Which movement has more validity in its foundational philosophy, 4B or MGTOW?

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

“My Life Is Not Your Porn”

Thats an interesting statement on that sign.

I assume a lot of MGTOWS and MRAs in America or the laying flat guys in China would say “your life shouldn’t be our porn”.

[msmissydc]

So MGTOW things we live in a gynocentric society and because they can't change that they want to stay away from women. From personal experience they dont actually stay away from women but make them responsible for their misarable life. They send rapethreats to women who call themselfe femimist and have a deep hatred for women.
They do not actually stay away from women!!!
If they would I wouldn't have any problem with them because their original idea is the same with switched roles to 4B.

4B means
1. No sex with men. They do this because they thing there is too much risk for women who do.
2. Not giving birth because they think that having children puts women at a disadvantage in the market place when it comes to jobs.
3./4. No dating and marrying men because they see it as an extend of a patriarchal structure of society.

I do not think 4b is right for everyone and I could not do it.
Generally they are similar in their idea. Which is valid if you have that opinion.

I personally had to deal with too many selfproclaimed MGTOW mysoginst that literally send me rapethreats and worse, which not only makes them hypocritical but purely hateful instead of trying to be save, by staying away from the other gender. I would love for them to actually 'go their own way'. I have no problem with the part of them that actually do so.

I had no contact with any 4B "members", so far. I only know them in theory.

Yes I am biased, I know. But with my history I dont think I can change that.
So yes, I think 4B has more validity just because, they haven't shown to be hateful hypocrits.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Thanks for giving me your insights. You are correct, nearly everything could be reversed, as in their belief systems are a near identical inversion of each other.

I have one little caveat to think about regarding this statement;
“3./4. No dating and marrying men because they see it as an extend of a patriarchal structure of society.”

So only the hardest patriarchal cultures and a few billionaire legacy families will be around in 100 years if both mgtow and 4B as well as other population control situations come full circle.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

So maybe decent people should reproduce more if they dont want the absolute worse of this world to out produce them?

[msmissydc]

Or we just try to minimize the reasons why people become mgtow and 4B. That would actually help instead of making new problems to counter others.

[ProbablyClueless]

MGTOW is probably more based in reality. Because MGTOW's whole observation is that society is rigged against men who don't have certain characteristics, which they use as the basis for opting out of society.

The 4B Movement is women's response to men not giving them certain things, without realizing that the reason men aren't giving those things is because they often can't. 4B wants to deprive men of the things that MGTOW says women already aren't providing.

4B says don't get married and don't have sex. MGTOW is saying don't get married as well, but they're saying that because the women aren't sleeping with them anyhow.

[msmissydc]

Except that's not at all the reasoning behind 4B. They don't primarily plan to deprive men of these things; they have arguments for each part of it.

[ProbablyClueless]

@msmissydc Well, I'd love to learn about those arguments, if you're willing to explain them.

[msmissydc]

Look at my comment. I listed them there. That is their own explanation, I just repeated them.

[ProbablyClueless]

@msmissydc I see... so 4B is just MGTOW for women.

And the MGTOW's response to 4B would be; okay, but y'all were already doing this stuff anyway.

[msmissydc]

Yeah. 4B and mgtow have bassically the same basic idea. That being said why would they respond to each other? None of them would be looking for the other at any point.

[ProbablyClueless]

@msmissydc That's true... and It certainly wouldn't be for anything productive, if they did look for each other. They might use the other as a reference point to tell their own people how crazy the other side is. I think it's safe to say that neither of these groups are made up of particularly healthy people.

[msmissydc]

I mean, their basic ideas are kind of weird but understandable, so I wouldn't call them unhealthy. My personal experience with MGTOW people is messed up; they are hypocrites who don't even do the one thing they are supposed to, when you go by their name. They are just hatefull, so understandable why they couldn't even score if they wanted to.
4B on the other hand I have no personal experience with with. If they do what their name is saying then that is actually a valid choice.

[ProbablyClueless]

@msmissydc True MGTOW is a valid choice too. The Manosphere and red pill is different from MGTOW. A lot of the MGTOW people were created by their negative and abusive experiences in dealing with women, so they go their own way as a form of protest. The broader Manosphere people are the pick up artists and such; those guys tend to be the more toxic ones.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

👆🧢

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

True

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

“okay, but y'all were already doing this stuff anyway.”

I suspect a lot of 4Bs are Alpha Widowed

[msmissydc]

What even is that?

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

@msmissydc heart broken and done with men, just stupid gen Z lingo

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

But for women their inner dialogue often seems to go something like “the guys I want just end up being players or never want to commit, so f it”

I've only seen similar mind sets with men in their 40s or 50s who lose their wife to cancer or a car wreck

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Like “nothing will replace Sally, she was an awesome woman, wife, and mom”

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Its seems pedantic and more entitled when
“Joe had an eight pack, wealthy parents, perfect face, perfect hair, tall af, nice, funny, every girl wanted him, I don’t see my myself ever settling or being happy with less. So forget dating and men.”

[msmissydc]

That is so far from reality, though. It just seems like incel lingo, not Gen Z lingo. Generally, the so-called players are not the problem; you can easily identify them. The problem is the so-called "nice guys," and no, these are not actually nice people. They fake being nice and friendly until they lose their temper because they actually only want sex. When women say they are done with men, they dont mean I can't find someone who is as perfect as guy x. They most of the time mean I just want someone who actually cares and isn't secretly just wanting sex. The problem with this is, that for women the search is actually dangerous so they give up.
So I think its entitled when men say they give up and women have it much easier in dating when in reality, the worst that happened to most men was a no. While the worst stuff women have to deal with is that the problematic ones don't care about no and that's not even rare.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

@msmissydc in my early 30s it seemed women only wanted sex…well I fumbled one or two who wanted a real relationship but I felt Like they weren’t good enough, so I guess both sexes are a bit fucked up these days.

[OneViewpoint]

Both movements are a manifestation of personalities who have always been here. The whining babies who can't compete in life and cling to any excuse they can find to simply do nothing. These people are afraid to fail and would rather stay on their mom's couch crying about how badly life has treated them. Fine. Do that. Spend the rest of your life in a self pity party. Die alone and miserable.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Doing nothing is becoming competitive

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

In the Victim olympics

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

I’d say its a manifestation of unfair family and divorce court standards for men. But thats just me

[OneViewpoint]

Why are these guys in divorce court? Because they didn't want to put in the effort?

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Huh? I bled for my country, didn’t do anything to deserve losing my kids in family court EXCEPT choose a partner.

Poorly, apparently its my judgment in choosing a mate that was on trial.

[OneViewpoint]

Didn't choose wisely. Didn't put in the effort to make it work. WTF does that have to do with military service? You can't keep living off past glories for the rest of your life. Life moves on.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Yep, moves on straight into a fox hole. You disrespect your protectors, you get what what you deserve. You’re an old man and will likely not be expected to defend anything.

[OneViewpoint]

My father was career Air Force. I was a US Army officer for 15 years boy (Ranger Airborne). The difference between me and you is it was a job for me. I moved on. I'm not clinging to something in my past or using it to whine for any special treatment for the rest of my life. I don't need to be thanked for it. I pursued that commission because I wanted to. Then I resigned my commission and moved on to another career. You appear to be stuck in time. Grow up boy.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

I can still run 2 miles and under 14 minutes. I’m still good with my scoped hunting rifle. I was excellent at ground combative and I could still kick ass probably kick your ass too screw you dude.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

You were lucky enough not to get hit as a standing target, I was infantry I got hurt before I even had a chance to go to those schools or rip

[OneViewpoint]

@oncewildtwiceburned,

You're pathetic. A disgrace. The only ass you're kicking at this point is your own. I was right. You're divorced because you deserve to be divorced. Thanks for confirming my suspicions about you. I'll let you get on with failing at life.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Thank you sir! 🫡

[Anonymous]

I'd say they both do. I don't think either of them are wrong till they're used in a radical way.

The 4B's 1. do not date men (no problem here). 2. Do not marry men (no problem here). 3. Do not have sex with men (no problem here). 4. Do not have children with men (no problem here).

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Thanks for your input

[Dargil]

MGTOW His men retreating from reality. there are far better alternatives than becoming Incel. We just have to look harder for better women. And there are plenty out there

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Pushing the creativity and ingenuity of man to the limits.

[Filthy_Immigrant]

dude MGTOW is dead, we are not as cool as we used to be in the 2010s. so 4B takes the cake since its about women and just a variant of feminism; which has been around for centuries

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Feminism itself is around 150 years old

[Filthy_Immigrant]

exactly and they got the audacity to use to tell us to "shut up a go your own way already" whenever we expressed our dislikes. but oh well at least our goals aren't dead

[In_Trance]

Both are dumb shit that doesn't matter

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Sure, disappearing cultures and civilizations, world war looming and already kicking off and the future being reshaped by psychopathic billionaires from legacy families isn’t anything that matters. Might makes right, right?
Your nihilism and narcissism are reflective of the general population and the heart of the problem.

[In_Trance]

The fact that you're as brainwashed as you are is reflective of the general population and the heart of the problem.
World war... LOLOL. there's no world war. Bookmark that retarded response and look back on it in years to come and you'll realize what a complete pylon you sound like.
wait... no... you probably won't

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Brother, I already have shrapnel in my body and I’m 38. Also nearly 700,000 Slavic men and maybe 50-200k slavic/russian/Ukrainian women and kids have died in war just these last 2 years, not to mention the common African turmoils and Cartel violence.

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Oh and the Middle East and Israel drawing the world into their fight as per usual.

[DrPepper12]

Huh?

[Oncewildtwiceburned]

Clueless as usual

[DrPepper12]

What?

[Anonymous]

MGTOW of course. Fuck feminism.