MGTOW I'm sure you have heard of them too. I run across their post on bitchute. Are they valid? Do they have any verifiable points?

[SpokenTruth]

When I mention verifiable points I am talking about something that you yourself have verified something or things you yourself have looked into to verify to exclude the possibility of biased or popular opinion. I believe most of the answers that I have spotted anyway seem to be based on popular opinion. And what gives that away is that it is echoed from one to another which is the reason I am asking if you yourself have done the research yourself.

[inhua]

if you've been brought up a certain way to view the world through a woke lens i. e. male privilege, white supremacy, straight people are anti-LBGTQ etc. then the moment you start to think for yourself, you realize a lot of the woke stuff is pure bullshit designed to divide the population against one another.

if you fight back against wokeness you're either a white supremacist, racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, xenophobe, bigot, misogynist, incel, coon, sellout, sambo, uncle tom, aunt gemima, prude, pick me girl, TERF etc.

as far as MGTOW is concerned, their facts, stats, data and evidence is legit. the divorce statistics, marriage laws, family court laws, paternity test laws, dating app stats, police reports, reproductive rights, suicides, workplace fatalities, health stats and the general societal preferential treatment women get over men in the MeToo movement, fat acceptance movement, objectification protests, gender roles and life purpose, sexual interaction and gender dynamics etc.

because men have been dubbed the oppressor due to greater physicality and inability to get pregnant and women dubbed the victim in the western society's gynocentric social order, anything a man does is either disregarded or heavily scrutinized under the watchful eye unless he succeeds i. e. he has good looks, money, status. there's always a safety net for women that doesn't exist for men.

life is essentially a board game, let's say chess. one side has all their pieces and the other side has only the King and pawns. is it possible for the lesser side to win? sure. is it likely? not really. now for every inherited advantage say good looks, money, height, social status etc one has, the lesser side gains extra pieces i. e. the Queen, rooks, bishops and knights to even out the score.

women are on the side with all the pieces, men are on the side with the lesser pieces and let's say there's terrible consequences for the lesser side if they lose and there's no consequence for bowing out. yes the game is already rigged from the start so there's only a few options available.

1) play the game and hopefully not lose i. e. PUAs and fuckboys

2) demand the rules of the game be changed for fairness i. e. MRA's and incels

3) don't play the game at all or play it at a more convenient time i. e. MGTOW

option 1 requires a lot of luck, option 2 is a pipe dream and option 3 is the most sensible if you understand your limitations.

and in regards to the "oppressive patriarchy" women are responsible for upholding this because they've historically selected mates who are taller, stronger, wealthier, more confident, more competent etc than they are thus giving off the message that men should be on top. how many times have you heard the phrase from women that "men to do better". well when men do better, the end up being better than women and this how the patriarchy is upheld.

[Soteris]

... Do they even have any arguments? From what I have heard its mostly just misogyny and entitlement parading around as if they are the victims of some sort of social injustice orchestrated by women.

They simply do not want to participate in the normal society where both men and women have to make an effort to connect and form meaningful relationships. Furthermore they are upset that feminism has had success and improved equality for women which they believe comes at the cost of their own standing.

If anything, I think their argument is simply that women should be given to them by their parents and serve them faithfully like in "the old days". Truly the views of someone exceptionally spoiled and hateful.

But MGTOW as a whole is not that. This aspect just captures the suckers who gets tricked into believing it. The real reason this movement exists is because it is politically advantageous to people with power and ambition. They are the ones who created this and promotes it so that they can later use it for their own benefit. More specifically, its a reactionary movement intended to fight against feminism using a different approach after feminism defeated the previous status quo.

It is a continuation of the same conflict feminism was always fighting but under a different identity because they already lost once.

[SpokenTruth]

Yes but you say from what you have heard but is what you heard tried and true? How about something that you have verified yourself that you have done on your own something you have verified that isn't or hasn't been echoed somewhere else?

[grega239]

Sooo pointing out unfair treatement is misogyny?

[Soteris]

*shrugs* Its not like I have not been frustrated with dating and such myself. It is not inherently easy and in my experience its not something that SHOULD be easy. You need to put in the effort to build a literally lifelong relationship, its not something that can just be handed to you and chances are high that you will get burned over and over again. That is just the nature of relationships, sometimes they work out and sometimes they do not. We certainly could be better prepared for them theoretically but it does not change the process overall.

[grega239]

Dating?
This isn't about dating.

You brought up feminism. Ok. Feminism is (supposedly) about equality.

So answer me this:
Whos legally obligated to defend the country?
Genital mutilation is illegal to do on who?
Gender quotas and affirmative action programs to who?

[Soteris]

@grega239 Like it or not but dating is part of the foundation of the MGTOW movement where as feminism is more tangentially related unless you dig into the puppeteers behind it all.

As for who is legally obligated to defend the country? Assuming you mean the draft then men. However, this is an obsolete system not intended to be used in its current state. If the government intended to trigger a new draft they would first rewrite it to include women as well. Basically, USA has transitioned into a fully professional army so systems like the draft is no longer needed and only exist in some dusty old book from way back when.

Importantly however, and something that is very relevant to this conversation. The main proponents of both abolishing the draft completely as well as include women into the draft is spearheaded by feminists (depending on if they are pro or anti war). So this is not a good example really since the feminist position is for equal treatment to the draft, be it inclusion or total abolishment where as the traditional position AKA the anti-feminist position is to limit it to men only.

As for genital mutilation? Feminism is nominally against any form of genital mutilation on any gender however it is an entrenched social position that is difficult to get any traction on. Be it slowly but it looks like feminists and other people on the left wing of the political spectrum will eventually manage to ban it completely but its probably going to take at least a decade or more. Again, anti-feminists are supportive of circumcision for men, especially those associated with Christianity and other Abraham religions.

As for gender quotas and affirmative action programs? Dont know, dont care. Considering they are intended to specifically target a problem in society it does however make perfect sense to use gender as one of the criteria to make sure the policy or program has the intended effect.

[grega239]

You have completely failed to answer.

Feminists somehow managedto get the vote but not the draft (obsolete or not)

Only boys are sliced

Quotas and affirmative action is legalizesld gender discrimination.

These are only a few examples.

This is not equality whic is the point of mgtow.

You are talking about incels

[Soteris]

@grega239 I completely answered your questions, even to the point of correcting them where what wanted to know did not correlate with what you asked. You just did not like my answers.

Ill answer it again for you. The draft is not a relevant part of your legislation. It is a legacy law just like a million other stupid laws that are no longer enforced or used but are still TECHNICALLY in the books. The draft itself is also generally re-written every time it is triggered so that the government can specify what capability and quantity they require so a previous draft means very little even if USA had not officially transitioned away from conscription all together already.

But that is besides the point. The ONLY group that I know of that is ACTIVELY working to change the draft so that it is equal for both men and women is feminists and even then they are split between equal representation or outright abolishing it at which point you can't be surprised that a conflicted minority can't strong arm the entire government to change a legislation that literally does not mean anything and would be rewritten AGAIN if it ever needed to be used anyways. It is a complete waste of EVERYONES time.

"Only boys are sliced" and only feminists and left wing groups are against it.

Quotas and affirmative action is by definition NOT gender discrimination, and I have told you as much.

Those might just be a few examples but literally every other example people have presented to me regarding MGTOW falls apart just the same. There is nothing of substance there, only misunderstanding, hatred and entitlements.

[grega239]

Wrong.
When feminists marched for voting rights, nany women opposed it because it came with the obligation of being drafted.

Its also funny that they got the vote but somehiw failed to get the draft.

They are doing nothing to ban circumcision. I know this because slovenia didn't need feminists to make it illegal for everyone. Muslims, for example, who live here have to go to a different country to butcher their child.

Gender quotas and affirmative action are legal discrimination against men because it gives women the ability to "cut in line" just because they are female.

Try again

[SpokenTruth]

@Soteris You pointed out the draft as if it's obsolete. Young men in the US are required as soon as they hit eighteen to register with selective services, or else. If they fail to register they face jail time along with heavy fines and the loss of privileges if you can find any to list. Also how about the Ukraine? The Ukraine from what I gather has also decided to copy the west and dip into feminism. And from what I have heard their men were forced to stay there and fight while their women left.

That doesn't sound like equality to me does it to you? That sounds much like the west aka female privileges. You are picking the winners and ignoring the scoreboard. That is why I pointed out in the question have you done the actual research yourself not echoing what you have been told.

[Soteris]

Yes. It is thoroughly obsolete. USA today has a professional army, its greatest strength is specifically that they do NOT use conscription to draft average people but instead only relies on professional soldiers. This both makes them more competent but also solves an age old problem USA has had, unwilling fighters. In other words, conscription goes counter to current US policy and using it will actively weaken and corrupt the army itself. Conscription, in its current form is therefore absolutely and totally obsolete even though the functions of it is still kept in the books and are maintained such as the selective service program. As such, USA will not fucking use conscription under any circumstances outside perhaps a direct invasion on the US mainland.

As for Ukraine, its still a regressive country by western countries. Just the fact that they WANT to become more western does not magically mean that they HAVE. Especially when they got interrupted in their progression by literal invasions. As for men being forced to stay and fight, that is only partially true. Plenty of people have managed to leave but more importantly, there are too many volunteers for the military and militia that they can't even train them all and has not had to go out and force anyone to fight as of yet.

Of course, its not equality but no one has claimed that Ukraine is a progressive country aside from perhaps you.

Its also quite funny how you claim that western countries "AKA female privilege" is indicated by policies such as these when they are the standard in every country that is NOT feminist. The tradition of men protecting women in a war is not a feminist idea and is just "how things have worked" historically.

[SpokenTruth]

7777777

[SpokenTruth]

As I stated. You don't go back the facts. Put selective service in your search engine as see what that is for and who does and does not have to register for that.

And no it's not obsolete either it is only currently in neutral and selective services proves that it's not. There is no other purpose or need for selective services. And they still require registering for young men as soon as they turn eighteen.

I don't have my age hidden you can clearly see that on my profile. I have been around a lot longer than you have and I have lived in the country subject to the discussion we are having my entire life. And I can tell you that the women here have privileges that are off the charts and men here are treated like and looked at like animals. I would not tell you that if it were not true. Why do you think I never married or had children? Do you think avoiding the things that most men dream of from their childhood on including myself was something I would have skipped out on deliberately without cause?

[Soteris]

I have provided plenty of supporting facts. Again, you just dont like them.

For example, the selective service program still exists.. kinda.. but it is no longer used. Furthermore, it is very likely unconstitutional because the only defense for an all male conscription was that women were not allowed to serve in the military at the time which is no longer true.

And since you are banging on about me providing any facts ill just do you the favor of including that supreme court decision here:
Rostker v. Goldberg, 453 U. S. 57 (1981) : supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/453/57/

In other words, if the US government ever wanted to try use another draft they would immediately be dragged to the supreme court and have to amend the conscription laws to equally allow women. But they won't, because conscription is obsolete. The government even made an official statement about it in "five years of all volunteer force 1973-1978" which you can read online.

Since then (1973) there has been zero drafts at which point the selective service program is completely useless, and as I said previously, unconstitutional. As such, if they ever wanted to use the draft again they would rewrite the laws surrounding the draft, as is normal to do, as I have told you multiple times previously, which would include women this time, which I have also told you multiple times.

[Soteris]

Quite frankly, you dont seam to understand what the draft is. The draft is like a grocery list you write before you go shopping. You might still have your previous one somewhere next time you go to shop but its not very useful since its not going to list what you want today and as such you have to rewrite it to fit what you have planned to eat and use over the next period. As such, I can't for the life of me understand why you are so caught up on the remnants of previous drafts since they are not relevant today and in the event USA needs a new draft then they will be re-written and updated to for example include women. DO YOU GET IT NOW?

As for you feeling women are privileged or not, dont care. That is your opinion. Same with why you have not formed a permanent relationship. Those are your personal problems.

Look. Relationships are hard work and having to expose yourself to trust in them is scary. It is also why strong relationships are so wonderful and enduring, because so much effort and trust went into it from both partners to form something beautiful. The only way you can get there is by putting in the effort and exposing yourself to get hurt again and again. You are not entitled to success, you have to earn it like everyone else and until you actually do it you will just keep being jealous of other peoples success.

[SpokenTruth]

Since I can't post links yet you will have to fix the link to make it work. Remove the brackes () from around the spaces and remove the spaces between the periods and there you go.

americanhomefront (.) wunc (.) org/news/2021-12-14/despite-a-defeat-in-congress-advocates-say-theyll-keep-pushing-for-women-to-register-for-the-draft

[Soteris]

Well, would you look at that? An article that confirms what I have been saying all along. Thank you for your kind contribution to this conversation.

[Minxxie]

Based, and yeah they are angry that they are actually expected to develop their relational skills and make themselves an attractive life partner. They are angry that great-granddaddy just got to basically purchase his wife from her father and she had to accept him as he was, even if he was a terrible human being. The thing they don't realize is that being pushed to improve yourself is rarely a bad thing!

[Minxxie]

This is exactly it, relationships take work and that's just reality. I find that a lot of these men who complain the loudest about how hard dating is also struggle to maintain platonic friendships long-term as well. As soon as they quit their job and start a new position they don't know how to maintain the friendships they had with their old work buddies and that loneliness gets entirely projected onto women. Male friendships need to be valued more. Men need to hug their damn friends!!

[Soteris]

@Minxxie Its such a messed up situation I swear. Like for example, whos bright idea was it that men should avoid spending time and money to look presentable in the same way as women are making an effort? It makes no sense that men are not using stuff like makeup on a regular basis.

[Minxxie]

They rarely if ever actually leave women alone and go their own damn way.

It was too good to be true! :(

[SpokenTruth]

I read something along those lines not that long ago. But the question is this. If they don't go around or want to be around women etc, how is it they are bothering women? That is something I would like to know. Do you have anything as evidence something to substantiate that? Putting it in the links I would like to see that.

[grega239]

Look up some government statistics and you'll figure out their points

[SpokenTruth]

There is actually no need on my behalf. I am a he and at a mere glance things they just stuck out to me being very obvious. The taking down of the Patriarchy for one. Do they even realize what the Patriarchy is? The Patriarchy is God's order it wasn't designed by man himself. So what that amounts to is going against God's order. I would really like to see people think for themselves and not be steered into others thinking for them. What becomes obvious to me is that there seems to be a push to take away God's order and apparently they are perfectly willing to throw men under the bus in order to get it done re victimizing the same victims over and over again instead of acknowledging there is something way off something very wrong. And something broken will never go back together again when it's broken. I don't think I have to tell you that much I think we both know the truth in that.

[Anonymous]

https://www.youtube.com/@undeadchronicxiv4189/videos