Do you stand with Palestine?

[Anonymous]

Standing with Palestine means:

1) You don't support the slaughter of innocent women and children in Palestine in recent weeks at the hand of Israel. This does not mean you support Hamas.

2) You recognize Israel as an apartheid state, and the ongoing occupation for 75 years. Note: this is due to Israel occupying or blockading Gaza, West Bank, and other previously agreed on boundaries with the U. N.

3) It does not mean you approve of the slaughter of Israeli civilian lives on 10/7. However, you do understand that similar civilian deaths have occurred on the Palestinian side year after year.

4) You do not believe Israel is above international law when they are committing mass-murder of innocent civilians, and they should not be given special diplomatic cover by the U. S. in front of the U. N.

Yes, I stand with Palestinians. Not Hamas.

I don't know what is going on.

I support Israel regardless of war crimes committed.

Updates

+1 y

It may be interesting to hear the 'outside' perspective from Iran: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8bGrJD3eIQ

[nightdrot]

Actually, I voted for neither as, from an American perspective, it should properly be viewed as a strategic calculation, not a moral decision. That said, to be fair, there are serious moral issues at stake, and it has been an accepted principle of international affairs - at least since the end of World War I if not before - that national self-determination is the right of a people. It's partly the reason why the victorious Allies broke up the Austro-Hungarian Empire and it is why imperialism is in such bad repute today.

That said, international affairs are about power, not principle - except insofar as sovereign powers have the ability to assert their moral principles. In the Palestinian-Israeli case, there are conflicting nationalisms, though in the Palestinian case, the sense of national identity is somewhat weak - with Palestine divided between Palestinian nationalist, Islamist and (to some degree) pan-Arab identities.

These splits within the Palestinian community have significantly weakened the Palestinian cause, with about the only thing holding the Palestinian factions together is their ardent right to return to what they consider historic Palestine. In that connection, it should not be forgotten that the United Nations Organization divided the territory in a two state solution and it was the Palestinian Arabs, not the Israeli Jews, who rejected that compromise solution.

As to the situation now, the Palestinian cause is largely over - the media images notwithstanding. The decision by the Palestinians to support Saddam Hussein's Iraq against Kuwait in the 1990-1991 Persian Gulf War effectively ended Arab support for the Palestinian cause in fact if not in name.

Throw in the rivalry between Persian-Shiite-republican Iran and the Arab-Sunni-monarchies (as well as Egypt.) You now have a de facto alliance between Israel and the Arabs, effectively shutting out the Palestinians (who are increasingly looking to Iran.)

From the American viewpoint, that Arab-Israeli alliance is useful for hemming in not just Iran, which is small beer, but Russia - which in geostrategic terms matters more. In that connection, then, support for Israel makes sense.

The Palestine issue for the U. S. is secondary and if - as they recently stated - the Palestinians do not see the U. S. as a mediator, then that is their affair and the status quo will suffice. Palestinian options are few.

[Asker]

The US does not care about Palestinians or morality. I think that has been very clearly established for a very long time. The same can be said about the Jews. The UK or the US do not care about Jew or Israel (UK created Israel to solve in their words "the Jewish problem". Also why every European country has kicked Jews out and Germany even murdered them to a precision that it got called the holocaust). The only reason the US funds Israel is for its strategic location in the Middle East. Israel being a state that does not naturally belong in the region, and needing a sponsor to have defensive capabilities (US tax payer money). However, to you point... this mutual relationship gives US a FOB in the region.

Meanwhile, Saudi Arabia is still the provider of gas for US allies. US today is self-sufficient but its allies are not. Saudi Arabia is where Wahhabi Sunni (an extremist sect) exist - where Al Qaeda, Osama Bin Laden, 9/11 attackers and ISIS came from. In return, we appeased them by making a list of 7 countries to topple in 5 years. 7 countries that could have jeopardize the Saudi oil trade: www.globalresearch.ca/.../5166

While there have been problems in Shiites and Sunnis, these groups do not care about this difference in this conflict at a national level. Iran despise Saudi Arabia for its adoption of Wahhabi extremism which is far more oppression for a conservative Iran.

[nightdrot]

Well, if you are right - and you are oversimplifying a more complex reality - then you should neither object nor be surprised by the US position on the Palestinians. They are simply pawns in the chess game - and you cannot object to that.

The following quotes are applicable to international affairs:

From Lord Palmerston: "We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow."

From Theodore Roosevelt: "World peace comes not from human kindness or moral restraint, but from balanced power; equilibriums of force restraining the selfish aims of nation-states."

From John Quincy Adams: "Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own."

Camillo di Cavour: "Astonish them with my ingratitude." (His response when asked by a reporter what he would do for the Italian liberals who helped him unite Italy.)

Victor Davis Hanson (paraphrasing Thucydides): "Power, not justice... is always the final arbiter of state relations; self-interest, not morality, is what guides and must guide the behavior of states. Appeals to mercy or hope for reprieve are misguided, not rooted in logic or a realistic understanding of human behavior."

For you to object to that is like arguing with the law of gravity. It is what it is, a great big palpitating fact. The Palestinians have no real allies and tied themselves to Iran. A reasonable strategy, but not likely one that will succeed.

[Asker]

Iran is not tied to Hamas. Iran is more tightly linked to Hezbollah. Hezbollah and Hamas fought against each other in the civil war.

Do Hamas and Iran find themselves to have other common goals and interests and are therefore allies? yes.

[nightdrot]

Question: Iran is not tied to HAMAS and yet Iran and HAMAS are allies. Is that not the tie?

Alliances in general are based in common interests. To be sure, there are ideological alliances, but you are right as far as it goes. However, the fact that they are allies means that they are, in practice, tied together. Likely so to remain, too, so long as the geopolitical situation remains roughly what it has been.

[NamerOfStars]

Aww, is the little would-be warlord upset that the bear he's been jabbing in the testicles with a cattle prod for the past several decades finally poked back?

The question you should be asking isn't "Why does anyone support a nation with as spotty a reputation as Israel has?" but "Why is that as bad as Israel looks, we're worse?".

[Asker]

More like the world (especially Americans) are waking up to lies they have been told by the government about Israel.

Israel being a state that has been slowly committing a genocide using $4billion/year American tax money and playing victim while marginalizing and stealing from helpless Palestinians. Palestinians being a group of people who have been living in the worst of conditions labeled as an 'open air prison'.

www.hrw.org/.../gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

It is always funny and interesting when a bully fights someone with their hands and legs tied and claims then claim themselves to be a victim and a praiseworthy hero.

[NamerOfStars]

Funny, that's exactly how most of us feel about Palestine.

[Asker]

propaganda will do that to you. especially when core strategy is projection.

[NamerOfStars]

And that's the only reason people support Palestine. Do you really think we don't recognize a DARVO attack when we see one?

[Anonymous]

https://tinyurl.com/yypkrama

[Opinion Owner]

https://tinyurl.com/yc45dyna

[Flatmanlewis]

I think this topic and seven decades of history make this far, far, more complex than a three possible question survey. The answers alone are so tilted as to show the clear bias in it. As a student of history I know this: The first thing to die in any war is the truth.

[Asker]

www.timesofisrael.com/.../

theintercept. com/.../

www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/

www.hrw.org/.../gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

www.democracynow.org/.../grand_central_protest

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1143002

These are all facts from verifiable sources. What you have stated is an opinion. Remind me, what is bias again?

[Asker]

theintercept.com/.../

[Flatmanlewis]

Well, if you’re going to send links then make sure they aren’t dead links. Second, if you think a few random news articles written by biased authors is ‘truth’ then I’d politely say you are mistaken. Get into publications like Foreign Affairs on the light end and pick up some actual books. The complexity of this situation of far more than any article can dissect.

[Asker]

the broken links are interesting.

But the 2 that work... Amnesty Intl and UN are biased sources? LOL

[Flatmanlewis]

Yes. The UN is a political body, not an objective think tank of academics. They are political appointees by their nations own respective politicians. They have failed over and over. From Haiti to Rwanda to Bosnia, the UN has shown a consistent inability to make decisions based on that’s is morally right choosing political expediency instead.

[Anonymous]

Hamas just announced that they will keep attacking Israel, until all the Jews are dead.

Hamas are Palestinians.

The Palestinians voted for Hamas.

Bibi told the Palestinians to retreat to the safe zone.

Hamas won't let the Palestinians retreat to the safe zone.

I support Israel.

I support the idea of having an American president that would secure our Southern border.

I support Israel for once and for all, cutting off the head of the snake.

The head of the FBI said that there will be a terrorist attack in America, because of Biden's open border policy.

I support the new speaker of the House. I hope he will get Biden impeached, instead of just talking about it like McCarthy.

[Asker]

Hamas has released some Jewish prisoners on humanitarian grounds. These prisoners have said they were treated humanely and provide medical care in captivity. If Hamas wanted to kill all Jews, they would have executed the prisoners already and never released them.

Hamas are Palestinians. Earth is a planet. Cheetos is a food. Morons are humans.

All Palestinians are not Hamas. Hamas has approximately 40,000 personnel. Population of Gaza is approximately 2 million. That is 2% of the population, not 100%.

Mobilization of 2 million people is not easy (they dont have as many lifted dodge fored and chevy in every driveway) . Bombs have been dropped all over Gaza. Bombs have been dropped on refugee camps and hospitals.

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1143002

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/10/1142842

There have been no evidence of human shields apart from the kidnapping. Meanwhile, UN and ICC are looking into war crimes Israel is conducting.

Cutting the head of the snake is fine, although it seems the only heads that have been cut off are of Palestinian kids and babies.

Biden is a disappointment.

Of course you do. He is abhorrent. No surprise.

[exitseven]

I do not stand with cowards. Killing unarmed civilians is the work of cowards.

[Asker]

One side has killed 1400 civilians approximately, and the other side has killed 10000+. So, I guess I know who you stand with.

[exitseven]

You poke the bear and you take your chances. They get no sympathy from me.

[Asker]

that's called hypocrisy

[exitseven]

No, it's called payback. I am a big believer in payback

[Lottifan]

I support Israel. There’s no difference at all between the Palestinians and Hamas. They both want the same thing. The destruction of Israel.

[Asker]

Unfortunately opinions are not facts. Hamas is only 2% of Palestinians.

Palestinians do want their land that have been illegally occupied by Israel as per UN resolutions.

Israel was created by the UK to ex-fill Jews from the UK. Rest of Europe too persecuted Jews and they were abolished and forced to leave from several countries. Even the US had anti Jew immigration laws in the early 19th century. Germany went ahead and exterminated Jews in a way and speed that it was called the holocaust.

So who has hated and exterminated Jews?

Meanwhile, Palestinians are Christians, Muslims, and Jews who lived in harmony before European Jewish refuges showed up on their shores. Also, the funny story is, when the UK was selecting a land for Israel (Uganda being the first choice), Jewish clerics did not want it to be in the Palestinian land near Jerusalem because Jews are only suppose to enter it with their Messiah.

[Lottifan]

Illegally occupied. Good joke. For 75 years Israel has offered the Palestinians peace. They don’t want to accept so let them suffer the consequences.

[Asker]

"good joke": www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/

i guess you must know more than an internationally renown humanitarian org... among others.
UN:
https://press.un.org/en/2016/sc12657.doc.htm

Offered "peace".

its like saying i went to a car dealership and was offered a mustang at 5 times the cost and i am to blame cause i did not accept highway robbery.

ask any legitimate historians, the peace deals were shams.

[Anonymous]

I think the only way to fix the situation is to let Israel invade and kill all the terrorists and accept that there will be many, many innocent casualties. Its part of the horror of the situation. I feel bad for innocent Palestinians that want to live in peace but they failed to clean up their house and clearly cannot manage themselves. They were given a crack at it and they failed. I don't stand with either of them though b/c if I was in charge I would stay out of it.

[Asker]

Hamas was grown and funded by Netanyahu to displace PLO - Palestinian left and dissolve the effort of a unified Palestine. This has been published in the Times of Israel and The Intercept to name a few sources. There is also records of Netanyahu boasting it himself.

Many Jews in Israel and outside of it blame Netanyahu for the security lapse that allowed extensive damage on 10/7.

Hamas is only present in Gaza strip. Gaza strip does not have autonomy and is blockaded by Israel from all surroundings. Democratic elections from the Palestinian left were dismantled at every step by Israeli right and US.

Israel is responsible for fostering conditions within Gaza for creation of a Hamas. Israel gave Palestinians no choice and no ability but to live with Hamas.

This is not my opinion, these are facts as laid out by the U. N and Amnesty International. Reason why many Jews are actively protesting alongside Palestinians against Israel and Zionists.

www.timesofisrael.com/.../

theintercept.com/.../

www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/5141/2022/en/

www.hrw.org/.../gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15

[Asker]

www.democracynow.org/.../grand_central_protest

[Anonymous]

I support Israel and I support Palestine. But not Hamas

[Asker]

Israel is an apartheid state:

www.amnesty.org/.../

www.ohchr.org/.../israels-55-year-occupation-palestinian-territory-apartheid-un-human-rights

Maybe, what you mean is you stand with Jews and Palestinians... because you are a humanitarian? Meanwhile, you do not condone Hamas or Israel's genocide? (Israel as a nation - leadership and laws, Jews living in or outside Israel, and Zionists are all different entities).

[QuietRunner]

I support Syria Palaestina

[Anonymous]

No. I don’t stand with either of them.

[Worst]

noㅤㅤ