Why did Scotland give up when Ireland kept fighting for independence, and at what point did Wales enter the chat?

[Sixgunsound]

I'm assuming there are at least a few people qualified to answer this on here.

[NamerOfStars]

They didn't. Scotland WON its independence- more than once, depending on where you draw certain lines. In fact, the first guy to rule both was a SCOTSMAN; arguably, England gained independence from THEM after the lines split again (since the two nations had different succession laws). What finally forced the two together was Scotland's ill-fated attempt to build what was basically an overland Panama canal two centuries early; it bankrupted a LOT of people, and England offered to absorb the country's debts if it agreed to unite with them and become Great Britain.

The Welsh also gained independence for a while, but England overran them again. Both it and Scotland have independence movements today, but they're purely political (with some cultural elements); the story of England in Ireland is far, FAR nastier than England in Scotland or in Wales.

See, the strength of Ireland is its weakness: the viking, the Norman, the Scotsman, the Spaniard, even the "bitter soldier of Cromwell"- all invaded Ireland, and all became Irish. Even the Englishman couldn't stay English- things didn't REALLY get bad until the absentee landlords, many of whom never even entered the country, began running things from a distance. But that badness ranks among the great atrocities of history, and culminated in the Great Famine. By the early nineteenth century, Ireland was totally subjugated, and the natives pushed into becoming ever more culturally English. They were also desperately poor, but Ireland (thanks to global weather conditions) was so damn fertile that the country could still sustain a huge population- eight million in 1840, when the population of the United States was only about twice that (remember that Ireland is about the size of Indiana). The Irish had little money, but enough food; potatoes, which can grow almost anywhere and feed a person completely (water and potatoes will supply you with literally everything you need to live, though you'll need a LOT of potatoes), grew abundantly after being introduced, and the people were fruitful and multiplied.

Then the blight came. A fungal blight struck Ireland's potato plants, and spread like wildfire. The people, able to afford nothing else, succumbed to starvation, malnutrition, and disease in MASS numbers. Many fled the country, seeking safety anywhere else; tens of thousands died being transported in what were literally repurposed slave ships (since that had been made illegal in the UK by then). By the end of the 1840's, the population of the country had fallen from eight million to less than three; about half of that was emigration, and half death. The population still hasn't recovered, almost two centuries later.

The famine was the death blow to Ireland EVER accepting English rule beyond gunpoint. Imagine watching your friends and family starve while your country was still exporting thousands of tons of food every day. Imaging having to tell your child to go into town, steal some food, and make sure they got caught- because if they were lucky, they might only get shipped off to Australia to live out their days in a place that still had food. If they weren't lucky, they'd be hung- but either way, the horrors of the famine would be over for them. The hell of it was that relatively little of the justification for such terrible oversight was malicious- there were some in England who thought the Irish worthy of nothing more than the agonizing deaths they were getting, but most of those in positions of power simply didn't care.

[Sixgunsound]

Thank you for taking the time to explain the situation. I had never heard almost any of this, and I went to a secondary school whose sports team name is "The Fighting Irish"

[purplepoppy]

The first thing I need to debunk is the idea that Scotland and Wales are owned by England. The people of both these countries freely vote in the election of the British prime minister and who sits in parliament on their behalf.


2 parties push for independence, the Scottish National party (SNP) and plaid Cymru. Even though the SNP does well in Scotland when it comes to independence referendums it has lost several times.


In the UK each sends its MPs to parliament to represent it. England being bigger with more regions and people makes up the majority (particularly London/south-east which has more people than Wales and Scotland combined).


As for independence, there's a general feeling across the UK that things are too biased in favour of London. This is also true in England. The Welsh and Scottish tend not to have a problem with the other regions. While we gripe about London there's little appetite to break up the united kingdom itself.


The sabre rattling tends to come when the UK as a whole isn't doing well or the PM is being a dickhead.


The big difference between Ireland and the other nations is the sea makes crossing the border expensive. You have thousands every day crossing the English welsh border in both directions to work, trade and play. Another is religion has always played a bigger part in Irish politics. Like it or not the welsh/English/Scottish are far more intertwined. Calls for independence based on events in the middle ages are frankly childish.


As a result acts of terrorism and violence tend to be rejected by the welsh and Scottish more vigorously than in Ireland. When they do occur they are heavily condemned.

People don't want independence because they don't want to lose the freedoms union brings. re-state://background_color_rgba (0, 0, 0, 0), font_color_rgb (77, 77, 77), justifyLeft

[Sixgunsound]

So how can the Prince of Wales be heir to the throne of England? I'm so confused. You have to forgive me I didn't grow up in that system.

[Anonymous]

Scotland didn't really quit. What happened was that the Scottish king became king of England after Elizabeth 1st died without an heir. Then England bailed out Scotland after it went broke after a failed colonial attempt in the Caribbean. Also Scotland was divided by religion so protestant England was a natural ally.

The first Irish rebellions were largely started by the Scottish when Robert the Bruce sent his brother over to fight the English in Ireland, thd Irish declared him king of Ireland. This rebellion was contested by the father of Robert the Bruce's wife who the English had in captivity. The rebellion ended in defeat due to famine and plague. I think that's mostly right.

Anyway if the Irish had been treated a little bit better right up until the time of the Irish troubles there would have been no rebellions.

[Sixgunsound]

In many ways Modern America is a consequence and continuation of the English Civil War. Oddly enough our own civil war was begun mainly By descendants of spare sons of English nobility trying to preserve their lifestyle of ruling over medieval serfdoms fighting against the descendants of East Anglian middle or working class members trying to preserve and expand the federal bureaucratic state to prevent themselves from becoming serfs again.

[Sixgunsound]

I'm probably not the only one who finds it. Effing hilarious that the East Anglian yankees are divided from the spare sons of the nobility by a huge population of Scots and Irishman at the Mason-Dixon line. There in the middle on this side of the pond too!

[Msputiton]

Idk🤔