If a fetus is living, and it is human, and it is innocent, why isn't abortion murder? Can't abortion supporters at least be honest?

[RingOfFire]

Don't get me wrong, I am just trying to understand the logic here. I personally think abortion should be mandatory. Especially for the political left since I know they love it so much and I like to please people. But why can't people just accept that it is murder and have to be dishonest about it. Are they just trying to assuage their own sense of guilt? If you are pro abortion, just accept that you are murdering a baby and that you are okay with that. At least you would come off as being honest even if some people see you as evil.

Is it not living? If not, what is it?

Is it not human? If not, what is it?

Is in not innocent? What could possibly be more innocent?

So why is abortion not murder?

[Thatpearl26]

Yup it is murder. First and foremost let’s talk about a very sensitive topic: miscarriages.

“baby who dies before 28 weeks of pregnancy is referred to as a miscarriage, and babies who die at or after 28 weeks are stillbirths”

From this piece of information we know that if you suffer a miscarriage then the baby dies. Which is just plain old logic. We recognize that the baby is lost and has died but yet when abortion happens most people refuse to acknowledge that the baby is killed. They like to believe that it wasn’t even alive just a “useless clump of cells”.
Article used for definition

If you would like to know more about miscarriages

[RingOfFire]

Very well stated! 👍

[Soteris]

Well, why dont we examine our values then shall we.

Lets say I cut off your finger. The finger will die. Was the finger living? Yes, it can die. Was the finger human? Yes, it is undeniably human. Is the finger innocent? What could possibly be more innocent than something without its own agency which can do no wrong?

These things are not what makes "murder" into murder. We are multi cellular organisms, life and death is part of our normal day to day operation and we have more non human genetics in ourselves than human because we are completely and utterly reliant on other things to live inside us to ensure we continue to survive.

So, what makes babies in the wombs so different? I mean, we can look at different parts of the development if you like but its not going to give you the answers you want. For example, the egg and the sperm. They are undoubtedly alive and human and innocent and whatever else. Do you commit mass genocide when you masturbate into a tissue paper? No, of course not. That would be ridiculous. What if the egg becomes fertilized.. why is it so special now? It is still just a cell that is alive and human and innocent or whatever.

What when it starts to divide itself? Why is it so special then? It is still just alive, human etc.. To make a long story short, my position is that we dont give a crap about life or even human life. We care about people. Therefore, until the new life develops into a person in their own right they are not considered "human" and therefore is just an extension of the mothers body.

The development into a person requires both a brain and a working mind. AKA it requires systematic brain activity. This is where pro choice advocates generally agrees to outlaw abortions unless it becomes medically necessary to save the mother. This is the only position that makes logical sense.

[Soteris]

Wait.. I read through some of your other replies. Did you just honestly say that you are against abortion unless it endangers the mother (fair enough) or if it was caused by incest or rape?

Wow.. That is some twist of logic that I can't even begin to understand. Did you just admit that you are perfectly fine with murdering children IF they were the result of rape or incest? I mean, my position is that they are not humans yet so there is no moral consequence to abort them but you dont think that, you honestly think they are a living human person but also think there is a moral right to kill them if they were created by rape or incest? Wow dude.. wow.. That is a hot take right there.

[RingOfFire]

No twist of logic at all except for people who only see issues in black and white.

Justice often involves offsetting rights. The question is which side has the more justifiable claim. In the case of rape, it is not at all a twist of logic to weigh the mother's right to not have to endure an involuntarily initiated pregnancy and birth if she chooses not to against the baby's right to be born and conclude that the former is the crueler of the two cruel options to inflict on the two innocent parties.

[Soteris]

As I said, one hell of a hot take. Good luck digging that hole!

[Anonymous]

It is human, it is living, and it is innocent and defenseless. So yes, it's clearly murder.

The irony is that it IS legally considered murder if anyone other than the mother kills the unborn child. Abortion is just a legal loophole that allows a mother to legally murder her unborn child.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act#:~:text=The%20Unborn%20Victims%20of%20Violence%20Act%20of%202004%20protects%20unborn,offense%20towards%20the%20pregnant%20woman.

[Opinion Owner]

The mental gymnastics some people, like the 32 year old "male" Swede here will try t go through to justify abortion is almost comical. By the way, in case you haven't noticed, she is a female pretending to be a male. She's acknowledged so much in the past.

[RingOfFire]

Interesting.

[Siri137]

You "want to understand the logic" here. I'm sorry, but when it comes to those who are "pro-choice", logic is nowhere to be found. What they don't seem to understand is the simple fact that the dictum "my body, my choice" simply does not apply, because it's not her body, but the body of someone else who is at the mother's complete mercy.

[RingOfFire]

That is exactly right.

I believe that if you voluntarily engage in sexual activity you are assuming the responsibility for the consequences of that act and for the wellbeing and safety of any child that is the result of that choice. The pro abortioners are just so adamant about respecting choice, but refuse to accept any of the responsibilities that come with it. This is typical of the way the brain of people on the left works. They want all the rights but none of the responsibilities that come with those rights.

[RedHotSallyJo]

I read every post, and I can't believe how stupid, people are.

This evil fucker (senate majority leader) wants babies to be torn in pieces, 1 minute before birth. And when the demons get that law passed, they will go after toddlers up to 1 year of age.

[RingOfFire]

You are so right.

[RedHotSallyJo]

I would like to ask the question about aborting actual children, but the mods would delete it.

[RingOfFire]

Don't know how long you have been here, but I signed up here 3 years ago. I was gone for about a year and a half of that and came back recently. One of the reasons I loved this site was that they allowed ALL points of view as long as there was substance to them and they weren't just personal attacks. That seems to have changed now. At least a quarter of my posts are deleted by the site when there is absolutely nothing wrong with them accept that they go against the mainstream left narrative. Sad to see another site go down the censorship path.

[RedHotSallyJo]

Go to similarworlds. com
You have to duke it out with your enemies, but you won't have to deal with corrupt mods and moronic admin.

[RingOfFire]

Thanks for that, I'll check it out.

[RedHotSallyJo]

You will block all of the assholes, and then you will have fun. I like Trump, but I can't say that on this corrupt site. I can handle the moronic tards that love Biden, but the mods and admin are totally corrupt.
Check our the site I suggested.

[RingOfFire]

Just took a quick look and it sounds interesting. I'll investigate further when I have more time. Thanks again for the tip!

[RedHotSallyJo]

Spread the word. GAG was good, and then the fucktards killed it. This was a fun and thriving community a few years ago. I bet when you were a young boy, you had a sling-shot. I had a sling-shot, and I tried to impress the boys with my expertise! What happened to childhood?
Children should be making mud pies, and not being indoctrinated by pedophile teachers.

[RingOfFire]

Couldn't agree more about what is happening to kids.

[RedHotSallyJo]

And if you speak out, Biden calls you a domestic terrorist. In past years, pedophiles hid in the shadows.


But times have changed. Now the left worships pedophiles.

[RingOfFire]

Here's one for you...

Why do you never see this in the news?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ-YjGmpO4Q

[RedHotSallyJo]

I couldn't watch much of this video. How could anyone vote for the pig?
I'm surprised the pedophile mods on this site haven't killed you off.

[RingOfFire]

What angers me is that all the media... the news media and social media online suppressed this video before the election so that people didn't even know about it. And most people still don't.

It doesn't matter that the guy is a disgusting child molester if no one knows about it because the news never reports this. That is the problem. The Democrats are in a conspiracy with the big tech and news organizations to cover up the truth.

[Anonymous]

So is it murder when an ectopic pregnancy is removed, or when labor is induced at 20 weeks for something like a placental abruption (called an induction abortion)? Yes, I know those situations are rare but if it's murder than it must always be murder, even when done to save the mother. I guess in those situations it would be considered justifying homicide.

[RingOfFire]

My real position is that I am opposed to abortion unless it threatens the life or serious harm to the mother or the pregnancy is the result of rape or incest. So yes, I think justifiable homicide is a good term for the scenarios you described. The important point here is that it is still killing an innocent living human. That is the part that the pro abortion advocates refuse to acknowledge.

I think that intentionally killing a baby that is the result of a voluntary sexual encounter is morally reprehensible and should be illegal. You are responsible for your actions and for safeguarding the life your actions created from the moment of conception. And if you intentionally kill the baby you are a murderer.

[Opinion Owner]

So just to get a debate going here, there are some in the prolife movement that think abortion shouldn't be allowed even in cases of rape and incest. They believe if life begins at conception it should be protected whenever possible There are some people who are products of rape or incest that have publicly stated that they believe they had a right to live once they were created regardless of how they were created.

On the other hand there are those the proabortion group that don't think personhood begins at conception even if the DNA code of a person is created at conception. To them it's just genetic material, until, well, that varies greatly too, some think personhood begins with a heart beat, others during the 2nd trimester, some think it happens when there is a fully formed cerebral cortex. Then another issue, regardless of when life or personhood begins is when do the unborn have an absolute right to life. Some argue that until an unborn child can live independent of someone else's body they don't have an absolute right to life. I'm not bringing up these points to be argumentative only to shine some light on both sides of the debate. I see so many people not really hearing each other sometimes over what they disagree on and why.

[RingOfFire]

Those are all legitimate points in the debate. But to be fair, you bring up the very few on the right who don't think abortion should be permitted even for rape or incest but you were too easy on the left. You offered the offsetting extreme on the left as being that there are some who think the fetus is just genetic material. This is not the most extreme faction. There are some (and not such a small minority as with the right) who think that late term abortion is acceptable and some who think it is acceptable for the baby to be aborted EVEN AFTER BIRTH before the umbilical cord is severed. That would be the extreme on the other side not just an opinion that the fetus is only genetic material.

Also, getting into the place where views about this debate count, on the federal level anyway, I have never heard a single Republican holding national office argue for banning abortion in the event of harm to the mother or rape or incest. If there are any it is an infinitesimal number. Among Democrats in Washington, however support for late term abortions if not abortion up until the moment of birth may not be the majority, but it is still mainstream. So where it counts, in mainstream politics, I think the Democrat's position is far more extreme than the Republicans.

[Opinion Owner]

Well, it's actually not just a few though that think this about rape and incest, Students for Life and LiveAction are two powerful prolife organization that hold this position. There are many others as well that I have come across in doing my own review of both sides of the debate, they might not be legislators but they have influence by their endorsements. I don't know that I'm being too harsh on the prolife side, if they believe that life begins at conceptions and that every human life has a right to life, than their view on this would make sense.

As far as going easy on the prochoice side, it's not about going easy on them it's about showing the logic behind their claims, whether anyone agrees with that logic is another story. I personally don't believe abortion should happen after viability unless there is a risk to the mother or a lethal fetal anomaly where giving birth would be inhumane to the mom and baby as it often is. The reason I don't champion around the idea of restrictions is that I know there are many gray areas in healthcare especially with pregnancy complications so I don't like the idea of medicine being decided by legislators and the court system. That doesn't mean I don't think abortion should be allowed electively up to the moment of birth but I think the medical community should be the one to determine the guidelines for such procedures. Even with Roe V Wade, states could restrict abortion after viability, with one exception to save the life of the mother.

[exitseven]

Nobody wants to do a legitimate study about when a fetus becomes a person. I do not know if the pro abortion crowd does not want to find out it is long before the day before the due date or the anti abortion crowd does not want t ofind out because it might be longer that 6 weeks.

[purplepoppy]

At the abortion stage a featureless mass of cells. It doesn't breathe, think or have a heartbeat. It is not a baby any more than what I blow out of my nose is.

[inhua]

what are they going to be honest about? escaping their responsibilities?

[provokeesmokee]

Why don't anti-choicers get consistent, first?

Is conception the beginning of life, or is it dependent on fetal development stage?

[RingOfFire]

So your contention is that the cells that are not living? They are dead like a rock or a piece or metal?

[OddBeMe]

Innocent means there’s a capacity to be bad. Fetuses have no brain or nervous system. False start.

[gothbxtch]

it isn’t a person yet.

[RingOfFire]

Then what is it? A frog? A bat? A rock? A plant?

[gothbxtch]

a clump of cells with the potential to be a person in the future.

[RingOfFire]

Do the cells have the potential to become anything else?

[gothbxtch]

no, but that doesn’t mean they’re a person yet

[RingOfFire]

What is your definition of a person and how do you know that they are not one yet?

[iheartwomen]

well before it’s born it’s apart of the mom so