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We have such high value on ourselves and retribution and justice. And of course the guilty should face justice. But Israel is just causing more violence now. Each attack will cause a counter attack.
Is this not obvious?
Yes, that's obvious to me. One act of pointless violence leads to retaliation, which then leads to a response in kind, which leads to... an endless, vicious cycle. Someone has to be the first to stop, before things get truly out of hand, but do you think that's going to happen in this case? Not a chance! And what's worse is that there are IDIOTS who are getting all hawkish, and cheering on one side or the other, trying to encourage others who are not at all affected by the violence to get involved.
I winced when a media outlet described the Hamas attack as "unprovoked"; unjustifiable, certainly, but there have been decades of provocation.
Stop treating people like shit, and they've got less reason to fight you.
Violence can be used to stop someone being violent towards you. Pacifism doesn't work unless everyone is of if someone protects you.
Define victory? What was the goal of the Iraq war and what was the result?
Also if someone is being violent towards you how do you stop them without violence? How does a pacifist group like the amish stop someone from beating them up to rob them?
Were getting semantic. But id say self defense isn't violence. Offensive actions are violence. Maybe you disagree.
But overall... do you not think every family member whos relative killed in an Israeli bombing joins Hamas in an absurd cycle of violence?
Thats what happened in Iraq. That's why we failed.
So HAMAS fires a rocket attacks Israel from a school and the Israelis fire back, according to you that's self defence and OK.
In what way did the Iraq war fail? What is the status of Iraq currently?
Yes actions and counteractions. What would happen if MI13 was lobbing rockets across the US boarder from Mexico?
When 9/11 went down with the loss of 3000 civilians the US government launched a 20 year war that cost the lives of maybe 10 million civilians or more in the middle east.
A terrorist only has to get lucky once ie 9/11. There is also the expense of the iron dome and the fact that if they don't shut down the rocket factories, supplies, rocket sites eventually a sufficient number of rockets will get through.
A history of bad governance in Mexico has allowed these gangs to grow and succesive us governments over decades inability to properly secure the boarder has allowed drugs to flow into America.
Bin laden wanted America out of the middle east, no more bases, no more influence. Nothing changed except Iraq got destroyed and the Iraqi government is paying us companies to rebuild with Iraqi oil profits meanwhile alqueda is gone taken over by ISIS who is also gone and bin laden and all the leaders of those groups are basically all dead.
HAMAS never expected the backlash from Oct 7th to be so bad and they imagined more sympathy from the world and for Muslim countries to join up and push the Israelis out in mass genocide. Hard to be sympathetic for a war HAMAS started. If anything HAMAS and Alqueda did exactly what the us and Israel wanted.
When Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait in 1990, bin Laden offered to support Saudi Arabia by sending his Mujahideen fighters. His offer was rebuffed by the Saudi government, which instead sought the aid of the United States. The stationing of U. S. troops in the Arabian Peninsula prompted bin Laden to declare a jihad against both the rulers of Saudi Arabia – whom he denounced as murtadd (apostates) – and against the US. From 1992, al-Qaeda established its headquarters in Sudan until it was expelled in 1996. It then shifted its base to the Taliban-ruled Afghanistan and later expanded to other parts of the world, primarily in the Middle East and South Asia. In 1996 and 1998, bin Laden issued two fatāwā that demanded the withdrawal of U. S. troops from Saudi Arabia.
Today the US still has a presence in the middle east, mission failure.
How is us presence in the middle east a win for alqueda when their mission and very reason for being was to get the us out of the middle east, which failed?
What is going to happen to HAMAS is exactly what happened to Hezbollah. Eventually they will be ousted from power and the firing of rockets into Israel will stop. What HAMAS & Hezbollah wanted was to make a statement with all those dead Israelis but they never imagined Israelis reaction would be so severe. They continue the war thinking that they will gain support from Arab neighbours but that's failed too.
From the very first attack in 1992 in Yemen which was on US troops it was all about getting US troops out of the middle east. In Yemen troops were on their way to fight in Mogadishu in Somalia another Muslim country. This was the start of Al Queda's campaign after US military bases and a large us military presence was established in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Oman during the Gulf War and continues to this day. Al Queda, ISIS and other such groups want foreign non-mislim troops out of Muslim lands. It's litteraly in Al Queda's mission statement, their failure to achieve this is how ISIS took them over.
The point of all the Terror attacks and there were quite a few before 9/11 is for the west to gdt out of the middle east.
1993, the World Trade Center bombing
1995, a car bomb exploded at a facility in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia killed 5 Americans, two indians, wounded 60
1998 United States embassy bombings which killed 12 Americans, 224 people and wounded 4000 plus.
2000 USS Cole bombing killed 15 sailors and injured 37 others.
Bin laden imagined the whole Islamic world rising up against American bases in the middle east, 9/11 was supposed to show the great American Satan can bleed. 35 years later from the Gulf War America still has a huge military presence in the middle east and Alqueda basically doesn't exist anymore.
HAMAS never imagine this response. They went too far. Most of their leaders are dead and they are set to lose GAZA all together. HAMAS is about to suffer the same fate as Hezbollah.
Exactly. Mission accomplished. The middle east apart from Iran is in America's sphere of influence. Syria, yemen and Libya who sided with Russia are basically flattened as a warning while countries like Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Bahrain after the Arab spring all have US friendly governments installed. They buy US manufactured goods in exchange for oil and for us building companies to build or rebuild in their country.
Afghanistan served its purpose. The decision to leave Afghanistan was made by accountants. Al queda was the target not the taliban and Afghanistan paid a heavy price for hosting alqueda. Then you look at how the taliban were left enough money and weapons to be a threat to their neighbours Pakistan, Iran, China, Kazakhstan etc.
Trillions spent in Iraq to secure control of the middle east and its oil, keeping oil prices low.
I don't argue the morality of it but there's an overall strategy if divide and rule and where they can't sow the seeds of chaos. The British used to do similar often creating a problem so they can solve it with their military.
The Taliban is back in control but for 20 years they were left out in the cold, their members killed their power weakened. A message was sent to a lot of other regimes. Do you think in retrospect for the taliban was it worth hosting Alqueda in their country when they were attacking America? Is Alqueda in Afghanistan now? The Taliban have bigger fish to fry with ISIS launching terror attacks against its leaders trying to takeover Afghanistan.
Republic trillions? You act like it matters if the Democrats or Republicans are in power. The Democrats were negotiating with the taliban before Bush was elected, before the war on terror. When Bush was out what changed when Obama was president? Instead of locking up terror suspects in guantanamo the Obama administration killed them with drones, did the Obama administration pull out of Afghanistan or Iraq? No they got the US involved in military action in Syria, Libya, Yemen and places in africa. Now we are involved in Ukraine, Gaza, yemen again and soon Iran. Any country in the middle east that doesn't bow to US control and influence is met by civil war, goverment overthrow war with its neighbour or military action. Sowing the seeds of chaos.
Ask yourself from an American government point of view what would victory in Afghanistan have looked like? Don't say democracy either because the us government doesn't care about that
They were allowed back into power and left with tons of arms and funds for a reason. The taliban are a foil to Iran, Afghanistan and china who are on their boarder. They are also facing competition from ISIS in Afghanistan. It fits in with US middle east policy of spreading chaos and instability in the middle east.
A good example of this was back in 2014 when the Iraqis were pushing for the us to leave Iraq and dismantle their military bases, next thing you know ISIS instead of going after Assad takes a right turn and invades Iraq and all of a sudden the Iraqis want the US back.
Yes they were very much allowed. The Vietnam war achieved its purpose and the north was allowed to take over south Vietnam as we had decided to stop supporting them.
The Iraq war is still going. Obama pulled out some troops and the fighting continued with private contractors, Iraqi forces and drones. That's why most in the middle east call for Obama to be arrested for war crimes because of how many civilians were killed by his covert drone campaign
Stop the spread of communism in Asia. Test new weapons. Drain the soviet economy and see their technology levels.
Nobody told ISIS the war in Iraq was over. US bases were attacked multiple times last year.
www.google.com/.../world-middle-east-68863981.amp
www.google.com/.../iraq-says-us-bombing-killed-civilians-and-intensified-regional-conflict
www.google.com/.../world-middle-east-66643208.amp
Hamas are not going to stop unless they are stopped
Not stopping them means they are able to rearm, grow their power and continue to attack. You can't wait in hope the enemy runs out of bullets.
It's not startrek, you can't just raise sheilds and set phasers to stun.
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if the concern is really for the future peace of residents of either place then yes, violence should not be the next steps. violence has been the primary actions for the last ~100 years since the end of WWII.
sadly it is hard when there is a terroristic actor (Hamas) involved though right? one that isn't concerned with logic and reason, and this isn't to say that Israel hasn't instigated violence cause they have.
it's an extremely complicated situation
No it is NOT obvious. Hamas does not have that many followers and is very unlikely to carry out another attack like last Saturday. And yes, violence does more violence, but more important, it also leads to peace once Hamas is destroyed.
Violence is part of human nature. It has been for of all of recorded history. People forget humans are animals too.
"Violence is a part of human nature".
So we should just accept it? I don't think so! It doesn't have to be this way.
Violence begets violence.
You always have the most ridiculous poll options
Did Hamas attack Israel?
I don't think they have any choice in the matter. I don't even see it as revenge. It's about life or death. I wish the Jews didn't even live in the place where they were surrounded by enemies, but what I want doesn't matter.
I hope not.
I'd say Hamas made a big mistake.
If that's what you want.
I never said that, you did.
If someone broke into your home and killed your family, would you talk about violence causing more violence?
I don't understand your point. Are you praising Humas for this attack?
Do you think Hamas didn't make a mistake?
Oh no I do. Both made mistakes. Israel has been colonizing Gaza Strip and provoking Palestinians, not to mention taking their homes away.
And hamas is a terrorist extremist group who reacted. Both need to stop. Criminals should be prosecuted. But innocent people don’t have to die.
So what's your plan to stop it?
When are you implementing your plan?
No, because this is all a joke to you.
One minute and I get crickets? LOL
My plan is not to pit Republicans against Democrats over a war that will never end. Why is that your only goal? My plan is for Biden to wobble up to the podium and give Israel and Palestine the green light to do what they feel is necessary. I don't want a single American to get their legs blown off because of someone else's war. Then I want the news coverage to stop, and I want Biden impeached for not securing our own border.
I'm watching the news now and 18 Americans have been killed in Gaza, and more are missing. So what was your plan for this second war under the watch of you hero Joe?
So what's your plan?
Oh, yeah, sorry. You don't have a plan. Just let them kill each other.
No not what I said above. Either you’re mentally handicapped or have an ideology that refuses reason.
Reread my “plan” above. It’s actually a long standing mid east peace plan. Never tried because idiots like you either don’t understand it or refuse to overlook relfigion.
You don’t sound stupid. So I’m guessing just ideologically blinded.
I read your plan. Did I not say that?
You don't have a plan. You sound like Obama. Hope and change. Brilliant plan! When will you start your plan? Tomorrow? Or do you just want to divide Americans?
Your plan was hope and change and it starts tomorrow.
Typing a plan on this site is meaningless, but you can't understand that. You just saved the day by typing a plan.
I have a plan. It's called the "Teddy Bear."
It just rolled into Gaza. Hamas is going to die.
I’m starting to think this is smarts. Or lack there of. 1600+ innocent Palestinian women’s and children have died and you want to add to that.
Israel isn’t attacking Hamas. They’re attacking Gaza. Just like Bush W didn't attack Al Quaeda. He attacked Iraq. Bad on all levels.
If you’re still blinded by your ideology, you’re an idiot. And I’m done with this convo.
Post a Palestinian flag on your FaceBook page. That will fix everything.
Sure it does but sometimes it is needed
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