Is being a liberal (but NOT a leftist) going to be even possible in modern society moving forward?

[blueonblack22]

In the last few years I’ve been a lot more careful about throwing out the term “liberal” in a derogatory context. Reason being there is very fine line between being a liberal vs. being a leftist.

A classical liberal is about being “liberated” from societal constraints and control. In other words smoke what you want to smoke, dress how you want to dress, marry who you want to marry, etc.

You have the freedom to make these choices and not have the government constrain you. However this also gives other people the full freedom to change their opinion about your choices. As long as they aren’t physically assaulting you, openly discriminating (e. g. flat out saying you can’t work for them, use their business, etc) they still have a right to have a negative opinion about you. Negative opinions about other people’s choices are not “discrimination”.

A leftist on the other hand is a completely different story. Leftists want to use authoritarian control to cram down their POVs and ideologies via the government. This includes censorship, tax payer funded ideologically partisan “education” programs, racial and gender discrimination in the work force in the name of “equality”, etc. They often scream about fighting fascism but they themselves are the real fascists.

I have no problem with a classical liberal (in many ways I am one). But are they a dying breed it today’s western culture?

Updates

1 y

Just to note I didn’t ask this question to start the good ole “Trump this” and “democrats that” fight we are all more than used to. I’m sick of that bs.

I am actually a moderate conservative but I’ve been calling out some of my fellow conservatives about the “liberal” vs “leftist” label. Most use those phrases interchangeably like it’s no big deal.

But semantics DO matter. Especially if you criticize somehow who is liberal but NOT necessarily a true leftist. Those people still exist.

Updates

1 y

Thanks for everybody’s feedback. While a part of me regrets asking this question (given how many people misinterpreted it) but I’m still glad I brought it up.

Reason being I am going to have a different approach to someone who is “live and let live” and just minds their own business vs. someone who wants to use brute force to push their ideologies on an entire society. And it’s important to accurate describe these two types of people. It’s distinguishing a honeybee vs a yellow jacket.

[Lliam]

@blueonblack22
That's a great question and you gave a very good description. Having what I call 1960s-'70s liberal values, I struggle with it, too.

I support peace, tolerance, open mindedness, fairness, liberty and freedom. I distrust authority and oppose war and aggression.

Those values do not describe modern leftism. But I would never describe myself as a conservative, either. I wouldn't even describe myself as a centrist because that implies a spectrum between only two choices. I do not fit in a box.

For example, I marched for the civil rights movement. I supported the United Farm Workers and Native Americans. I always supported women's rights, including Roe v Wade. I supported gay marriage. And I always supported First and Second Amendments, the Bill of Rights and the inherent rights of individuals as described in the Declaration of Independence.
I'll add that I oppose the militant LGBTQI+ movement and believe in biological sexes, not this new, imaginary, "gender" crap.

On the. political spectrum, I fall somewhere in the left-libertarian (libertarian-socialist) camp.

Basically,, I think for myself. I develop opinions on individual issues based on information. I modify or change my opinions as I learn more. I do entertain so-called "conspiracy theories" because conspiracy theorists are just researchers and fact checkers who question official narratives.
I an not influenced by politicians, mainstream media or consensus. I am not an ideologue, a sheep, or a member of a political club/cult.

I get along really well with most modern conservatives. It's modern leftists that I don't get along with.
I get along best with other people like me who have thrown off the shackles of credulity, who resist authoritarianism, who are well informed, question everything and seek truth, however uncomfortable the truth may be,

I don't wear my political identity like a flag. I think labels are divisive and unhelpful. They are used to stereotype and make assumptions about people. They cause bigotry and make it difficult to find common ground.
People are complex. They are not stereotypes.

[blueonblack22]

@Lliam you are the true definition of a classical liberal. And yes your generation was more like this.

But I believe there was always a sociopathic minority of “liberals” who actually used the struggle for equality as a cover for ulterior purposes: power and control. These people never truly cared about equality but used that veneer for own ends. They are leftists and they gotten exponentially worse in the last few years.

Anyway this is the MHO I was looking for. But I am really disappointed how this question went over a lot of people’s heads. Not a good sign for society.

[blueonblack22]

And good response @Lliam. You are literally the only person who truly understood the point I was trying to make here.

[Caroline91]

@Lliam I love it when I find someone who actually thinks for themself and then puts it into practice.

[blueonblack22]

@Caroline91 me too. And you are also one of the few people who can do this.

But it all comes down to mental effort. Most people want to take mental shortcuts because it hurts too much to think.

[Caroline91]

@blueonblack22 We meet again... lol. Thank you for such a nice compliment. Sometimes it actually does hurt to think. And it certainly seems as if these past few years have required more effort than previously!

[blueonblack22]

@Caroline91 people feel attacked. And given our polarized culture people are getting forced to choose a side. Even silent people who never talk about politics are have been put on the spot and antagonized (the year 2020 blew this out of the water).

However I’ve noticed a slow change back to normalcy in the last 6 months. I’m (very) cautiously optimistic.

I think a growing minority of people have are starting to realize they are losing things that matter most in life i. e. family, friends, relationships, etc. over politics. It hits them later after the adrenaline rush wears off. Not all of them unfortunately. But some people are noticing it.

[Caroline91]

@blueonblack22. I know I've been walking a very careful line with friends and colleagues. And the constant balancing act has been exhausting, especially when I am so deeply angry about so much of it all... the descent into name calling instead of listening and trying to understand each other, the unwillingness on the part of so many people to even try to find a middle ground where we can all meet, the attitude of having to be right at all costs, the sheer venom coming from so many unexpected places, etc., etc. I have been an optimist all of my life, but I'm not able to come back to it yet in regard to our country, or the world. Here's hoping, bc I really prefer to live my life that way, which is my natural inclination.

[blueonblack22]

@Caroline91 there are more insidious forces behind a lot of this. A lot of people are completely unaware that China is working 24/7 to divide us internally. I read a good book called “Blood Money” that went into horrifying detail about the PRC is doing to our culture.

But we’ve also done this to ourselves. Digital and social media has created echo chambers. Besides GAG (much less nowadays I’m too busy) and LinkedIn I’ve all but given up on FB and IG. I’m too busy with my professional life anyway.

Anyway all I know is you will NEVER win someone over by insulting them. Disagreeing with someone isn’t the same as insulting them though (many people can’t tell the difference). And whoever throws at a label first is usually the more ignorant / lower IQ person first. Especially if that’s their opening response.

For my own peace of mind I’ve cut out people who are obsessed about politics. Still say hello to them but I won’t engage them. This includes a neighbor who hung up a very provocative flag a few doors down from me. I won’t be nasty to her or anything. But I avoid her. Because the fact she was willing to do that says a lot about her state of mind.

[Shiprex]

Sound more like a libertarian than liberal because the "do as you please" and say what you like without consequences isn't liberal.

Liberal is more about liberating those who aren't afforded the same privileges as those who were born into wealth and have the means and power to affect others and making sure they get opportunities to socially mobile.

[blueonblack22]

Thank you for your feedback.

[blueonblack22]

Just to note you did bring up a good point about libertarian vs. liberal. But notice how I used the phrase CLASSIC liberalism.

[Shiprex]

These terms and groupings change though over time so using contemporary terms would be more useful

[Anonymous]

They both have very similar absurd way of thinking. Like going crazy and crying because someone said mam to a female who says she’s “trapped” in the wrong body. Psychos being supported by more psychos. That’s one Of the many reasons Trump won. Even those of us who are not right/ republicans who don’t agree with everything Trump is doing, we all saw he was by far the better candidate even if we still today do not agree with most things, supporting Israel for one, but that’s something the leaders of the left were already doing and would continued to do. So all in all Trump was and still is by far the best choice considering the opposing side. Which is awful really.

why the liberal left has lost their minds is anybody’s guess but thank god they didn’t win. 🤢

I mean even just now look at all the retards throwing rocks 🪨 at the officers like lunatics and waving the flags of other countries 🤦‍♀️🤯

can the left really be that stupid?

Why would they think anyone would want to support that? It’s psychotic mentality and liberals and the left both share.

[Caroline91]

Well, as a liberal leaning moderate... I hope to God it is going to be possible. But in actuality I think it may be many years before the pendulum swings back again. I'm not comfortable with either extreme and I think both not only have their pitfalls, but can be outright dangerous to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[blueonblack22]

We need to accurately define what the problem is. Again semantics matter. Words have power.

When you tell people you are a liberal they are likely going to assume your favor of radical leftism (you don’t seem like that type to me). Just like when I tell people I’m a moderate conservative they automatically assume I’m a MAGA nut.

This question was actually to call out other conservatives to stop using the phrase “liberal” when they are criticizing leftist insanity. Classic liberalism isn’t about government authoritarianism and forced ideologies.

[slatyb]

Censorship? Government censorship in the US has always come from the right. I think by censorship you are referring to broad disapproval by the educated class. Sometimes it can be a bit sloganeering, but generally it's a rejection of intolerance for other people.

[blueonblack22]

It’s true the censorship used be a conservative approach decades ago. Especially during the Vietnam war.

But in modern times who gets to decide what is “intolerant” vs. what’s acceptable for free speech and expression? A coterie of so-called “educated” (or more accurately indoctrinated) elitists? So they are the ultimate moral judges on what is right or wrong?

[slatyb]

I presume you are complaining about censorship by privately owned platforms. See that word "private"? The owners of those sites get to decide what they will allow. If you don't like it, you can create your own site -- oh wait, it's called "Truth Social". You can post whatever you like there. That's the thing about freedom of speech -- you can say it, but you can't make anyone listen.

[blueonblack22]

@slatyb the owners of those platforms were under pressure by the federal government to removed so called “misinformation”. But misinformation is not the same thing as DISinformation (semantics matter here too). It’s an ambiguous phrase that’s open to interpretation and opinion.

[slatyb]

What's your point? The government can make suggestions, but they don't control social media. You still haven't shown any censorship from the left. If you don't like Meta and YouTube then don't use them.

[blueonblack22]

Why is that in recent years government agencies always seemed to make “suggestions” (which is like having the mafia make “suggestions”) in one direction and almost never the other?

That’s not to say I want the exact opposite. I just want the truth. And don’t expect me to trust a coterie of elitists who can’t even define what a woman is. There is a difference between being “educated” vs. indoctrinated.

[slatyb]

If you are looking for the truth, you won't find it on social media platforms. A few of the posters will provide references to reputable sources, where you can find the truth. Of course your standards for sources are probably quite different from mine.

[blueonblack22]

Well you won’t find the truth in the legacy mass media either. For the record I never watch Fox News by the way. Also I’ve seen the truth my own eyes. From be forced at work to take mandatory DEI training that outright “educated” us that gender is “socially” created to seeing leftist polices literally destroy my home state with more crime, homelessness, in your face radicalism, urban decay and fentanyl addiction.

But again this entire question was never supposed to be republican vs democrat bs. In actually was chastising fellow conservatives to be more careful about the labels they throw out. Most believe liberal means the same thing as leftist and it doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, liberal doesn't really describe many people who fashion themselves as liberal today. I agree with that. But at the same time, it is just a word and words can have many different meanings. I suspect 50 years from now there will be people who call themselves liberal, even if it does not technically describe them.

[blueonblack22]

Word choice does matter. It does have power.

I’ve met real life liberals who are NOT leftists. But when they identify as liberal people assume their own board with all the other insanity.

Then I’ve met leftists (look how slatyb’s response) who inaccurately identify as “liberal”. Using the government authoritarianism to force ideologies isn’t “liberal”.

[blueonblack22]

*they are on board

[SmokinAces2000]

“This includes censorship, tax payer funded ideologically partisan “education” programs, racial and gender discrimination in the work force in the name of “equality”, etc.”


So what’s your idea of censorship, education programs, and racial and gender discrimination in the work force?

[Anonymous]

Reds can label all they want. The rest of the parties aren't listening. Especially after this last election. They simply do not matter.

[blueonblack22]

You both misread and misunderstood the point I was trying to make. Which shouldn’t surprise me given our current political climate. But this wasn’t a red vs blue question.

And for the record the democrat party has a historically low record approval rating right now. Which should come as no surprise given they keep pushing liberals to be all out leftists. Not every liberal is a leftist. Which is the entire point I was trying to make. But the DNC just can’t face the ugly reality when it comes to that. That’s one of the key reasons they lost the 2024 election. They can’t even define what a woman is.

[beefcakebradybatson]

We progressives are going to take back the world, one country at a time.

[Pterodon]

Have fun with that

[beefcakebradybatson]

@Pterodon We will, watching all the reactionary a**holes go back to their sewers.

[Pterodon]

The voters rejected your progressive agenda remember?

[Caroline91]

@beefcakebradybatson Why? Each country needs to be allowed to decide it's own course as long as it is not attacking other countries or large scale killing its own people. Stick to your own country and let others have theirs.

[blueonblack22]

@beefcakebradybatson you know for somebody who claims to have an IQ of 160+ you did a rather poor job comprehending what I was really asking about in my question.

[beefcakebradybatson]

@Pterodon Barely, and most will (belatedly) come to their senses in the mid-terms and (hopefully;America doesn't need President Beardo !!!) in 2028 !!!

[DrPepper12]

No. Not at all

[blueonblack22]

+1 for honesty

[Pterodon]

Liberal and leftist are the same to me

[blueonblack22]

In modern times those phrases are interchangeable. But words do matter. There is a difference.

[Pterodon]

No there isn’t. You both want God removed from everything. You’re both pro abortion. You’re both anti gun. You both hate women’s sports you both value illegal criminals over American citizens and you think there are more than two genders and love fags

[msc545]

@Pterodon Sort of presumptuous of you to tell others what they do and do not believe.

I am a leftist and a liberal, and I don't approve of abortion (I believe it is murder), I don't mind guns (although walking around with them for the purpose of intimidating people is very wrong), I don't hate women's sports, I don't value criminals over anyone else (although what you deem criminal is not the same as what I think it is), I think there are only two genders, and I have the same respect for gay people as I do for others.

All that said, your lack of empathy and ethics disgusts me.

[blueonblack22]

@Pterodon I’m a moderate conservative and I feel your aggravation on all this. I to used to throw out the labels liberal and leftist interchangeably.

But they really do have different definitions. That’s why I’m more careful about the term especially when I am criticizing it. People are not 100% one way or another. But given our bipartisan political system more and more are like “you are either this or you are that”.

I’ve suffered discrimination because of those mental short cut prejudices. Doing my best to better evaluate other people before launching off on a label.

[blueonblack22]

@msc545 I actually believe global warming is a real problem. But it is something we need to ADAPT vs. using radicalism to prevent it (which is impossible at this point).

[blueonblack22]

*adapt to

[BarryLiverstone]

Yes.