Is the Israeli government a Jewish extremist organization?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

I would say yes because I think bulldozing someone's house and building a settlement on it because God/Allah/Elohim/Yahweh promised the land to you is a religious extremist position (way more extreme than the position Hamas takes; as extreme as they may be).

Also, one thing that pisses me off is when people say that Israel is a secular country. Well they may have a secular law code but they still give first class citizenship to a religious group. To give an analogy, lets say Iran adopted a secular law code but gave Shias first class citizenship, Sunnis second class, Christians and Jews third class citizenship and non-monotheists fourth class citizenship, would you call them "secular"?

[tartaarsaus]

Lol Hamas aims to simply commit genocide and rid the entire area of Jews. It doesn’t really get more extreme than that.


And not really, you’re completely not familiar with extreme groups in Judaism if you think the Israeli government is so extreme. Compared to what the ultra-orthodox want, Israel does basically nothing.


For example, it’s been over 25 years since an entire new settlement was built, as that was mostly frozen after Oslo.


And for the record, the argument the Israeli government has for Judea and Samaria (West Bank name used by the government) extends far beyond a deity granting the land. That’s just willfully not really looking a) into why they claim that land and b) the reality of the situation.


There are various reasons why the Israelis desire that area. First of all, history. It’s a big one. Secondly, possibly more important, practicality. Most in the Israeli parliament agree that Israel pre-1967 is super vulnerable as there is virtually no depth of territory. It’s at times a 9 km strip of land that makes it very vulnerable to attack. They do not trust the Palestinians to e. g. keep out Iraqi armies in times of war. And to be fair, Jordan also doesn’t want the Palestinians on the border.


So the Israeli government has a policy of house demolishes ordered by the court (and probably in far smaller numbers than you think) that a) are not in as large of a scale as you think, b) not the formal policy that you think, c) not even remotely to the same scale that more extreme parties want and d) for very different reasons than you think.

[tartaarsaus]

And for the record, acting like the Jewish identity is purely religious is also utterly false. You can be Jewish and fit in perfectly with the Law of Return without a single moment actually believing in Judaism as a religion. It is very common.

[tartaarsaus]

For the truthbringer:

You keep “support” incredibly vague until I actually show the majority of Jews support Israel and then you redefine it to actions, which is incredibly vague as well. Hence, you keep changing the concept what constitutes support.

That said, the overall measure of support anyway is likely to be more accurate, since it encompasses more than what people consider to be “actions” in the survey itself.

As for you redefining it. The problem is that it is based on nonsense to effectively slander the state of Israel and its people by saying they are phonies. The issue there is that they in fact are Jewish, and you cannot redefine what it means to be Jewish just because you don’t like it politically to admit they are Jewish. Of course you’ll then just say they are “evil Zionists”, which simply means that the Israeli government supports the Israeli government existing. What a shocker!

Additionally, the main relevant determinant of who is Jewish are the rabbinates, which do align with me that maternal line is the big determinant of whether someone is Jewish. So you’re in no position to claim someone is not Jewish, which you haphazardly redefine later as well to only imply they are not really Jewish because of their actions, which you undoubtedly are not capable of judging either

[TruthBringer]

The Israeli government are filthy Zionists who have abused the name of Judaism and have resulted in the rise of hatred against Jews. They aren't real Jews. There are many REAL Jews who are in opposition of Israel as a state, the history of it and of course the crimes it commits today.

Only those who are ignorant and naive are easily persuaded to believe today's state of Israel is truly Judaic.

[tartaarsaus]

Okay so which PhD in Judaism do you have to verify that real Jews oppose Israel? And don’t give me that Neturei Karta. They also support suicide bombings against Jews, Holocaust denial and like to associate themselves with the KKK. They are the extreme fringe among fringe.

[tartaarsaus]

By far most Jews do in fact support Israel. It’s always easy to then say “yes but they are not good/real ones”. Ridiculous

[tartaarsaus]

And for the record, any Jew whose mom is a Jew (and who hasn’t activey converted, placed outside the Jewish community etcetera) is a real Jew. It is not even down to religious or political beliefs that determines that.

[TruthBringer]

@tartaarsaus Very simple: Anyone who is against the killing, crimes and illegal occuptation is a real Jew. Any Jew who supports the idea of stealing land that doesn't belong to them and chants "death to Arabs" isn't a real Jew. You don't need a PhD (nice manipulation tactic) in Judaism to learn that Judaism doesn't support the killing. "Most Jews support Israel". Would love to see some sources to back that up.

[tartaarsaus]

@Truth ringer

Okay so you have no real basis to argue on who is a real Jew or a “fake Jew” so you make up your own imaginary concept of real and fake Jews that don’t align with judaism itself.

As for most US Jews who support Israel, that’s 80%. Combined with by a similar value in Israel itself, it’s a vast majority of Jews worldwide who support Israel.

m.jpost.com/.../80-percent-of-us-jews-say-they-are-pro-israel-study-finds-616479

[tartaarsaus]

@TruthBringer

And yes. Who is considered a Jew is defined by Judaism, which does in no shape or form relate to politics. So it’d actually require pretty good knowledge about Judaism to go against the basic standards of who is Jewish to argue all those other Rabbinates and such are wrong

[TruthBringer]

@tartaarsaus "Still, more than half of American Jews are critical of Israeli policy, with 39% saying that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s support for the US President made them feel less connected to Israel."

"Less than a quarter (23%) are “pro-Israel and supportive of the current Israeli government policies.”

Thanks for proving my point. And this is coming from a biased sourced like the Jerusalem post LMFAO.

There is a difference between being pro-Israel in a sense of having your own country for Jews and being Pro-Israel in a way of condoning Israeli actions. Learn the difference.

A real Jew is one who holds on to the teachings in the correct manner. Not one who calls himself a Jew and commits major sins like murder of theft. Same thing as we cannot call ISIS members Muslims.

[TruthBringer]

If we apply your logic, then we can call anyone a Jew by name who thinks he is a Jew, despite being excluded from the religious community. WIth your logic, we can say ISIS members are real Muslims, despite the entire Muslim community hating them. So no, I do not agree with you there on what makes a Jew a real Jew or not. A Jew who thinks killing babies is a good thing is no Jew.

[tartaarsaus]

@TruthBringer

Ugh, no. Most Jews support Israel, that’s simply a fact. But here you go once again unilaterally defining what “support” means despite 80% saying that they support Israel and unilaterally defining who a Jew is, when you have no basis to do so. So in fact I am right that by far most jews support Israel.

And in terms of who a real Jew is. A real Jew is someone who is classified as a Jewish person, which implies they either have a Jewish mother and/or converted.

That’s it. That’s enough to be Jewish. You don’t need to believe in Judaism as a religion or its teachings to be Jewish itself.

Literally Judaism 101

[tartaarsaus]

So yeah, you’re just making up your nonsense definitions about who a real Jew is and then slander the Israeli state with it, despite every micron of that definition of yours being full of shit and opposing Judaism itself

[tartaarsaus]

Also you literally say that many Jews oppose Israel existing as a state, while in fact there are very few, which was my entire point

[TruthBringer]

@tartaarsaus Hahaha I love how you missed the point of me mentioning the support of Israel in a sense of it's ACTIONS rather than it's existence. Which you actually have proved for me. Of course any nationality or (religious) community would love to have their own exclusive state, country or nationality. That was not my point.

There is a difference between a Jew in name/ birth and a Jew in actions. Just because someone's mom is a Jew and he himself sees himself as a Jew, does not mean he is a "real" Jew if that which your actions is what defines you to be a true Jewish believer. Another point you clearly missed. I'm not sure how that equals me opposing Judaism itself. You can take your logical fallacies elsewhere, mate.

[TruthBringer]

@tartaarsaus I and many other people across the globe oppose Israel because of its actions and not because it being Jewish. Your manipulation tactics don't work here, bud. Try again

[tartaarsaus]

@TruthBringer

Yeah no, you were arguing many Jews oppose Israel as a state, i. e. its existence while the source clearly states the majority of Jews support Israel.

And no, you do not get to define who a real Jew is. There is a fairly clear-cut definition of when someone is Jewish and you have zero right to oppose that. It’s just nonsense.

If someone is defined as a Jew by Jewish halacha, they are real Jews. Jews as a group stretches way beyond simply religion and religious teachings anyway. End of story. You are in no position to counter that claim based on your own made up nonsense about who a real Jew is or not.

You’ll just need to accept that the state of Israel and its government are very real Jews with its supporters also being very real Jews. Even the Neturei Karta, who support suicide bombings against other Jews, are very much Jewish.

[tartaarsaus]

For some fucked up reason, you convinced yourself that you are in any position to declare someone a fake Jew while also constantly changing your position on whether majority of Jews support Israel as a state, its existence or its action.

You’ve completely lost the plot. Truly delusional

[tartaarsaus]

But I’m sure you’ll redefine all your comments again by saying there is a difference between Jews in name and actions, while irrespective of whether you believe in Judaism, you’d still be Jewish and therefore a real Jew.

And therefore, your initial comment is utter nonsense

[TruthBringer]

@tartaarsaus Many do oppose Israel because of its actions mostly. The link you sent has literally proved my point on that. There are also Jews who oppose Israel being a state for religious purposes, which is their business of course.
Hey you do you, if you think someone is a Jew, despite contradicting the teachings, then by all means think they are. I simply choose to separate the bad apples from the good.
The state of Israel is Zionist more it is being Jewish. There is nothing Jewish about killing innocent civilians and violating international laws that include the human rights violations. And yet you’re sitting here calling me delusional while the very link you’ve sent shows that oppositions against the very state you call “Jewish” is not in the vibe of the Jews itself. You’re a walking contradiction. Try harder this is amusing 😂 😂

[tartaarsaus]

@TruthBringer

Ugh, you’re such an idiot. You keep changing your points of what constitutes “support” for Israel.

[tartaarsaus]

And yes, if someone contradicts some teachings of Judaism - not that you are remotely capable of judging that anyway - but formally is still Jewish, they are real Jews. Again, you’re in no position to declare anyone a fake Jew

[TruthBringer]

@tartaarsaus yeah, tehre isa difference between a real Jew who actually follows the teachings and a Jew who calls himself a Jew and does everythign that contradicts the teachings. Judaism is not only a birthright. There is a reason why some Jews oppose others. It's called common sense. I'm sure many Jews don't like t when you call every Jew a Jew just because of their birth, despite them making a mockery of the religion by their actions. Come back when you have valid arguments to give other than "b b b but their MOM is a Jew so they are JEWISH!"

[tartaarsaus]

@TruthBringer

Lol you’re on your own defining who a real or fake Jew is while also contradicting Jewish halacha by doing so. Seriously, you have exactly zero right to redefine who a “real” Jew is and who a “fake” Jew.

[TruthBringer]

@tartaarsaus @tartaarsaus How am I changing anything? The fact you resort to ad hominems goes to show your frustration is showing since you fail to contradict the very fact that you've proved my point with the link you thought was going to debunk me. I've made it very clear that in my main point, the Jews who oppose Israel is because of it's actions and policies. And YOUR link proved that. And in addition, I've mentioned that there are even Jews who believe they are not supposed to have a state until their Messiah arrives, which makes them oppose the current state. This goes to show not every Jew is the same, nor of the same mindset. And there are a lot of oppositions. And you're coming here trying to put a defintion of what a real Jew is. While I'm speaking out of common sense that just because someone is born Jewish, doesn't mean that person is truly a Jew if they contradict the teachings. Once again common sense. And now you're getting frustrated because you found out you're arguing against common sense. Like I said, try harder.
There are many Jews who will call others fake Jews. The very Jews themeselves to what you accuse me of doing 😂. Your emotional state has shown itself. It’s best for you to take your feels elsewhere mate

[liel443]

How can it be a Jewish extremist organization if most of them aren't even religious?

[Ad_Quid_Orator]

'Also, one thing that pisses me off is when people say that Israel is a secular country. Well they may have a secular law code but they still give first class citizenship to a religious group. To give an analogy, lets say Iran adopted a secular law code but gave Shias first class citizenship, Sunnis second class, Christians and Jews third class citizenship and non-monotheists fourth class citizenship, would you call them "secular"?'

[liel443]

I don't know what you're talking about. There is no such thing as 'first class citizenship' in Israel. I've been in a semester at an Israeli university and I've seen A LOT of Arab students. They're tuition is subsidized, like the Jewish students, because they're all citizens. The only difference is that for Arab students acceptence is easier, because of affirmative action. I've seen Arab professors, Arab lawyers, Arab engineers. When you go to hospitals you see Arab doctors and nurses, Arab pharmacists...
I did not see orthodox Jewish doctors, nurses or professors.

So I truly don't know what you're talking about.

[jshm2]

The occupying state of Israel exists only to be a tax haven, and an insurance policy against any future Arab\Persian empire rising out the region.

[Lottifan]

Not at all.

[ItsMeItsMe1989]

Technically