To be clear I am not saying Ukraine should be invaded or that Ukrainian lives don't matter. But I am asking if the rest of the world should really care or make as much of a big deal out of it as the media and government do here in the U. S. and in Europe. I feel like the U. S. government is really pushing this because they almost hope we can have a reason to finally fight Russia.
I can maybe understand the panic a little more for the European side because the situation is right there at their doorstep, but they too are ramping up the panic. The only person who is trying to remain calm is Ukraine's president Zelensky, although he still acknowledges the situation could become dangerous.
Also, I feel like if Russia wanted to invade some other country for whatever beef they had with them we would not care nearly as much. Just for example if it were Ethiopia, India, Brazil, etc. for whatever reason Russia would want to invade them, I think we wouldn't care that much.
Should we care about the Russia-Ukraine situation?
In 1994, on December 5, the United States, United Kingdom, Ukraine, and Russia signed the Budapest memorandum. In this agreement which followed the START I agreements with the defunct Soviet Union, the Ukrainian government undertook to give up its nuclear arsenal. The arsenal consisted of 130 SS-19s, each capable of delivering six nuclear weapons, and 46 SS-24s, each armed with ten nuclear weapons. Several dozen bombers with strategic nuclear capabilities were armed with some 600 air-launched missiles, along with gravity bombs. In addition, as many as 3000 tactical nuclear weapons rounded out an arsenal totalling approximately 5000 strategic and tactical weapons. At the time, the targeting of Ukrainian ICBMs was largely on the US.
According to the memorandum, Russia, the United States, and the United Kingdom agree, in exchange for Ukraine's accession to the Nuclear Weapons Non-Proliferation Treaty and the transfer of its nuclear arsenal to Russia to: · Respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its current borders.
· Refrain from any threats or use of force against Ukraine.
· Refrain from using economic pressure on Ukraine to influence its policy.
· Seek UN Security Council approval if nuclear weapons are used against Ukraine.
· Refrain from using nuclear weapons against Ukraine.
· Consult other interested parties if questions arise about these commitments.
Russia has systematically violated the treaty. First using the gas supply weapon and putting strong political pressure on Kiev. Russia militarily invaded Ukrainian territory by occupying Crimea and financing a guerrilla war in the Donbass basin. Russia regularly and illegally blocks and inspects ships transiting the Kerch Strait from or bound for Ukrainian ports.
In Russia, Putin has handled the pandemic very badly. Although they developed the first vaccine, less than half of the population got the vaccine. This is because no one trusts the government as it did experiments on the population in Soviet times. Russia has had 711,546 deaths from covid-19 compared to 921,000 in the US with a population equal to 44% of that of the US.
Putin in this has taken up old narratives of how much Russia has been humiliated by the bad West that has taken away Ukraine from it and is besieging and surrounding it. As Hitler did in Germany after the fall of WWI. Putin's aim is to show that he still has a straight penis and that he is not a failure, therefore he has moved a huge army to the borders with Ukraine and the puppet state of Belarus.
Putin's goal is to break the West but he is getting the opposite result. Ukraine has never wanted to join NATO but Russian aggression is pushing other countries to join such as Finland. Finalndia has just bought 64 F35As and is a country of 5.5 million people, has modernized the 100 tanks available etc... Italy for example has 70 F35s between A and B and a population ten times greater.
Personally the UN has proven totally ineffective in this.
what we are really talking about is the invasion of a sovereign nation by another for no reason.
If Ukraine had of been carrying out terrorist attacks within Russia, or similar, then there would be an element of justification from the Russian side.
The fact it was part of the USSR is not relevant, it’s a sovereign nation,
The other thing is once Russia has full control of the Black Sea and by use of Syria the Mediterranean. This has been a goal of Russia since before the Crimean war and was one of many reasons for that war.
After the Ukraine is part of the Russian Empire, which other sovereign nation should the UN let the Russians take?
If anything the Russian activity has given NATO a boost and is giving it justification for its existence.
A lot of this could be applied to Germany from 1930, assuming GaG was around, as on the face of things, Germany was punished too severely after WW1.
previously I’ve been the guy running across an aircraft shelter to help launch a Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) jet for Russian probing runs at the UK, and also done same when deployed to Lithuania as part of NATO commitments there.
Yes everyone can sit there and do nothing, let Russia have Ukraine, live with the civilian deaths, the round up of people etc. Then what though, it’s not like Putin will sit comfortably back now he has what he wants.
It also means a stronger Russia is able to support a stronger China in say 5 years time.
Taiwan and South Korea will be an easy option after Ukraine.
It seems like the whole of the West is more afraid of what Russia might risk if they stand up against the US intent to piss across the border onto Russia's soil.
What I don't get is that it's only now, when the situation is really sensitive, that people are asking about what the US would do if China or Russia started arming Mexico or Canada? Wtf is Putin supposed to do with his country's sworn enemy dropping troops and weapons just across the border?
On top of that, nobody is asking the Ukrainians how they feel, what they want, because of this garbage being spread around about Russia annexing Crimea. It's culturally Russian, just like the east of the Ukraine. They speak Russian, they learn Russian, they eat the food, drink the drink--they're Russian. The western Ukraine is Ukrainian, they speak Ukrainian, etc. The eastern part of the Ukraine hasn't been under Kyiv's control for getting close to ten years, and, back then, the whole country was already being run from Moscow. And the further back you go in history, Russia has always had an overwhelming presence in the Ukraine and absolutely on the eastern side of the country.
It's not about defending Putin that there is opposition to the weak war mongers in the west, but about giving the actual people of the Ukraine a chance to sort out their internal issues, and not leaving their fate in the hands of the usual disgusting mobs of bankers and arms dealers, and the traitorous politicians who pretend to not grovel and grasp for the money involved.
For US citizens, especially those who are glad to see the back of Trump, it's time to realize that Biden isn't a whole hell of a lot better. Why is he risking the start of war in a place and a time where escalation is inevitable? Just as Trump surrounded himself with approving sycophants, Biden is surrounded by people who provide him with their script, just like Ronald Reagan, back then. Biden could barely be trusted to find his own house on a map, and the only thing that he know for sure about the Ukraine is that his son was mixed up in something or other over there. So, i'm thinking, wait a minute, it's not that I'd trust Trump to tell the time without lying, but is that why Biden is so intent on getting to Kyiv, to stop Putin from getting hold of something that Hunter left behind?
If not, then why is he willing to start WWIII over a country that, just like Poland, hasn't been able to support and/or defend itself ever because it's stuck right in the middle of the road that various neighboring empires have used to get close enough to attack Russia? The regular folks being interviewed in the Ukraine are laughing about the Russians invading, saying, Why would they? There's nothing here? So, again, what does Biden know that the folks on the street over there don't?
Just because Ukrainians speak Russian, eat Russian food, etc. does not mean they are not their own people. Ukrainian is their original language, and if you go back centuries they were their own kingdom the Kievan Rus'. And technically they were a lot larger around that region at that time than they are now, and were in much of western Russia that Russia took over. When they shouldn't have.
Americans speak English and came from UK roots, does that mean we're not American and shouldn't have our own country?
As for Biden, I do agree that this is all a move of his to only prove that he can be an aggressive military president, seeing as Democratic presidents have often been viewed as weak while Repubs have always wanted to be aggressive and have reasons to go to war. So in SOME sense I can see why Biden would want to appear to be militarily competent, just not with this particular situation, that also seems to be America's way of hoping we can attack Russia.
@Alexxess I remember reading that the Rus were originally from Skandinavia. Does this mean they should all be wearing Birkenstocks and munching on Wasabrod, from Kiev to Vladivostock? No idea, myself. Just having fun with the thought of all sides on the muddy border landscape, stumbling around in clogs.
@ManOnFire You have some weird logic all of your own going on with the conclusions you draw, not to mention the premises your working with. Like the idea that Americans only consist of the English speaking descendants of religious fanatics that Europe rejected. Half an hour's aural observation on the streets of most American cities' commercial centers will blow the notion that English is the only means of regularly used communication. On top of that, you completely misread what I wrote. Or deliberately misinterpreted it.
I've never understood this pacifist tendency on the left to avoid conflict at the expense of people who overwhelmingly wish to receive aid. 88.4% of Ukrainians in Russian speaking cities did NOT want to join Russia, and the Crimean intervention seriously damaged ties not only between political leaders of each country, but between citizenry.
Some people just cling to this narrative that everything the US or the West does is for self-aggrandizement, and therefore no act big or small could be for anyone else's benefit. Myopic and stupid.
@Derekk I'm probably wasting my time right now, and I do have a whole lot to do today, so please appreciate this. The U. S. never acts, even internally, out of any other interest than it's own profit, and it is not alone in being that way. The very definition of nationhood is based on market value, as in banks that can trade, using a currency that has value beyond a nations borders, and the value of that currency is based on negotiable resources, as in the products of agriculture, machinery production, even, often, plainly the exploitation of cheap labor. The myth of US benevolence, in particular, is one that that nation's most frequently cited cautionary advice, that there is no free lunch, immediately and decisively cancels--so please, either work on your presentation, so that we can have a more interesting conversation, or grow up and stop believing in false promises.
I think you probably are wasting your time yes. I have no earthly idea what you mean by "the definition of nationhood is based on market value"... I was going to jokingly assume you've been reading a bit too much Chomsky but Chomsky is actually intelligent, so clearly it's been something else. Hopefully you can find a better way to come across as the insightful and cultured intellect that you try so very hard to portray yourself as. I recommend moving off of GaG as your first move. Unless talking circles around socially conservative windbags is your prary source of achievement.
@Derekk Sorry, Derekk, I'm done trying to dumb things down for you. Honestly, that you have difficulty with the idea that nationhood is determined by market value reveals that you are, to use a quaint English colloquialism, talking through your hat; i. e., making noise that means nothing. As I previously mentioned, I'm too short on time, today, to pursue this further, right now.
Sorry I wasn't aware that the definition of nationhood and the determining cause of nationhood were the same thing. Maybe you should avoid talking through your own hat and try being a bit clearer next time.
I can't address your theory of nationhood because you're taking a standard term used in a million different contexts and attaching your own ideological baggage to it. Nowhere in any standard definition of "nationhood" is there anything remotely connected to market value or currency. You're making a separate argument stating that nationhood requires capital (does it require anything else?) But you don't really elaborate further beyond explaining how resource acquisition and trade works. If you decide to find your balls later today, you can come back and explain yourself.
@Buntyp "On top of that, you completely misread what I wrote." No, I think you just did. I said America has its ROOTS from the UK. I am American and am very aware of the diversity here. Hell, I live in the nation's second most diverse region, as I even speak Spanish as a SL.
Not sure what conclusions I'm drawing as I'm simply telling you what IS Ukraine's history and culture.
@Derekk Sorry, you just got even too much more boring and dull to deal with. You're just saying the same thing over and over, thinking that it will become more relevant through repetition.
It was a semi-accurate translation yes. Missed a couple words. Anyways after seeing your interactions with the other two people here, I've decided that you aren't arguing in good faith and/or have something resembling a learning disability. Best of luck with that
Yes, we should worry about it. It will not just affect us, but it will affect the entire world, including Russia itself, and it will pose a threat on Taiwan, which China believes is theirs ( it’s not). We can’t send troops to Ukraine because they aren’t part of NATO. But we can send troops to some of the neighboring countries that are. Here are the facts of what this can impact: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/02/14/politics/biden-putin-russia-ukraine-analysis/index.html
Yes of course... because is going to be terrible... because Russian still have that heart of no forgiveness towards American since word word 11. with so much angers with them... they we be ready to END American word power. So American are two wise 🤣🤣to to pick a fight against any body not even oman. or Philippines. America put out of Afghanistan is because they have realize there mistakes of fighting to make money have put china ahead of them in everything. Except for this world power. Is just because of the dollar anyway. So now china have New meltod of helping Africa with loan of money with the option of development with the money ok let say 60percent. in which 2021chines government sign agreement with the federal republic of Nigeria... to be using Chinese money in the country. In which is likely to start up in 2024.. so with this my little knowledge. America wouldn't even there to believe me because is part of china deal with Russia china we be the most weapons supply den Iran.. American is ahead of nation cause Dem know all this things... that is why Dem put out of Afghanistan to rebuild there self generally. COVID-19 is a distraction china know that is why Dem action. All the action was because of America. To let them know china is ready.. even 911was plan by America to distract the entire word and Dem succeed.
Here in the UK we regularly see newspaper stories of russian planes sent packing from our airspace. Mostly it's just slow newsday stuff but it's a reminder of how close we are to Russia. It would only take a stupid comment or bad move by the government to bring the war directly to us. And when you've got a clown at the helm like Boris thats worrying.
Along with the fact that if one single Militia member stepped into the UK and said "I'm here to colonize England", your entire military along with all of the European union would wave white flags and give up instantly.
Hence why we have to keep sending troops to you at our own expense
You can have England. The last time an American tried to invade wales (William tate, irish-American 1797) he and his army had their fat asses kicked by the local women.
@purplepoppy Wow what a thing to say on ❤'s day. You know damn well if my Irish American ass came to your shithole country, I would give you chocolate. And I'm just saying, as much shit you give us about our guns and nationalism, it looks like you could send the Russians some flowers in a hot air balloon, that has a big peace symbol on it.
Come to North Carolina this summer, guys. We'll get you all some nice sunshine, a beautiful beach, some good food, and you can go back to Britain feeling brand new. Putin will seem like a cunning little teddy bear.
We should care about every war that breaks out, regardless of where it may be, because every war represents a failure on our part to transcend our base instincts, our propensity to resort to violence. It's yet more evidence that we, as a species, will wind up destroying ourselves, and every war that breaks out brings us closer to that. This whole situation could so easily have been avoided, and if you want someone to blame then blame the E. U. and the coup-plotters in the U. S. administration who thought it would be such a great idea to remove the democratically-installed, freely-elected government of Victor Yanukovych back in 2014. All of this talk of "defending democracy" or "coming to the aid of a democratic nation", that some here have harped on about, is just so much complete and utter bullshit. Ukraine isn't a democracy; it's president is a U. S. puppet.
No one wants to fight Russia over Ukraine. And I can tell you firsthand, Ukrainians think all Americans are cowards starting with the Obama administration. Then Trump basically sucked Putin off on the world stage, then finally Biden who promises a he will give Putin a stern talking to, as they have murdered, killed and violated Ukrainian sovereignty for 8 years.
I have friends on both sides of this fight and it is embarrassing to see how little Americans understand about this conflict.
You mentioned Zelensky. . . what does Zelensky want from the U. S. and its allies?
I too have friends on both sides, my Russian ones don't agree with any of this war stuff. Which is the part we're not hearing in the media: the Russian people really don't even want a war to happen.
As of recent, the only thing he really wanted was actual proof that Russia is going to invade. Overall? That's a good question.
Dude, on the day Russia invaded Crimea, I was in Red Square. I was at the Kremlin working on a network integration project. It must have been 40,000 people gathered there. And there were almost as many police. I thought they were down there showing support for Putin. And my interpreter explained, nope. They were there protesting.
If Putin invades Ukraine, he will be fighting a war on two fronts. One in Russia and the other in Ukraine.
Zelensky wants lethal aid. What Ukraine wants everyone to know is they are not upset or panicking because the panic should have happened 8 years ago. Every single day Ukrainian sovereignty is violated. The war began 8 years ago and people are dying all the time.
And in case Russia invades, they are preparing an insurgency. One that will keep Russia's military engaged in Ukraine while support for the war continues to erode at home.
But at this point, I think Putin has gone a bit crazy. He really feels that all the former Soviet states are his to control. He is in for a rude awakening. Slavs don't roll that way. It is why the Soviet Union failed in the first place.
And honestly, you don't think that Russia is just filled folks from the Russian ethnicity right? You do know that there are Russians, Latvians, Georgians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, etc. . . right?
I do know that. I used to study Caucusus region history, and I still love it. You also know there are more ethnic groups around there than just the ones you mentioned, right? People that 90% of the world's population have never even heard of.
But as far as Ukraine, are you saying Zelensky wants lethal aid for the WRONG reasons? Or for literal self defense?
Haha! Saying that you know something after I posted it isn't dropping any knowledge. I posted a sampling of ethnic groups ending with the three letters. . . ETC, meaning the word "et cetera". But you have conveniently forgotten how English works.
The definition reads as follows;
used at the end of a list to indicate that further, similar items are included.
Again, I have actually been to Russia twice.
Now back to something that is actually substantive.
Zelensky wants lethal aid. I don't know what you are getting from my statement. You claimed he wants us to calm down. Dude, again, he said the time for panic was over 8 years ago. They have lived under the Russian threat every single day. And this time they are supposed to panic?
He wants guns, anit-tank weapons, etc. Because if Putin comes across the border, they want to organize an insurgency like America faced in Iraq.
There is no way that Putin could sustain a campaign, not with Russian soldiers dying every single day.
It is funny how the West doesn't even cover the resentment Russians had towards him when he claimed no Russian military was in Donbass but they were sending back body bags every day.
Now do you want to post something not found in a google search or what>
Not sure how me saying I studied that history is a rush to say I know something just because you mentioned groups of people most of us already do know about🤨 I was talking about the core history of the region and ethnic groups there like the Adyghe and others who are next to never talked about. You said "You do know that there are Russians, Latvians, Georgians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, etc. . . right?" and I answered.
Bravo that you've been to Russia twice. I don't really care. We can all go anywhere in the world and still not understand everything about the culture.
If Ukraine does want to create an insurgency, then Russia has it coming. I have no issue with it.
Yeah, I am sure you know all about the groups after I mentioned them. Awesome.
I mean, I can stop posting for a bit and you can lay down all that knowledge you have about the region. And I am glad you feel that Ukrainians need your input on building an insurgency.
I mean, my mistake. You sound just like a brother who has friends who are scared to death right at this moment in the Kharkiv subway listening to bombs going off all around them.
I mean you sound just like the guy who has been posting them via facebook messenger all day. You sound like a guy who is crying because his friend's daughter was on MSNBC giving an interview about how once they heard the first explosion, they were off and running. With children and babies in their arms. . .
Or maybe you just sound like another ignorant ass troll posting on GaG without clue about what is happening over there.
If Russia invaded the US, our cowardly NATO allies wouldn't do a damn thing, just like they do nothing about terrorist attacks in their own countries and we've had to send soldiers to them at our own expense for the past few decades. Let Russia have their fun and Ukrainians can either fight back or stand by like a bunch of weaklings
It's all ego about Putin he wants to show the world that he's the man the fucker needs to be removed on the planet they're doing it because they can do it they're doing it because they print money left and right he doing it because they hack people's computers your little gang it's all Russia is criminals Russian government is in a cyber war with every country right now because of all the hacking that's going on one of these days there's going to be some messed-up stuff happening
Democracy has many surface promises and one of them is that those who have the power to stand up to bullies will on behalf of those who do not. To abandon Ukraine is to abandon that promise, thus further eroding the appeal of democracy worldwide. The problem with that is, while any system of government can work as long as everyone agrees, only democracy is designed from the ground up to work when everyone disagrees. Democracy is what keeps us from engaging in routine political violence. So, letting it erode is a bad idea, however eager some have convinced themselves they are to participate in said violence (one lucky shot is all it takes to force them to die mad or regretting it).
@cyclekarl "The Bullies here are the Ukrainian regime." So did Putin threaten to poison you to death if you didn't defend Russia? Give me a break, dude. Take your gaslighting elsewhere.
@supercutebutt I am not gas lighting at all you are talking nonsense and have obviously been brainwashed my the fake stream media. America is the problem here they have always started coups in foreign countries it's called Geopolitics they put puppets in place to suit their own interests. America lied about the WMD's and are using the same tactics again you are obviously very foolish or just plainly indoctrinated! I feel sorry for you!.
First of my dear friend. India has the fourth strongest milliatry in the world and also it had the guts to go against china in 2020 almost at war so obviously USA would definetly interfere. Why us USA interfering? Because it's part of the NATO. and USA is obviously forcing ukraine into the nato as USA wants to corner Russia as ukraine in nato gives USA direct land border control on Russia. Russia is just trying to safe itself and giving back the whole west that we don't care as it is quite close to China too.
It is in the interest of both USA and Europe that Russia does not become more powerful or get better access to warm water ports in the black sea. Even if we disregard all considerations of empathy to the people effected or the sovereignty of Ukraine as a nation it is still worth cockblocking Putin for everyone involved for purely selfish interests.
@cyclekarl And yet the majority of the Russian black sea navy is stationed in Crimea. I am not saying they do not have other ports, just that these ones are far more important and useful.
No, other countries problems are their problems, not ours... @ManOnFire And I agree with you when you said that the US government is sort of pushing it because they want the fight. It's kind of sad the be honest. I think they should just stay out of it. It's not their problem.
How about we look at our own borders first? We already got 3+ million new illegals being flown to different states. Why do Democrats care so much about Ukraine border when ours is wide open? Fentanyl, crack, heroine, child sex trafficking, covid, murder, theft all dramatically increase when you let this happen. If people are so scared of Covid, why are we letting so many illegals in? They aren’t vaccinated. It causes more inflation and higher taxes. We are going to feel the ripple effects of this for generations. We may actually have a Great Depression because of this.
It’s not if we should care. That’s a personal choice. The problem is that those countries have a democracy and shouldn’t be annex by another country for that reason. This one reason Russia has been targeting the west in cyberspace with the use of troll farms and bots. They want to weaken the democratic system so they can reclaim territory. Russia are the very clear aggressors here and there’s no doubt about it. If you care or not is up to you.
You don't know what you're talking about. Russia wanting to invade Ukraine, means Russia wanting to close the access Europe has to the east. Ukraine geo position is highly valuable for the main dominant countries: US, China, UK, Australia, France, Japan, Russia, etc...
The other countries you mention are also of huge importance. Russia taking over India? Most likely China than Russia. Russia taking over Brasil? Right, lol. By military force, Russia would not do such things, however it has been successfull doing it trough political influence. Ethiopia? Hmmm, no, like for what?
I don't think Russia is gonna invade Ukraine. If it do happen, the US and allies wouldn't be able to directly help Ukraine, for this simple reason: Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Either way; if it due happen, it would be the end of Putin regime and it will certainly be an added problem that will affect every aspect of everyones life, worldwide. Is not a war anyone sane would desire.
All this trouble in the Ukraine was started by American when they backed a coup d'état of fascists led by Poroshenko who was more favourable to America than Yanukovych who was the democratically elected leader of the Ukraine who happened to be pro Russian. Victoria Nuland masterminded it and the EU was in on it as well. America wants the Ukraine in the EU as they would automatically join N. A. T. O then they could put bases right up against Russia's border to intimidate them. As for war with Russia they don't want war with the Ukraine as they are ethnically the same people but the Ukraine is being run by fascists who are attacking and killing Russians who live in Luhansk and the Donbas Russia will only cross the border if things go to far and who can blame them.
"they almost hope we can have a reason to finally fight Russia."
I disagree with that. The U. S. isn't looking to fight anyone right now. We just got done fighting a 20 year war in Afghanistan -- THAT WE LOST!
The U. S. just needs to have a decade with no war so it can rebuild its military into something capable of winning a war.
Russia doesn't pose a threat to the West as they aren't the military power they used to be (for example, the Russian navy currently has just one aircraft carrier).
Also, the U. S. desperately needs Russia as an ally against China -- who actually IS a threat.
And the biggest thing of all: Ukraine has no strategic importance to the U. S. -- so why fight with Russia over it?
Pretty sure US made a legal contract to protect Ukraine so they have to care which is why there so worried about it. The reputation of USA deal's are on the line, if they don't do it how could anyone trust there other contracts made.
If your talking about your self personally? Depends how much empathy you have I guess? If you don't care about a country been invaded and people been killed then don't. If you do then do.
I do care. I support Ukraine and their independence and I think Putin is being a bully, but should the U. S. really be so heavily involved and ready to strike? Like I said, if for whatever reason Putin wanted to invade some place like Ethiopia or Nigeria, America would not give nearly the damn they're giving with this situation.
Again they have a deal with Ukraine so they have to care it's their reputation and deals on the line. The one from the cold war. You don't go back on your word and if you do with a binding contract with another country there will be hell to pay.
It's currently affecting gas prices around the world, other than that, let them solve their own disputes. I know usa signed that document in WWII saying as the word super power we will assist our allies in need... but we should avoid situations that will cause WWIII.
When one country invades another, they don't stop there so yes, we should care but on the other hand if you let Russia invade Ukraine then Russia will spend lots of money and resources in doing so and bring their Economy down with it and destroy a good amount of their war machine so it's a double edge sword
