Did you know that conversion therapy doesn't work for trans people?

[Anonymous]

(Or for gay people.)

Conversion therapy is meant to "help trans and gay people convert to become cis and straight." It's meant to "heal whatever caused them to become trans or gay, so they can be whole and normal again."

Unfortunately, study after study shows that this kind of therapy is extremely ineffective. It just doesn't work.

In fact it causes serious damage, often creating or making worse mental problems like depression, anxiety, PTSD, panic disorder, and even scuicidality.

Even if it's done consensually, rather than being forced on the person. Even if the person really wants it to work, and really wants to not be trans or gay. It still doesn't work! It still causes the same harm.

Conversion therapy is just very very bad!

[shortster]

Conversion therapy for trans people is hormone therapy and surgery. And yes it doesn't work. Because gender is determined by DNA. Which is why the suicide rate for people who have converted is higher than those who don't. So just on the suicide rate alone conversion therapy is bad. But then when you consider that you have destroyed their sexual organs and permanently sterilized them; it is even worse.

[Asker]

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you know how to write but don't know how to read. This question was for people who can read it. I hope you are able to learn in the future.

[OddBeMe]

Yes it’s harder to talk people out of things they don’t have any control over.

[provokeesmokee]

Yeah, that's why it's become a crime in Canada to promote, conduct, or send people to "conversion" activities.

It was a non-partisan effort and all parties includng Conservatives supported it and passed it without issue.

It's just torture. It doesn't work, it only harms.

And now, in Canada, it's a crime. As it should be.

[gorydetails]

But not as bad as convincing a dude he's a chick so he cuts off his dick or a woman to cut off her tits and sterilize herself.

[Asker]

Treatment which has been shown to be ineffective and psychologically harmful, is not as bad as treatment which has been shown to be effective and psychologically beneficial? Your moral values are very strange to me.

[gorydetails]

The same people who thought shoving an ice pick in your brain improved your mental health are now telling you to cut your tits off for your mental health. Your devotion to the butchery is quite interesting.

[Asker]

Except get this: transition is (what?) CONSENSUAL, and (what?) doesn't FUCK YOUR BRAIN. It's treatment that doesn't negatively effect quality of life or cognitive functions, which individuals can only choose to do under informed consent, just like any other medical thing.

I'm for healthcare, not butchery. If I was for butchery then I would support circumcision and "corrective" gential surgery on male and intersex BABIES. Which is still legal. Babies can't consent to fucking AESTHETIC GENITAL SURGERY that their PARENTS want, not them. Yet the same people who say trans Healthcare is mutilation are the same people who practice and defend these unnecessary surgeries for infants. THATS quite interesting.

[gorydetails]

Transition is done to impressionable children whose brains aren't developed enough to understand the consequences of their actions.

Vulnerable mentally ill adults are being coerced into transitioning as the sole fix to their problems.. That's not informed consent.

[Asker]

Trans children don't get genital surgery done. They wait until adulthood when their body is fully developed for such a big procedure—because it's healthcare, not butchery. It matters that the surgery has the smallest risk of complications. And the same for top surgery, a child's body has to be developed enough that the surgery can be preformed as on an adult. Some people mature to the point of growing boobs faster than others. This is reflected in both trans and cis kids being able to get breast augmentation after they are an older teen, even if they're not quite legally an adult.

The only think prepubecent children can get done for trans reasons, is puberty blocking medication. Just like cis kids can have done for other reasons. Because it's safe, and when it's the best option. Because it's healthcare.

As for "vulnerable mentally ill adults," nobody is coercing them to transition. In fact many have been denied the choice to transition because of their mental health. Literally the opposite of what you claim! People who have mental disorders have a much harder time and have to fight a lot harder to be allowed to transition, and even perfectly mentally able and healthy people often have to PROVE that they're mentally well before they will be allowed to transition.

It is informed consent, and even more than that. It should only get informed consent. But there are still extra barriers in addition to that good measure that trans people have to go through.
Again, this is much more informed consent than aesthetic surgery on babies. Which people against trans Healthcare still support for SOME reason...

[gorydetails]

You're lying when you say surgeries aren't being done on children, so we're done here.

[Asker]

Lol who told you they were chopping off 5-yos penises and giving them boobs? Whoever did, they were lying. I got my information from the doctors and hospitals that actually perform the surgeries, not randos who hate trans people and never talk to them unless to call them slurs. Please find better sources.

[gorydetails]

A hospital is being sued for doing something you claimed didn't exist.

nypost.com/.../

www.medpagetoday.com/.../101252

So, when do you want to stop lying?

[Asker]

So, a case of medical malpractice? Like malpractice that can happen involving any medical procedure? Yes, I'm aware bad doctors exist. I'm glad they're getting sued. This is evidence that people are able to recognize when something actually bad happens, as opposed to the regular not bad things. If it was normal for kids to be pressured into getting surgery as young teens, then this wouldn't be a big deal. They wouldn't be able to sue. And it wouldn't be a shocking news story. I'm sorry that anyone experiences medical malpractice, but sadly it does happen in many cases across all medicine. That doesn't mean that this one particular procedure is evil, just because a doctor was bad. My husband had a doctor pressure him into getting oral surgery as a kid. Doesn't mean dentistry is evil, just that he got a bad doctor. It sucks.

[gorydetails]

That's not what malpractice is. The doctor didn't make a mistake and nick an artery. And the 2nd link describes how often this mutilation is taking place.

Again, these are both things you insisted never happen. Now you're saying it does happen but is - in your opinion - no big deal.

[Asker]

I literally said it WAS a big deal. If YOU were right, then it wouldn't be a big deal. Obviously I don't think you're right. I didn't say these things NEVER happen, I said that's not how it works. That's not the rule. There are always exceptions to the rules, no matter how strict they are. Again, like like case of malpractice. I'd say doctors aren't evil, but that doesn't mean NO doctor is EVER evil. It means that doctors aren't allowed to be, and if one is they are punished and not allowed to be a doctor anymore.

And I'm obviously talking about malicious, money-grabbing medical malpractice. Not a simple mistake by a well meaning doctor. You know how many dentist places have been shut down for malpractice—for pressuring adults and kids to get painful, permanent procedures done that they do not need (but the Dr lies and says they need it) just to charge them a shitload of money and leave their teeth permanently fucked up? Malpractice is fucking horrible and it should never happen. But it DOES happen, and what you provided was a clear example of it. But just like a dentist maliciously greedily lying to pressure a patient into surgery doesn't make oral surgeries evil, so a doctor handling trans healthcare maliciously greedily lying to pressure a patient into surgery doesn't make trans-related surgeries evil.

[gorydetails]

Well yeah, it kind of does. Because if they didn't exist, doctors couldn't perform them.

[Asker]

And if no surgeries existed, then doctors couldn't perform any surgery! Get rid of medicine, and there will be no more medical malpractice of any kind! Does that sound like a good idea to you? Does that sound like the logical way to handle this kind of thing? One dentist tricked and ripped someone off, so ban all dentists. Make practicing dentistry a felony. Boom, problem solved! No more dentists can do bad things, because there are no more dentists! 🙄

[gorydetails]

I don't think it's within the purview of the medical code "Do no harm" to allow a mentally ill adult to mutilate their body to confirm a delusion.

[Asker]

No, but it is well within the medical code of "do no harm" to allow a mentally competent adult to choose a treatment option that has been shown to be highly effective at treating a serious problem they have, especially when that problem won't go away without treatment. To deny healthcare to a competent adult because the doctor doesn't like the side effects, when the patient is well aware of the side effects and is perfectly fine witj them, and when the treatment is safe and effective... that's fucked up. Like imagine if a doctor wouldn't perform chemo on someone because the doctor thought it would be bad of them to let the patient get treatment that would make them bald and lower their immune system, when the patient knows that and is okay with those effects, and the alternative is have cancer, untreated, until it maybe kills you. That's obviously doing harm to deny someone treatment they need and want.

[gorydetails]

there are no mentally competent transgenders.

[Asker]

Oh. Then yeah we can't have a reasonable discussion. Sorry. Bye.

[gorydetails]

I told you we couldn't when you lied about children being mutilated.

[Asker]

I should have known when you totally ignored the fact that people who call that mutilation support the actual mutilation of circumcision and aesthetic genital surgery on babies.

[gorydetails]

right, because that's not part of the conversation so don't create strawmen arguments.

[Asker]

It's not strawman. It's showing those are bad sources of information you shouldn't trust. But you're too tight in their grip to hear reason. It's unfortunate.

[gorydetails]

lol, they're newspapers and medical journals.

[Asker]

www.medpagetoday.com/meetingcoverage/aua/79635
www.nytimes.com/.../...y-when-shouldn-t-it-be.html

[gorydetails]

Just like a woman can’t consent to sex if she’s drunk, mentally ill people with gender dysphoria can’t give consent

[Asker]

Nobody can consent to sex if they're drunk. But surgery isn't sex, so that's irrelevant anyways. And you still ignore your sources being fine with genital surgery on babies, even when faced with clear examples, so that's all I had left to tell you.

[gorydetails]

Idiot. Show me one time where I said that was ok. I’ll wait.

[Asker]

Stop asking me for shit, you can't even read bro. I said your sources say this, and you said no, so I showed you yes, and now you're all confused again thinking I said YOU were okay with it. When I've never been attacking you, I've been attacking your sources. You clearly didn't come up with this opinion by yourself.

[gorydetails]

Lmao. You keep conflating the two subjects to try to make some dumb point to recover from the fact that you claimed that minors weren’t having their bodies mutilated, and when I pointed out they absolutely were, you keep trying to change the subject.

[Asker]

I'm just stupid for keeping trying to reason with you.

[gorydetails]

You can’t even complete a thought, so it’s not surprising.