than there's no good reason to assume that 85% are all true or all false.

[perfectchaos]

Oh, sorry I thought you were saying out of total cases not conclusive cases. I would not conflate the two parts of those statistics though. It could be false is much higher or lower than thought because we dont know. It's like covid. If I gave you a nursing home statistic and say compare that to the rest of the country your death rate will be insanely off. If I gave you just a college dorm same thing. If I gave you the two you would only have the extremes and it would be dangerous to make an assumption from that.

[David_Kek]

@perfectchaos I agree.
The problem is in society it's now so common for people to conflate that 85% with the true cases, because it's just not deemed acceptable to not "listen and believe" rape accusations, flying in the face of "presumption of innocence". These genuinely are the witch trials of our time.

[coffeewithcream]

@David_Kek Where did you get those stats?

[David_Kek]

@coffeewithcream The Enliven Project; the rape statistics that downplayed false rape accusation more than any other, actually shows within it's own data exactly that. They just used dishonesty in their conclusion in order to fit their narrative.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hCUh6ZIchU

This guy broke down data, minus said bullshit.

[coffeewithcream]

Well put up some stats and back them up. You haven't done that.

[David_Kek]

@coffeewithcream I've literally just cited to the stats i'm speaking of. Do you actually want me to spend the 30 seconds to takes to look that up for you?
Ok;

sarahbeaulieu.me/.../...AccusationOnePager2013.pdf

"Of the 100 rapes brought to trial, 10 are jailed. This is 10%. Or, of the 30 rapes prosecuted, 10 are jailed. This is 33.3%. • When considered 10% of the 100 reported rapes: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st229?pg=11Table A-4 in 1997, Probability of prison for rape is 9%. • When considered 10% of the 100 reported rapes: bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fdluc06.pdf
page 11 in 2006: 62% of felony rape defendants are convicted, 50% of a felony
page 12 in 2006: most severe sentence of convicted offenders
For rape: 80% incarcerated. Combining these, 0.62 * 0.8 = 0.496 (49.6%) • When considered as a portion of prosecuted rapes that are jailed: RAINN (http://www. rainn. org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates) lists for 9 prosecuted rapes, 3 are jailed. This is 33.3%.

Of the 100 rapes reported, 2 are false accusations. The 2% false accusation rate was applied only to the number of reported rapes. Source: www.ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf page 2: “when more methodologically rigorous research has been conducted, estimates for the percentage of false reports begin to converge around 2-8%.” "

[Liam_Hayden]

Lie, as in can be proven that she fabricated it in order to get a guy thrown in prison, destroying his life? 25-to-life.

As in actually being raped but being mistaken as to the identity of the person? Nothing.

[WadeDanielSmith]

They should be punished the same way the man would have been punished if he was actually guilty.

[ThisAndThat]

THIS ^

[ThisAndThat]

They should get the exact same punishment that accused would have gotten if they were found guilty. If he would have gotten 20 years, the sentense he would have gotten should be given to her.

[Drumlin2001]

It should at least be on par with punishments for the crime itself

[Unit1]

Same punishment as when found guilty of sexual assault.

[Curmudgeon]

I would be in favor of "karma Punishment" myself. If you know what I mean and I think you do.

[Twenty2]

I don't think you know how karma works

[Curmudgeon]

Perhaps not. But if she tried to ruin a man's life with a false accusation. let her own life be ruined. A gang of male inmates could "run a train" on her as a good behavior reward.

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

I wonder what they'll be in this case:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/JOzlIGwBH2w

[OceanMelon]

I think the person who was falsely accused of rape is allowed to sue her.

[thisisausername9999]

arrested in a jail cell that is cooled to 37 degrees f and giver her a bed made of concrete.

[OddBeMe]

Filing a false police report. But the more important issue is making it ok for actual victims to come forward.

[ThisAndThat]

If you're going by that old excuse being that if women are punished for false accusations they won't come forward, if that is true, then explain why CPS clearly states right over the line anyone making a false accusation could face prison time and heavy fines.

[OddBeMe]

@ThisAndThat They’d have to prove she lied. But police and college officials often start out not believing women. Or trying to break them like a purse snatcher. Psychology is key.

[ThisAndThat]

You got that right backwards. It's always the men they cast doubt upon, not the women. That's why men are arrested and sit in jail almost 100% of the time and women aren't.

[OddBeMe]

@ThisAndThat You think men are arrested for 100% of all rape claims? More like 10%.

[ThisAndThat]

And if your claims here were true, then explain why this crooked attorney felt a need to hold a lecture to other attorney's so their clients didn't pursue the criminal avenue when making false accusations against men in order to steal men's portion of child custody away from those men. Do explain, here's solid evidence, but I'll be waiting for your answer, either way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-Dtcvqcjc8&t=539s

[OddBeMe]

@ThisAndThat Wow, if this guy says it, then it must be true! Or maybe this is a complex issue where considerations should be given to both sides of an accusation.

[Aiko_E_Lara]

The same punishment for actual rapists.

[Joker_]

Death penalty

[Twenty2]

That's my boy

[Xavzzy]

being eaten out with those claw-ass teeth

[Dinosaursandanime65]

Die die die. EVERYONE DIES

[admles]

Jail time.