Do you agree with representative Sheila Jackson Lee that guns don’t kill people, people kill people?

[Chazmatazz269]

Lee espoused forgiveness and leniency for terrorist Viktor Bout in saying, “In actuality, his guns might have been used to kill Americans but he did not actually kill Americans.”. This is interesting since she voted in favor of the bill that allows gun crime victims to sue firearms manufacturers but NOT the criminals who actually commit gun crimes OR people who sell and distribute firearms illegally.
So, do you support this democrat and her convictions, or not?

[TheorionMage]

It may be trite BUT... I direct your awareness to the Beatles ballad: 'Maxwell's Silver Hammer'. The issue is... and will ALWAYS be... he/she who wields THAT hammer; ... how they got access and possession TO that hammer, ... WHO's hammer it was and holding THAT person materially culpable for leaving that hammer ACCESSIBLE as a culpable contributing "Accessory Before the Act".

There is only SO FAR in a free society that you can 'legislate' the SALE of hammers. Millions of manufactured hammers exist un-owned which in and of themselves ALONE, HARM no one. Culpability comes in the choice of WHAT/WHOM it's wielder elects to apply that 'force multiplier' upon/against... you can build a house or smash a skull.

[jshm2]

You're confused, and making shit up.

Viktor wasn't an American, keeping him was largely illegal anyway. Plus suing non Americans isn't possible under US law.

Also you cannot just sue willy nilly. It needs to be PROVEN in a court of law who sold what to whom. In 99% of cases of illegal firearms there are no serial numbers or provable supply claims, that will lead to a conviction.

At best you can sue the manufacturer for not making a more tamperproof device.

The USA got a 5 million dollar basketball player back, and exchanged him for a Russian they dubiously convicted to begin with.

[Chazmatazz269]

Someone is definitely confused but it’s not me. You don’t understand the law, let alone the world you live in. AB1594 is LAW in the US, dumbass. Take your willful ignorance elsewhere.

[SpringValley]

If the American prisoner released from the Russian prison was a white male, Shelia wouldn't have said this.

[purplepoppy]

People kill people, that doesn't mean we have to make it easy for them or give them the tools.

[SnowedIn]

Chaz it's true but the killing doesn't exist without each other. Without guns people would be killing lots less and without people those triggers wouldn't get pulled. One without the other is a straw man or post hoc ergo propter hoc argument.

[Chazmatazz269]

I think you misunderstand the meaning of “straw man”. Straw man is essentially an attempt to change the point, usually for lack of a relevant argument. If you think this is that, i strongly disagree. A democratic representative who supports disarming law abiding citizens while forgiving a terrorist who deals in actual weapons of war for the mass murder of US citizens is a hypocrite no matter how you slice it. The willful ignorance on this debate needs to end if we are to progress meaningfully.

[SnowedIn]

You are right and I was wrong. I mis-used straw man. And I agree with you - we need to progress meaningfully and civilly on this issue. I do think that what Representative Lee said about people is part of the debate but doesn't include the guns. Both guns and people need to be part of the discussion.

[NamerOfStars]

Would they be killing a lot less, though? Look at the UK- and by contrast, look at Switzerland. The lack of guns doesn't stop violence, and their presence doesn't prompt it. What guns do is make killing easier- granted that there would definitely be SOME drop in murders if guns were unavailable, since prospective murderers would figure it's not worth the trouble if it's that hard, but on the other hand, the common presence of guns is also a deterrent to crime- look at the rate of street crimes in general in, say, Chicago versus that in Dallas.

[SnowedIn]

I really like what you wrote: guns make killing easier. That right there.

[Chazmatazz269]

Switzerland is worth a look though. Despite having a similar rate of gun ownership to the US, their gun crime rates are much lower. We’re not talking about this in the US only because it defies popular unsupported rhetoric.
It’s also worth looking at Japan. Their firearms controls are far more restrictive than the US, but also far short of bans that literally only penalize law abiding citizens. They too have a great deal less gun violence and they excel at punishing criminals in ways the US fails.

[CAPTAIN-OBVIOUS]

Guns don’t kill people. People kill people.


Can be worded as…


Drugs don’t kill people. People kill people.


Yes, drugs and guns are bad for people.

[Chazmatazz269]

Not even close. You can compare and contrast the benefits and detractors of firearms and drugs, but those statements are neither equal, as you suggest, nor equivalent in the context within which you’re trying to make your point. Are you willing to ban every drug and imprison or execute every person who has ever developed, made, sold, bought or used a drug of any kind? Ever used aspirin? Then YOU are a criminal. You want to concede or try again?

[LiamJHayden]

Well in fairness she is one of the absolutely dumbest people to ever occupy elected office.

[msc545]

I agree. Triggers don't pull themselves.