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There is nothing free in life. Do doctors work for free, nurses? Who is paying them? If you print money out of thin air , that causes the prices to inflate. If you raise taxes then that hurts more than what you need a doctor for.
Again this why kids are so stupid coming out of high school , they are told this crap. Would you be for "free " healthcare if you got taxed 50% of you income?
Thank you for your splendid post.
50% of income 😄. You know what you're talking about. Search on Google for the differences in taxation between the US and Canada. In case you're wondering, Canada is a capitalist country that incorporated some things borrowed from socialism in its political system, such as (most importantly) free healthcare. It doesn't make it a socialist state. It just makes it a nicer place to live.
I don't mind at all my income being taxed 10% more (on average) than some chump living in the US, instead of having to pay a 20,000$ hospital bill for some insignificant injury or procedure, or totally insane prices for medication. And lo and behold! Canadians are not poor (in fact, they're probably richer, on average, than US citizens) and they're healthy. What's more, there is just as many dumb conservatives who promote conspiracy theories here than there is in the US. Of course, they all imagine that they would be millionaires if they were taxed 10% less. Stupidity knows no borders, unfortunately.
Germany has very high taxes. Do you think they care? No! They prefer that in order to have free education, healthcare, social aid, etc.
Look at all the counties that have those things... They are doing so bad. Oh wait not really.
the thing is most people don't understand then horrors socialism brings healthcare and minimum wage sounds nice but ultimately it destroys societies. capitalism earns and builds socials takes and destroys
So, Germany was destroyed by its public healthcare, free education from primary school to doctorates and minimum wage? Thanks for informing me, I must have missed that memo.
@DryGermanGuy Before you talk nonsense, first you need to learn what socialism is. Yeonmi Park'swas born in 1993 and left North Korea with her mother at age 13. Read her book "In Order to Live A North Korean Girl's Journey to Freedom" to learn what a socialist paradise is.
@Snsl153 the USSR China North Korea nazi Germany Venezuela had have 1 thing in common all were socialist countries. United Soviet socialist republic, the nation German socialist workers party Mao supported socialism he never fully supported the Karl Marx idea of communism. Marxist idea of communism is first revolution the set up a socialist environment where everyone one works for the social good. Then the government steps down and you have true communism. Minimum wage is a socialist idea benefit the collective so force wealth redistribution by forcing business but government to pay a certain wage. Ration health care if your to each according to there ability to each accounting to his needs, when your needs are greater then your ability it’s best for the collective and society for you to die. Universal health care more like rationed healthcare given out only to who can still work and benefit the collective of you can’t you die. So yes universal healthcare is socialist.
@DryGermanGuy Canada and all of Europe have thoroughly been destroyed by 'socialism'. That's why most of these countries are practically third-world countries populated with a few extremely rich people and lots of extremely poor people, and a middle-class that's disappearing. Gun violence, racism, poor education, great social injustices, a culture of stupidity and ignorance, religious fanaticism and a rising trend towards fascism are slowly destroying a proud and fair democratic system that once was the envy of the world...
Oh wait, I didn't realize I was talking about the United States all along!😄
@Danzigdawson half of Europe was destroy by socialism remember the USSR and the iron curtain? The United States is slowly turning into the USSR. Remember ww2 which was started by the national socialist German workers party? Remember the Chinese revolution? Have you people never read the communist manifesto by Karl Marx?
No. The US is slowly turning into a far-right totalitarian christofascist state BECAUSE idiots are affraid that it's in the process of becoming the USSR.
Labeling the nazis as 'socialists' is just as stupid as claiming that the USSR was in fact a capitalist country because they had a monetary system and you could buy some 'luxury' consumer goods in state-owned stores.
Make no mistake, nazi germany was a far-right fascist state and the main feature of its ideology was a strong belief in social darwinism, survival of the fittest, which is, by the way, also a hugely important to some conservatives, libertarians and the alt-right in the US and the main reason why most idiots think that socialism is the government-sanctionned robbery of 'good people' to feed 'feeble' people unworthy of consideration.
The so-called 'socialist' features within nazi germany were basically a propaganda tool to appeal to a wider variety of voters, in a post-war germany deeply divided between the left and the right, when the nazis were trying to get elected in the early 1930's, before their takeover of the whole government in 1933. During their reign of terror, the 'socialist' benefits were of course reserved only for the "true germans" and were put in place, again, as a propaganda tool to build a model nation in which the ('deserving') population would have a higher standard of living than most countries at the time.
The nazis certainly didn't believe in spending any amount of money to help poorer or 'feeble' people. Far from it. For instance, their main reason justifying the euthanasia of the mentally-challenged, handicaped or mentally-ill people were simply that these people were a financial burden to the state. Euthanasia... Let that sink in. There's a well-known nazi propaganda poster (search "volksgenosse das ist auch dein geld" in google to find it) that, when translated in English, reads: "60,000 RM (Reich marks). This is what this person suffering from hereditary defects costs the community during his lifetime".
Finally, former western european countries that were engulfed within the eastern bloc (such as Poland, the Czech Republic and East germany) were ruined because they were puppet states ruled by the Soviet Union. What is the Soviet Union? It's Russia: a country that's always been under some form of poorly-managed, brutal totalitarianism. It was true at the time of the czars (a monarchy). It was true during the communist regime. It's still true today under Putin, in a state where billionaires rule politics (capitalist far-right state).
Communism is to blame, of course, because it's a grey, bland, depressing, unappealing system that becomes especially unbearable when corruption and dictatorship are added to the mix. But most of these former eastern-bloc countries, especially Germany and Poland, eventually managed to rise back from the dead because they became free-market democracies incorporating elements of socialism to improve the living standards of their citizens.
But socialism is not communism. And democracies that incorporates some elements of socialism into their otherwise capitalist way of life and not socialist states.
I known it's a lot of complex, seemingly untrue information for people who went to Fox News and Youtube university... But you can easily research all of that if you want to. But you don't want to, since there's a risk you could become "communist" in the process.
@KelleyNice
Don’t get snarky with me, kid. As a German I need neither Americans nor Koreans explaining socialism to me. Obviously as a German I am a direct witness to a socialist East-Germany only a few kilometers away from West-Germany, and that for some ~40 years. So, we saw everyday how their country was working out for them. Fun fact: Even with all its problems, East-Germany was the most successful country in the Eastern bloc and in fact viewed by others as a „socialist paradise“. Fun fact two: South-Koreans visited Germany after reunification to learn from us about all the problems and pitfalls for their anticipated reunification.
@Danzigdawson
Thank you for your excellent posting. I could not have written it better. 🫡👍
@DryGermanGuy Thanks 👍! Sometimes it's worth putting in a little extra effort just to show how stupid and ignorant those idiots can be.
@Danzigdawson I guess ignorance is bliss so do yourself a favor and don't look up the definition of NAZI.
@DWornock One thing YOU could do is get past the mere name of the party and do a bit of research about the nazis' "socialism".
The party was named "National Socialist German Workers Party" for propaganda purposes, to appeal to a wider range of voters.
And about the nazis' "socialism" (from encyclopedia britannica):
"In the 1920's, the brothers Otto and Gregor Strasser did much to grow the party by tying Hitler’s racist nationalism to socialist rhetoric that appealed to the suffering lower middle classes. In doing so, the Strassers also succeeded in expanding the Nazi reach beyond its traditional Bavarian base. By the late 1920s, however, with the German economy in free fall, Hitler had enlisted support from wealthy industrialists who sought to pursue avowedly anti-socialist policies. Otto Strasser soon recognized that the Nazis were neither a party of socialists nor a party of workers, and in 1930 he broke away to form the anti-capitalist Schwarze Front (Black Front). Gregor remained the head of the left wing of the Nazi Party, but the lot for the ideological soul of the party had been cast.
[In] July [1934] Hitler banned all political parties other than his own, and prominent members of the German Communist Party and the Social Democratic Party were arrested and imprisoned in concentration camps. Lest there be any remaining questions about the political character of the Nazi revolution, Hitler ordered the murder of Gregor Strasser, an act that was carried out on June 30, 1934, during the Night of the Long Knives. Any remaining traces of socialist thought in the Nazi Party had been extinguished."
Wake up, moron. One of their slogans was "tod dem marxismus" (death to marxism).
In April 1933 communists, socialists, democrats, and Jews were purged from the German civil service, and trade unions were outlawed the following month.
@Danzigdawson That, i. e., murder and a dictatorship absolutely describes socialism.
Opinion
24Opinion
No because in some countries they realise that certain things in life can be provided.
an example, free mental health support.
free contraception,
by providing those, you do make a difference.
There should be a national Living wage, not a minimum one, unless of course it is higher.
How accessible is mental health support in the US, how much is free for under 25’s?
How many times is mental health blamed on mass shootings.
How accessible is contraception, free at point of issue, available in the US, how many teen pregnancies, how many kids in the care system. How much does it cost to support a person from 0 to 18 in the care system versus price of a condom and or contraceptive pill.
Period poverty is a real thing in the western world, where families living in or close to poverty have the option of food on table or sanitary products.
Its not that people want others to pay, we recognise it’s a human thing to care, that some things are cheaper to fund early on rather than the consequences of not funding it.
Imagine not having to pay for the simple natural act of giving birth.
Also you can have both private and public side by side.
Ref update, typical American Naivety on global politics 🤦🤦🤦
There is no better example nor can you find any example showing the opposite. Your beliefs are based on feeling not facts.
No they are based on facts.
What do you think the Labour Party are.
Typical dumb American
You do not even have left wing parties in the US, utterly pathetic
I live in a country with free health care, minimum wage etc.
Guess what we have a right wing government, before then we had centre left, etc and a few left wing governments.
Not feelings.
Highlights typical stupidity.
Just like I stated, you can provide no example of the opposite. Therefore, feelings not facts.
We have the NHS, we have minimum wage
What do you think the Heath government was 🤦
Go shove your head back in the sand.
The is such a thing as UK and Scandinavian socialism.
Not only are Spams crap on geography but also politics.
You have shown no example where a country divided into capitalism and socialism where socialism prospered but capitalism didn't. Therefore, you may have the last word but I done with you.
That was not your question lol.
Changing the question because you don’t like the answer.
Pathetic really.
Typical of a low intelligence really.
There is a world outside of the US.
There are socialist parties such as say new labour that did fairly well.
Also you can have capitalist countries with socialist governments, however pointless pointing that out to someone so stupid.
You shouldn't be surpised at Americans saying they like the sound of "socialism"; Republicans and special interest lobbies have been telling them that it means "anything the government does that helps the people" for nearly a hundred years, now.
Truman, Syracuse, New York, 10 October 1952: "Taft explained that the great issue in this campaign is “creeping socialism.” Now that is the patented trademark of the special interest lobbies. Socialism is a scare word they have hurled at every advance the people have made in the last 20 years.
Socialism is what they called public power.
Socialism is what they called social security.
Socialism is what they called farm price supports.
Socialism is what they called bank deposit insurance.
Socialism is what they called the growth of free and independent labor organizations.
Socialism is their name for almost anything that helps all the people.
When the Republican candidate inscribes the slogan “Down With Socialism” on the banner of his “great crusade,” that is really not what he means at all.
What he really means is, “Down with Progress — down with Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal,” and “down with Harry Truman’s fair Deal.” That is what he means."
Usually when I hear someone say something should be free, it is because they either cannot afford it, or they do not want to buy it or work for it.
Nothing is free, someone has to pay for it and the government is extremely wasteful in everything is does.
My Uncle died in Canada when Covid first started cause of their crappy socialist healthcare system, had he been in the states a good chance he would still be with us, but the border was closed and he couldn't get here.
I wouldn't wish government run healthcare on anyone, take the worst government agency and have them decide your healthcare while they ration care, long waiting lists and worst.
People often think inside their own little bubble though and think it will make their own personal life better, they don't see the big picture, all they really care about is themselves.
That is human nature.
Thank you for telling it like it is.
Most westerners take socialism for granted every single day, and then go online and decry socialism as the end of the world. The irony would be hilarious if that level of ignorance weren’t just plain dangerous.
That said, same way we’ve smurfed up democracy and capitalism, we’re smurfing up socialism. We could be doing worse, but we could be doing a lot better too. But we won’t because, to your point, the capitalists have all these dummies convinced that the “transfer of wealth” from rich to poor will ruin the country. As if the transfer of wealth from middle class to rich isn’t already doing that. Most voters are Pavlov’s dogs and the banks have them perfectly trained.
How many people who actually owe taxes instead of getting a tax return vote fir socialism? There is a huge segment of the population in the middle of the economic spectrum who bear almost the entire cost of socialism and either dont vote for it or aren’t paying attention. It’s only the people at the very top who would end up owning their factories after a revolution anyways just like the Soviet oligarchs or the people who are at the bottom end who don’t pay anything in taxes so it doesn’t effect them either way that want socialism.
I support those things because I have empathy for others. I understand that my comfort is almost entirely due to luck. I was born with an ability that happens to be in demand today, and consequently I am well-paid. Others are not as fortunate, but their lives shouldn't be a miserable struggle. I want to live in a country where everyone's basic needs are met. The US has almost the highest per capita GDP in the world, and we can easily afford to take care of everyone here.
Besides, anyone's luck could change tomorrow. I could be injured, lose my job and be unable to find another.
Don't be silly as that is not what "socialism" is.
Americans have a fucked up interpretation of everything. Mainly as English is their second language in many regards. Even then, they speak a dialect and not proper British English anyway.
Socialism comes with many brands and variants. It is basically the premise that in nearly every system the "worker" makes up a majority of the system. Therefore is the most important part to look after.
Things like healthcare insurance and minimum wage are capitalisms take to justify paying workers less than they are due. It's why America is a terrible place to work if you are lower than management. Modern America endorses slavery, via 13th amendment outsourcing, and maintaining the working poor classes.
What you actually mean is "public funded healthcare" rather than "free health", and what you mean is "living wage" rather than "minimum wage".
Of course! The have not’s think the have’s have obtained through privilege, not hard work.
I support sterilizing these people and eliminating their genes from the gene pool. We already import enough lazy and uneducated people with illegal immigration, we don’t need our own.
You are telling it like it is. However, I doubt sterilizing would even be implemented, nor would it be a workable solution because you can't changed human DNA in only 2 or 3 generations. You can in 50 generations and have a major effect in ten generations but that is too far into the future. However, we could fail to support them. Then they either learn to work or die and if they die, they don't breed. Like this Black welfare mother with 15 kids who said, "Somebody Needs to Pay for all my Children!"
www.bing.com/.../search
I say that tongue in cheek. I greatly enjoy sarcasm, dark humor and dry humor. Certainly I don’t support actually sterilizing people.
As for the black mother, this time I’m serious. He children should be stripped from her and given to able parents. Since she chose to create life without the means to provide for it she is an unfit parent and an abuser. She should be jailed accordingly. Her right to have children doesn’t outweigh our right to not pay for them.
That black woman and her 15 children is an example of why I have mixed emotions about how much support we should give hungry people. I don't like to see anyone going hungry. However, I also know the more you support feeding the hungry, they more hungry you get and eventually the system of support becomes so overloaded that it breaks down. Then the numbers of starving people is greater than if you had never helped. I think Africa might be an example.
Agreed. I turn to the Bible for guidance. In it I find this:
“For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.”
2 Thessalonians 3:10 KJV
To me that makes it simple. Can the person work or are they physically disabled or is there some reason they cannot work? A legit reason? Then give them charity.
However if the case is that they are lazy or just want handouts, let them starve. When they get hungry enough they’ll get that lazy ass a job and with it the money to feed their stomachs.
Frankly these people should be warned that if they have children while on welfare they are not getting additional money, and seeing as often there are multiple generations of families on welfare that would be fitting. However, we don’t do that. Instead we enable the chronically lazy and scam artists.
So, if we stick to what scripture says, it makes it simple. Give to the hungry who cannot otherwise feed themselves and to those who can work but won’t, let them go hungry.
I dont think you have any comprehension at all of the system that we live in.
There is no relationship what so ever between what services are provided by the government and what taxes you pay.
None at all.
I realise you find that difficult to understand, because it makes no sense at all and clearly should be that way, but it is that way.
I get it, you think you have a few more beans than the next guy, you think you matter, you dont, you are a fucking peasant, just like everyone else.
If you can get this fucking hideous machine to pay out anything of any kind to a human being that doesn't have their face on the money or some similar level of power that is a win.
The only war is the class war.
If we ever get to a point where the system functions in a coherant manner or does anything close to what its supposed to do, we could have a sensible conversation about it and your ideas might have some validity, but that is not on the horizon.
Are you familiar with Stefan Molyneux? I think you and him would get along famously. Canadian anarchist philosopher that I’ve been listening to a lot lately.
@Sixgunsound Yeah, I know Molyneux
@kelleynice
Im sorry but you really dont understand anything about anything.
You seem to be under the impression that there are only a handful of different systems or perhaps only 2.
In reality there are an infinite amount of ways in which you could create a system.
The US is not a capitalist country, if it were then there would have been no bailouts for the bankers in 2008 for example, you wouldn't have any kind of social programs and clearly you do.
No one uses a purely capitalist system and very few if any use a purely communist system either, everyone uses systems which are somewhere in the vast space between these extremes.
You would do well to familiarise yourself with the political compass and start thinking about systems as they are plotted on 2 axis rather than one, this is a fundamental requirement to even begin comparing one system to another but even then you are only looking at very broad strokes and once you look at the finer details of 2 systems which are plotted in the same positions on such a graph you will find that even these seemingly very similiar systems are in reality radicially different.
If you knew any of this and were being honest you would know how absurd your arguments are.
@Guffrus Obviously you don't know what socialism is. To learn what a socialist paradise is, read Yeonmi Park's book "In Order to Live A North Korean Girl's Journey to Freedom." Yeonmi Park's was born in 1993 and left North Korea with her mother at age 13. Or listen to any of her YouTube videos.
Evidently I have a better idea than you do.
If you look up a definition it will probably tell you something like a system where the means of production are for the most part owned collectively.
This definition clearly is not the one you are using, you are using the term to refer to some aspect of the running of a country where the costs are 'socialised' as per your example of healthcare.
You are under the impression that America does not socialise the costs of anything but of course it socialises many costs, mostly those which are of use to big business, such as military spending which is then used to invade other countries or the secret service which overthrows governments in order to install puppet governments which will act favourably to business interests etc.
Or the socialisation of the costs resulting from the banking crisis of 2008.
As I have already tried to explain to you, there are literally infinite possible systems, looking at one example of a system does not define how some other system which is broad catagorised with the same term must be.
No one is saying North Korea isn't a shitty place to be, but its not a shitty place to be because costs are socialised, its a shitty place to be because it is an authoritarian police state where you get disppeared for not loving the leader enough.
If you are not willing or not capable of grasping this extremely simple premise then you should just abandon this topic altogether, maybe it isn't for you.
No, I don't think so. I make quite a bit of money and I can see the appeal of wanting to help people living a decent life. Seeing the people around you without worries makes life a bit better.
I'm not very political, but I'd still rather see people smile and dance than cry in pain.
Talk is cheap. Like all the Walmart shoppers they were for higher wages but not if they have to pay.
Asking some companies to raise the minimum wage is NOT socialism in other 1st world countries it is a living wage it’s immoral to pay people a wage that they can’t afford to live in. I make much more than minimum wage but I process a conscious.
As for social health, it would transform the way the whole healthcare system works. Right now everything is for profit and anyone suffering from cancer usually goes bankrupt trying to get life saving treatments. i don’t know if I believe in social programs for everything as a whole
No, it's because inequality has exploded since the 1970s and most people have realized that the American dream is out of their reach.
Socialism is just having a collective conscience and concern for your fellows. As for who pays, in Canada one generally pays in for years before needing any help for themselves. It's there when people stumble and does what it's supposed to, provide a safety net so that good people aren't lost to bad circumstances.
Unfortunately I find that a lot of Americans have trouble separating economic and humanitarian democratic socialism from the insane braying of the woke left hard Marxists.
The hard left has gone mad in the US and have implemented a strange kind of corporate fascism based on cultural Marxism and a hypocritical capitalistic olicharcy.
The levels of cognitive dissonance required is absolutely mind boggling.
I don’t think socialism means quite what you think it does.
Germany first instituted free, universal health in the 1800s under Otto von Bismarck’s leadership, von Bismarck was an arch-conservative and strident supporter of the German monarchy, the Prussian aristocracy, and Lutheranism as the official state-religion.
The minimum-wage assumes a capitalist economy as complete give-in and simply seeks to mitigate the harsher aspects of the economic system (capitalism) whose existence it completely takes for granted.
Also, socialism has rather large variety of meanings as most “isms” do. And I’m positive the vast majority people who think of themselves as socialists or who vote for parties calling themselves socialist unreservedly reject North Korea as an abomination. It’s also very possible if not likely that North Korea doesn’t even consider it socialist (anymore).
@Robbey Re: North Korea doesn’t even consider it socialist (anymore).
That is proof that you don't know what you are talking about and are just talking off the top of your head.
Yeonmi Park was born in 1993 and left North Korea with her mother at age 13 in her book "In Order to Live A North Korean Girl's Journey to Freedom" and in many of her talks and discussions such as her interview with JordanPeterson (https://www. youtube. com/watch? v=8yqa-SdJtT4&t=5416s) stated that North Koreans are taught they live in a Socialist Paradise.
No thoughts on von Bismarck, minimum wage, or “isms” typically being highly diverse? That’s unfortunate since it’s the part of my post that actually related directly to yours. North Korea was a bit of an afterthought.
Anyway. Are you familiar with Juche, North Korea’s official state ideology? An ideology which has largely (though in fairness, not quite entirely i. e. historical materialism) rejected socialism in favor of its own idiosyncrasies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche
You're completely delusional.
We have all the things you listed in France and we're stil a capitalist country, free healthcare, etc... is a great things to cause it lower poverty and protect people. not having mean you're a slave to your job / boss.
Obviously, you don't know what socialism is. Read Yeonmi Park's book, "In Order to Live" or watch her YouTube video (Escaping from North Korea in search of freedom Yeonmi Park One Young), viewed 4.4 million times to learn what a socialist paradise is.
Everyone pays and everyone benefits from it.
Jeff Bezos Kids would also be able to go to college for free* or go to the doctors for free*, just like the kids from the single mom next door or.
*free or "tax payer founded" as some people are always pointing out.
Their health problems sounds more like a personal problem and nothing in this world are free. Everyone has to work for earning and even those working in the health care. No I don't support socialism because everybody has their own responsibilities and if you think those big companies are just too privileged that they should give people free benefits then you'll have to realize what sufferings they have the face to start their company. They worked hard their privilege and people should do
And people should *too
Free healthcare and a minimum wage aren't "socialism" though; they're just what civilised societies do, because no one should be left to die on the street simply because they can't afford the exorbitant cost of healthcare. At least you didn't say that gun control was socialism as well.
@Cubus
Stop with your absolutism about waiting for surgery. Everything has to be planned and prioritized, everywhere. If you need a lifesaving surgery tomorrow, you will get it here tomorrow. That’s why doctors get paid overtime, like everybody else. And an ICU in Germany is run exactly like an ICU in the United States.
@DryGermanGuy "If you need a lifesaving surgery tomorrow, you will get it here tomorrow"
Mother of my friend had to wait 6 months to have cancer-removal operation in public healthcare.
It’s hard to judge from a few individual cases. Generally speaking where people work, there happen mistakes, bad planning and clerical errors. But that happens everywhere, that’s why medical malpractice lawyers are a big thing in the United States.
Your question only makes sense if we ignore first world socialist countries lol.
First of all, healthcare is a fucking right. If we're going to pull our resources together then why are we giving Exxon Mobil money while we are letting people fucking die? Why are we bailing out banks and corporations while letting citizens die?
Without labor laws young boys your age would be working in coal mines for next to nothing. The 40-hour work week would not be a thing, weekends would not be a thing and you not get overtime or pay time off. You should be very thankful for these ideas that were considered radically left at the time.
@Shamalien he believes in socialism and big government.
@Shamalien I can't believe you can say that with a straight face while ignoring how much is given to corporations for free. I guess it's only socialism when it helps the common man huh?
@Shamalien actually I am entitled to your labor. Your labor pays for the police, fire departments, my roads, my schools and so on. If you don't pay taxes then you will be held at gunpoint by the government, have fun with that!
@Juxtapose I don’t support that either
@Juxtapose no you aren’t entitled to it, you’re holding me at gunpoint for it, as you said, you’re a theif
@Juxtapose the world has been taken over by satanic cunts like you and someday you will pay
LoL at Sham here the supposedly God fearing man who would deny his neighbor medical attention and is in favour of child labor.
The fact that you can't spell the word should proves my point about child labor. Also it's taxation not theft you goon.
@Shamalien if you don't like it go live off the grid and stop using shit society has collectively paid for such as roads, the police, etc.
Exactly. Don't these two understand that the taxes they like to grumble so much about, benefit them as well? Roads, police, hospitals, garbage removal, fire, and other services without which society would collapse are paid for by all of us together, which is how it should be. Healthcare IS a right Shamalien!
@Shamalien Theft? Was I talking about theft? No. "IDGAF what any man-made law says..." - Well, WHAT OTHER KINDS ARE THERE?
@Snsl153 god’s law. The law of the universe. The law that says theft is wrong. And how do you plan to fund universal healthcare? By asking politely for 30k of my 100k salary? No, you want the government to forcefully confiscate it from me, and if I don’t comply I get hauled off to prison at gunpoint.
You’re evil and you don’t even know it
Taxes are evil? You wouldn't know evil if it bit you on the ass mr false piety.
How would you propose to pay for roads then or space exploration or the military? You're a nutcase.
Without taxes you can't have a functioning government. So what you want rule by corporations? Think that would be better?
I'll insult you if I like, your ideas are simplistic beyond belief.
I just asked you a question. Do you want corporate rule? Because that's the alternative.
@Shamalien "God's law..." - Okay, you just lost ALL credibility when you said that. Good bye!
I think free healthcare and free schooling would be great and I would rather pay higher taxes then have those things. Taxes might add up more but I wouldn't have crippling debt.
I don't know if animal care would be included in free healthcare but like my pet hedgehog got a uterous infection, and that costed like 1000 dollars or more for just xrays and scans and prescriptions. I would rather pay higher taxes
You know that public healthcare is worse quality than private. In public healthcare it takes a few months to have an operation.
In countries with universal healthcare most people just prefer to spend more money (so actually pay twice) and go private, because this is ALWAYS much quicker.
@Cubus Couldnt we get to a point where there is enough quantity of healthcare available and have it be high enough quality to have fast and affordable care. I mean I would rather spend more money on that then let the poor just die. The uber rich just have so much money that could be spent on better things than their luxuries and put into the market.
that is what socialism is. Spending other people's money until it runs out. Then the shooting starts.
This is exactly what Public School education gets you... The Left have come a long way in charge of Schools, Government, Business...
Obviously that is true. The fools believe the rich have the ability to pay for everything. Like the video shows, people would not support socialism if they have to pay.
I would be fine with paying, I just think people who have Billions and billions of dollars should pay more
That video shows how socialist actually are. They only want someone else to pay.
Who told you North Korea is a socialist paradise? That is like saying Nazi Germany was a capitalist paradise.
@Stoner710 you are from the US aren't you. Only there they make that brainwashing.
@Stoner710 they hate socialism there. Why do you think they still have the embargo in Cuba? Why did they attacked Chile when they had a socialist president?
Considering we used to hate socialism and communism and not surprised today the Democrat party loves it they’ve Embraced it. They think that Maduros idea of governance is the best in the world they try to deny it but the entire Democrat party embraces it at least the ones in charge and in the media
@Stoner710 I am socialist and I don't think Maduro is the best idea of socialism. I look at North European countries for that. Social democracies and the best places in the world to live in.
By the way did you know that Venezuela economy was in the trash before Chavez took over? He was elected because he was a military party and the people wanted to try something different because the right wing wasn't doing it. The previous party didn't diversified their economy. Made the country to dependant on oil. When the price crashed and the US got oil from other sources the hunger began.
Northern European countries aren’t socialist there more free market then the United States with higher social benefits and a lot higher taxes. Also people from Northern European countries come to the United States and do better then they did in there home countries,
Maduro is the natural our come of socialism. A lot of people like to claim the USSR and China and North Korea are communist. But when you read the communist manifesto you’ll see that true communism has the government steps down after the socialist process. Why do you think the USSR start for the United slavic socialist republic. Venezuela Cuba China Yugoslavia Laos Cambodia and Vietnam where are different versions of of socialism from Leninism to Trotskyite’s Maoism and Stalinism. Not to mention you had the German socialist workers party that decided to launch a world war and try to wipe out an entire race off people. It’s pretty natural for socialism to take a nasty turn for the brutal and starvation. Left wing government never turn out well.
@Stoner710 yes they are socialists. They have high taxes, free education, free healthcare, very strong syndicates, social aid, etc.
I am sure they do better, educated people who already have money are week received in the US. Low income people whitout education are not. Not even born citizens from low income the treat so well. The American dream is a joke, in a ranking of countries where a person is more likely to get out of poverty the US came in 17th.
Like you said there are many counties with many versions of socialism. So no Maduro is not the natural outcome of socialism. He has a military party, Portugal has a socialist party and it's very very different from him. That is like saying Saudi Arabia is the natural come of capitalism.
You are right that the communist manifesto is very different from the communist regimes that we had over history. It was actually never attempted. And in today's economy where capitalism rules it never will because it will never be allowed to work. Just look at Chile. Recently they elected a socialist party in a long long time and he is not bring able to do any reforms because the system is not letting him.
@Stoner710 oh right and Germany party that killed so many was extreme right leaning, aka fascism. The opposite of socialism. Also you had others in Portugal, Spain and Italy.
To learn all about how North Korea is a socialist paradise, listen to Yeonmi Park Jordan Peterson interview www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yqa-SdJtT4&t=1887s
@kelleynice I know I’ve read in order to live
@This_Is_My_Opinion8 The Swedes Nords and the Dans aren’t socialist foreignpolicy.com/.../
Stalinism trotskyism Leninism Maoism are all different forms of socialism Chile had a civil war in order to destroy there socialist government back in the 70s because there people were starving and eating dogs much like what is happening in Venezuela right now. Poverty starvation and murdering dissidents is a common outcome of left wing governments. Every time I point this out left wingers and socialist say well that’s because that wasn’t true socialism and true socialism has never been tried. Which is kind of a selfish Arrogant thing to say because you are basically suggesting that you could run a pure socialist government better and if we put you in charge you could do better the reality is you can’t because no one can. This is why a limited government is the only way to go you need to be incredibly authoritarian when it comes to the people who run the country if a Politician lies you put them in prison for the rest of there lives and torture them Ramsey Bolton style and your libertarian to the citizens and let them do what they need to do to be successful. One of the best president was Calvin Coolidge because he basically sat on his ass and did nothing while the American economy boomed. The Great Depression would have been just a 6 month to a year and we could have recovered if the federal government did nothing and let people work out the economy for its self. Government sucks at everything it tries to do.
@Stoner710 it's always the same argument. Those are not "socialist countries", "ok so can we have what they have? You know since they are a right wing county too. You know like free education, social support, etc" "no! That's socialism." Always the same. All the things that make those countries the best ones to live are the things that are insulted as socialist in others.
Oh you mean when the US went to Chile and took down the government because they didn't like a socialist regime so close to them? Nah! I am sure the US did it just out of kindness...
Not only that, but Chile right wing never did anything of good for the country ever since.
Finally, go see Venezuela history. The current socialist government is only in duty less than 20 years. Yet they are to blame for the state of the country? And then you say that capitalism doesn't brainwash people against socialism.
The right wing party that used to rule Venezuela was the responsible for relying to much on oil to hold the economy. Didn't diversified it. Today they are still feeling the results of that big mistake made not that long ago.
Jordan Peterson? The pseudo intelectual that couldn't be more bias? Please.
Jordan Pearson has probably won the wisest men that is currently living Abonado with in the history of the planet. He has degrees in philosophy psychology and history why shouldn’t I trust this expert. If you want a Pseudo intellectual try Robin D’Angelo Karl Marx or Ibram X Kennedy
@Stoner710 not going to address the mess that the US did in Chile? Or didn't you even read my response? Not that history is up for debate, but it's not surprising that they don't teach about American imperialism in American schools.
About Peterson, the same guy that broke down in tears because people were being cautious about climate change? That guy? The most wise? Then we are all doomed!
I did read your response you said a right wing government never did anything good for Chile, I’m saying a left wing government has never done anything good for any country ever. Chile will be making a mistake if they go to. Left wing government people are murdered by the government in a left wing society. Not to mention they starve to death in left wing governments. The kill count in the Great Leap Forward in socialist China was 45 million almost 2.5 times the population of Chile which is about 20 million. America was never an imperialist nation we never went to other countries to subjugate the population there have been 2 nations we left in worse shape before we started because Americans don’t have the stomach to be an imperialist nation. End of ww1 we tried helping Germany rebuild. Wilson never went to congress to get approval for The League of Nations which is why it failed. We rebuilt western Germany after ww2 which is why west Germany is a lot better off now then eastern Germany we rebuilt Japan after bombing them into oblivion because they were imperialist who wanted to “unite the yellow race” we rebuilt South Korea after the Korean War. Now they produce cars computers and hot pop girls unlike there counter parts socialist North Korea where people are starving they learn about “the Americans being bastards”. And sell there women to be sex slaves In socialist China.
And yes the guy giving the interview to Yeonmi Park the video Kelly shared is one of the wises among us. Not gnome Chomsky who is one of the stupidest among us not Sam Harris who is now openly saying that we need to hide information from the public because trump is so how the greatest threat to the world. Not the racist Ibram X Kennedy or Robin DiAngelo not Howard Zinn. People like Jorden Peterson Joe Rogen Candice Owens Ben Shapiro Tim Scott Ron DeSantis even a guy like Russell Brand who isn’t a right winger are the smartest among us. Even Putin and MBS are smarter then the dumb people I mentioned
@Stoner710 Not only did not did anything good, the man the that US left ruling Chile was Pinochet. One of the worst dictators in Latin America history.
I live in a left county. No one is killing people. European countries have many left ruling governments right now including France. Who is killing people? That statement that the left kills citizens is ridiculous.
Do you want a list of right wing counties that are killing people right now? I can start with Russia. Yes Putin's party is the Russian right wing.
If we are just going to point at what a left wing county did in the last I can easily point at Nazi Germany.
America was always an imperialist nation and still is.
"we never went to other countries to subjugate the population" that one actually made e laugh. From Hawaii to Puerto Rico. Not to mention actions like you did in Chile, Cuba and Vietnam. Your very genesis was about murdering the natives to take the land.
You think you rebuild Germany? You? That is precious. The Marshall Plan was not put in place until much later after the end of WW2 and it was mostly focused on fighting communism influence than rebuilding anything. Everything you did, from helping Japan to the allied countries was simply to serve your own interests. To secure influence and power. Case and point you knew we were at war and at first you did nothing. Until it began to affect your country too.
So that is a yes. A guy that cried, because people are worried about climate change, is the guy to follow. According to you? Got it...
The Nazis where left wing, Any government that wasn’t to seize power away from its citizens is a left-wing government. Right wing governments are small and very limited there not allowed to take over and regulate businesses there don’t limit speech, Putin may be right of the communist but he’s just as left as Hitler
You noticed we didn’t annex Cuba after the Spanish American war if he had then the left wing government in Cuba that murders its civilians if they say screw the Castros would never have existed and Cuba would be a lot better off. As far as Hawii goes we bought that from the British once we bought Hawaii Hawaii became a lot more free under the Americans. The natives you noticed where slaughtered when the American government started to become more left wing in the 1870s for the most part prior it was settlers going west because the population on the east coast was getting to full so they had no choice but to move west more opportunities for land money and the ability to start there own families. As far as Puerto Rico goes I don’t know much about Latin American history I mainly studied East Asian history. The reason why we went into Vietnam was to stop the communist from spreading into Vietnam we failed and millions were killed or had to flee in little boats to places like Thailand and Indonesia. Now we did be build Germany after ww2 why because we didn’t want then falling into the hand of the communist. People starved in eastern Germany because of the communist and thrived in western Germany because of free markets
Dictator are never right wing (at least to American standards). Right wingers that a small limited government where people have the freedom to say do and act they why they please. If someone wants to say Biden is Stalin or trump is Hitler there is no jail time for them. If someone in the UK posts something like “trans women aren’t women”. They get arrested for causing a disturbance online fee.org/.../ That is the type of activity left wing governments engages in. The United States is the most right wing government in the world and we’ve brought freedom and democracy to the world even the French the most liberal government in the world thinks the ways and traditions of the United States are borderline anarchist
@Stoner710 Fuck I had an answer written and I lost it. I don't want to write it all again so here are the main points.
- Fascism is right wing. That is a fact. Portugal, Spain, Chile, Italy and Germany had right wing dictatorships.
- Putin is a right wing to the left, but still not a communist.
- Small government or not is irrelevant. A small government can have total control even better since the idea of a dictatorship is to not have many in power in the first place. Now that's dictatorship!
- See the origin of right and left wing. The concept began in France and left wing was the faction fighting for power to the people. What is the opposite of that? Dictatorship.
- You didn't annex Cube because it would be very hypocritical to do so. See how Puerto Rico is today? Is it better with you? Or is the US leeching of it and not even letting them vote?
- Go see how Hawaiian citizens outside the tourist areas are doing.
- I went to check. The thanks giving massacre was in 1961. Much before what you claim.
- Considering how the countries you conquered are now good thing the US list the Vietnam war.
@Stoner710 - Ya you wanted to prevent the spread of communism, not to help anyone. Much less Germany.
- About the link. He was arrested for “malicious communication”. The definition being “relates to the sending of indecent, offensive or threatening letters, electronic communication or articles with the intent to cause the recipient distress or anxiety”. Which means deaths threats and other things are included. I bet that the article left something out. I bet that he didn't just said trans women are not women. Because social media is full of that sentence and no one else is getting arrested for it.
- You are not even top 10. Right wing is conservative and has a very small government. Therefore some countries like Saudi Arabia and even Ethiopia are more right wing than the US. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the US until a certain point in time. Considering how much capitalism uses it's labour force in profit of the elite few.
Fascism is left wing at least compared to American conservatives. Now I Will acknowledge there is a massive difference between European right and American right, not so much when it come to Europe left and American left the American left fallows more of the communist/socialist way of thinking. But fascism is left of the American right Portugal, Spain, Chile, Italy and Germany had right wing dictatorships. would be considered left wing to the American right which is conservatism liberalism has fail majorly it’s not natural out come of liberalism to butylate small boys and girls by either chopping there break off at age 12 or chocking there penises off at age 16. The natural conclusion to liberal ideology and leftist ideology for that matter if causing people to commit suicide and be miserable.
Now the British government violated that man’s freedom of speech and made up a crime “malicious communication” because he re-tweeted a meme, If a Society that has free speech he is perfectly allowed to say what ever he wants online or on the streets. I’m sure of I when to England and said trans people don’t exist because there only man and women and you can’t change your gender I would be arrested.
Also socialism and communism is slavery. The free markets (capitalism is a Marxist term). Is the only fair way of doing business. Socialism forces people to work and then when you become inconvenient for the system they kill you off. “To each according to his ability and to each according to his need”. But what happens if need is greater then your ability they stop giving you medication they stop treating you if a free market system your able to pay for your healthcare so you could live until 90 or 100 if a socialist system they just stop giving healthcare to the elderly so you are deemed a burden to the state and the kill you for it. Under left wing government everything has to be rationed because left-wing governments don’t produce goods they just consume.
@Stoner710 There is nothing more to the right than fascism my friend. It's extreme right. To call it more to the left than something is like asking to go more more north than the north pole.
American left is more communist than European left? Dude you have no left in the US. Not a proper one. You live in a capitalist system. While that is true you will never have a real left. Your left is not the democrats, your left is Bernie Sanders. Other than that you have no real left.
Again, nothing is more right wing than fascism.
No liberal wants children to chop of their genitals. That is a strawman falacy. We want trans people to have basic rights. That is it. Nothing more, nothing less. That is literally it.
Again, many people say that exact word on social media. "Trans women are not women". Social media is full of it. No one else is getting arrested over that. So don't lose it over am isolated case where clearly the guy did more than just write that sentence.
"Also socialism and communism is slavery."
I always fund it funny how the right wing thinks socialism or communism are slavery to the government, but don't realize that free markets make people slave to corporations! You want to know how capitalism grew? By worker exploitation. They say it took many people out of poverty by giving them jobs. Yes they got enslaved by their bosses who made absurd amounts of money in exchange for the worked lives. That's literally what the industrial revolution was.
Free market means bosses are free to do as they please. At the time when they could do that, they would control every single aspect of their workers lives. Even suing them if they missed a single day if work over a disease. Where is the freedom there?
Notice you didn't talked about Puerto Rico not being able to vote. They are under a dictatorship from the US no question.
As far as Puerto Rico goes I honestly think they should be their own independent nation. They have a completely different culture then the United States they speak a different language so I’m for Puerto Rican independence.
As far as fascism goes there only been 1 fascist country which was Italy Mussolini came up with the idea of fascism while he was working at Avanti! during ww1 which was a socialist news paper. It’s based off of socialism and the teaching of Karl Marx the founder of the Modern left. Fascism is a left leaning ideology. Remember the name of the nazi there were the socialist German workers party
Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei Hitler himself was left wing.
The idea that there isn’t a left wing party is the United States is a lie made up by AOC. The Democratic Party is the left leaning party in the United States they want to seize control of major businesses they have a bevy of Marxist base series like critical theory which is based off of critical theory gender theory and they want equal outcome instead of equal opportunity. The right in the United States supports free markets small and limited government with the ability to live our lives without government crack down on what we do through massive regulation and spending without telling us how much we have to pay people based on negotiation rather being forced to pay a minimum wage and of course no handout or subsidies.
The trans thing if Bob wants to dress up in a wig and be called sally no one cares but the left hasn’t lifted it there (no pun intended). They are taking away children from parents in my state if they refuse to give there 4 years old gender transitioning hormones they’ve given double mastectomy‘s to 12 year old girls they have cut the genitals out of little boys at the age of 16. Not to mention men can’t be women and women can’t be men a man can’t give birth and a women can’t get another women pregnant that’s not how biology works. You take skin from women’s arms and put in on there crotch and called it a penis. You leave gabbing wounds in the crotches of men that wants to close up so they have to go in every 6 months to get it redone at the same time when men use that gaping wound in the man’s body for sex imagine the bacteria that accumulates in there and vagina is a self cleaning origin a gaping wound is not gender denying care (which you call gender affirming). Is a human rights violation in its self
@Stoner710 So on Puerto Rico we agree. Now why don't the US let it be independent?
My country had a fascist dictatorship with Salazar. I am Portuguese. Spain had it too. Germany had Nazis that by definition were fascists. And like you said Italy had Mussolini.
Again, saying fascism is to the left is like saying 2+2= potato.
Yes it had socialist and workers in the name, didn't make it any less fascist. They called themselves fascist and they hated communism.
Go see the definition of fascism. Seriously you know nothing about this. Here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
Also:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
You know Bernie Sanders? That is a left leaning person.
Your liberals are more to the left yes. But compared to the rest of Europe they are far from it.
And I don't say this because AOC said it. I had no idea she had said that.
Equal opportunity or equal outcome, neither will ever exist in any county. That's literally impossible. To have the same opportunities everyone would have to be born on the same place, with the same parents, with the same amount of money, surrounded by the same opportunities, people and schools.
You don't want the government to meddle in your lives, but you let big corporations control every aspect of your life. That is already fine?
Give me a single news of a person getting arrested for not letting a 4 year old take hormones. Or a single case of a 12 year old making a transition surgery.
Those are very young ages and the ones that want the transition to be that soon do not represent what the left wants.
Gender dysphoria is a illness. It is. And so far the only thing that can cure it is transitioning. So if a person has a illness and can be totally cured with surgery... why not give it to them? We follow that logic for everything else.
yes those polls represent "ceiling values" or idealized results of polls that would not be true if people knew about the real more accurate portrayal of the idea
You Americans are really children who have never grown up, you think only in extremes.
I don't think it's just Americans, but the subset of people who only think in extremes is louder and more powerful there (probably because they're useful in helping the rich get richer).
Abortion should be illegal from the moment of fertilisation because killing a child during childbirth is wrong. Everyone should be allowed to carry a loaded gun anywhere they want because otherwise they'll take all the guns away. Democrats aren't just wrong, they're evil and civil war is justified.
Regarding civil war, a recent poll found that over 50% of Americans expect a civil war in the next few years, but that's probably because of the fewer than 25% that agreed with "Because things have gotten so far off track, true American patriots may have to resort to violence in order to save our country." (fortunately, "only" 8.1% more than "Somewhat agree").
theweek.com/.../poll-over-50-percent-of-americans-expect-a-civil-war-in-the-next-few-years
The state only creates problems not solve them and they are even responsible for the very issues they are begging them to fix.
Nope
Nope
The difference between north and South Korea is that North Korea has a dictator and South Korea has a president
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